Current classes/jobs are too simple

Well, yes, it's a bit like juggling (skill rotations) and dancing (handling mechanics) at the same time, though I don't that's necessarily a bad thing. I think it's a bit strange that you would try and think of them as separate.

To make my own comparison; if you think about it, fighting games are similar in a way. The combos are essentially skill rotations: memorized and executed without really putting much thought into it. Of course, the dancing is very different between the two genres. Still I don't think you could really break fighting games down to doing combos on the training dummy and then playing rock-paper-scissors with the live opponent without losing something in the process.

I suppose this is all just to say that the combat is more than just the sum of its parts.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

"Opportunities" basically means you want optional mechanics. This...kinda already exists. For example, the rocks in Garuda HM are now considered "optional." The pillars in the Fenrir fight are technically optional, as you can survive without them.

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All optional mechanics are from overgeared faceroll battles. Unfortunately, all the current content have hard enrages that leave reduce the options to "Must do" or "Ignore" , rather than running out of resources or soft enrage

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

or stance dance manual micromanage scholar

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I already do this, and its probably the only job that I find somewhat fun.




About the difficulty stuff: it can be a new class/job and not a change to the current ones.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

No. not complete RNG for every attack, but add more than one attack pattern.

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Like I said, many bosses already do this, but they go a step forward and have the "randomness" on every pull rather than every instance. They just don't have MANY attack patterns, and most of them are reserved for EX primals and Coil.
And again, they TRIED having full RNG attack patterns, but even their testers had too much difficulty with them, so they yanked them from the "core" and made it into Savage Coil.
What you want is a fight to be completely different each time you zone in...which creates a problem: "Save scumming."
If one pattern is preferred over another, a team will exit and re-enter until they get the one that's easiest to deal with. Especially if they're as drastically different as you're implying you want them to be.
In the end, you'd just see forum posts complaining about how X version is impossible, Y version is too easy, and no one wants to do Z version because it's not Y version. If it's in the DF, people will complain about people bailing when Z pattern shows up and calling them pansies for not wanting "a challenge."

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Originally Posted by Zfz

There's absolutely no difference to the rotation of a Paladin whether in Sword Oath or Shield Oath. We have one and only one combo.

That said, the strength of the Paladin is in its simplicity. Anyone who wants a more "interesting" tank job should play WAR. It's just how the jobs are designed.

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Going sword oath at times gives one a lot more to think about, than hitting 1,2,3. And agreed on war xD

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Originally Posted by Neclinesh

If a tank ever did this while I am healing, especially a Warrior, I will cancel all casting, dismiss my fairy, and let him die just a little faster.

Me thinks you didn't exactly think through this comment entirely. :D

-Balls

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Why do you think tanks can pull 350-400 dps? They certainly don't do it in shield oath/defiance. And in the same parses, scholars can be seen to be still doing good dps. Seen a recent t10 parse with pld doing 400+, sch doing 400+ and war doing like 350. Sure it's probably the greatest example of overplay ever but there it is.

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

DPS: MNK (positioning- dodge) > SMN (pay attention to DoT timers, egi managment, batlle res and mp) > DRG (alternate combos- dodge) > BRD (CD optimzation - songs at the righ time) > NIN (mundras are prolly the only thing- dodge easier than other melees cuz the extra speed) > BLM (simple rotation - pay attention to insta stuff)
)

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are you insane?
ninja easier than dragoon and bard? with al the trouble tie to the mudra? seriously? bard have no combo, no positioning.... what it's hard to play with bard?
and about the dragoon is always the same stuff, they have even take out the positioning from the combo... making far easier to play of all the melee class.

seriously dude you haven't play a loot ninja in high level dungeon for say this.

I'd say it's nin>bard>drg now. Dragoon is very very easy to play now. Mudra lag for Europeans makes it particularly hard to play nin too.

And I'd probably say BLM is hardest of all to pull peak dps on in movement heavy fights. My blm friend doing 510+ with 125 relic in t11 is insane...

More than during combat, I'd rather see more complexity outside of it through some job and skill customization and a deeper stat management.

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

More than during combat, I'd rather see more complexity outside of it through some job and skill customization and a deeper stat management.

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I agree. I wanna see a spec system where one class/job can be more than one role in the game.

Who dind't want to dps as warrior or as a dark knight?

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Losses due to not knowing mechanics are annoying, but acceptable.
Losses due to RNG are infuriating.
There are already bosses that have RNG in their attack patterns. Such as t10's final phase. Or Savage t8.
The problem is you need to balance RNG usage with actual skill. If you use RNG for boss mechanics, there will end up being victories due to luck, not actual skill. Employing patterns means that the victories are legitimate. Thus, the RNG is never used more than between a set of mechanics tested to actually be doable. For example, target selection for t10's prey, Scylla's tethers, most of t9's mechanics, etc.

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Losses due to RNG may be frustrating, but the easy accessibility of instances in this game make it a pretty small issue. If a boss uses an OMGWTFBBQ devastating and resource-taxing move six times due to RNG when it generally only uses it twice on average, yeah, it's not fair - but you can be pretty confident that you can go right back in and the next time the fight will likely be more managable.

Eliminating RNG altogether, though... I've heard Titan Ex described as "Battletoads the MMO", and it is SO true. A scripted attack pattern that never changes or varies (with the minor exception that Landslides and Weights may target different individuals each time), very tight timing in order to avoid mechanics or die... Definitely reminiscent of that old Nintendo game. I'm not sure I'm comfortable equating the ability to memorize attack patterns with "legitimacy".

In my mind, the best kind of RNG is stuff where you never know what's coming, but can learn the proper way to respond to it when it happens. OMGWTFBBQ moves should not be PURE RNG, in that they can appear multiple times in a row, or unusually frequently or infrequently, but setting them up so you can't predict exactly when the boss is going to lay them down is fine.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I agree. I wanna see a spec system where one class/job can be more than one role in the game.

Who dind't want to dps as warrior or as a dark knight?

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Oh, my God, can you imagine the Duty Finder queues if this was possible?
Number of Warriors queued in Duty Finder: 96
Number of Warriors queued in Duty Finder as DPS: 92
Number of Warriors queued in Duty Finder as Tanks: 4
Wheeeeee!