BLM Fire II incredibly lack luster

Tested again. Conditions: 252 natural Piety, no party buff, no non-GCDs used, no food buffs, no one else attacking. I attacked the three dummies in Dragonhead so all three were hit. I timed each test precisely 5 minutes, give or take a GCD.

Blizzard II spam
327 DPS
Total Overall Damage: 96,647
Damage Crit Percent: 17.34%

Fire III > Fire II X N > Blizzard III > Blizzard II or wait depending on MP > repeat:
347 DPS
Total Overall Damage: 102,045
Damage Crit Percent: 15.19%

As you can see, for sustained AoE, the Blizzard II method is definitively lower sustained DPS. The Fire II method crit less by chance and it still put out more total damage. However, since most/all AoE situations don't last 5 minutes, I did three smaller tests of one minute each for each method, which is much closer to a sac pull AoE situation or killing the T4 bugs.

Blizzard II

328 DPS
18,959 total damage

323 DPS
18,667 total damage

330 DPS
19,087 total damage

Fire III > Fire II X N > Blizzard III > Blizzard II with MP, wait without > repeat:

403 DPS
23,054 total damage

366 DPS
20,268 total damage

344 DPS
20,978 total damage

The DPS was slightly off since the timing wasn't set in stone on my begin and end time, being roughly a GCD apart. Sorry about that. Anyway, I think it's pretty safe to say that Blizzard II spam is not the highest DPS for AoE, but if anyone wants to take more accurate tests, be my guest.

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Originally Posted by faceroll

Incorrect
you're calculating the DPS
you're not calculating how fast the group dies.
the groups effective hp is 10,000, so they die faster.
:)

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Please stoping cutting out my math which proves I am right.....it is very frustrating and secondly, you are missing the point.

320 dps across the collective which is 30k hp = 30'000hp collectively / 320 dps = 93.75 seconds. Again, I did not raise this point I was merely touching on it, however

is the same as:

320dps / 3 mobs = 106.6dps per mob = 10'000hp per mob / 106.6dps = 93.8 seconds.

This is calculating AoE damage.......some of you people really need to learn how to read....

Lastly, how fast a mob dies is how DPS is calculated. If you had no indication of a sessions timeframe there would be no way to measure it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

like it was said, the break point for make the AoE be better is 4-5 monster, below is not worth...

but that another subject ^^

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Actually, 3 enemies is the break point for BLM, and I imagine most classes. I do roughly 280~ DPS on a single target and up to 350+ DPS on multiple, and that's not counting Double Flare™ to kill a trash mob from 30% or so.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Actually, 3 enemies is the break point for BLM, and I imagine most classes. I do roughly 280~ DPS on a single target and up to 350+ DPS on multiple, and that's not counting Double Flare™ to kill a trash mob from 30% or so.

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The breakpoints of each class boil down to the amount of AoE DPS they can shell out.

I still believe based of my findings that 4 is the minimum for BLM with 5+ maximizing it.

Its laughable about how you guys are arguing over this using the wrong AoE rotation as the base of the argument. the proper rotation for BLM AoE is bliz 3 > fire 3 > flare >bliz 2 >bliz 2 > fire 3 >flare. which has you doing AFIII flare every 7ish seconds if done correctly. other words putting out 3.6-6k+ dmg every 8-10secs depending on crits. I would really love to see a BLM be able to put out that much damage that fast using ST DPS. if by chance you can't do blizzard 2 (which you can on any thing that matters atm) then blizzard 3 can easily takes its place.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Its laughable about how you guys are arguing over this using the wrong AoE rotation as the base of the argument. the proper rotation for BLM AoE is bliz 3 > fire 3 > flare >bliz 2 >bliz 2 > fire 3 >flare. which has you doing AFIII flare every 7ish seconds if done correctly. other words putting out 3.6-6k+ dmg every 8-10secs depending on crits. I would really love to see a BLM be able to put out that much damage that fast using ST DPS.

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I was merely using their numbers to demonstrate what you are referring too.

I wouldn't mind seeing a decently geared BLM ST rotation DPS tbh.

Lets try this from a systematic potency based approach, and kinda chop it up into ST and AoE components...
So:
B3 = 1 gcd, 154 (potency) x 1 (target)
B1 = 1 gcd, 150 x 1
F3 = 1 gcd, 154 x 1
B2 = 1 gcd, 100 x N
F2 = 1.2 gcd, 180 x N
Flare = 1.6 gcd, 468 x N

Possible Rotations:
1. B3, Wait 1.5 ticks, F3, F2 x 4 - repeat
8.3 gcd’s, 308 x 1 + 720 x N, ~ 37.1 x 1 + 86.7 x N

2. B3, Wait 1 tick, B1 or B2, F3, F2 x 4 - repeat
8.8 gcd’s, 308 x 1 + 820 x N, ~ 35 x 1 + 93.2 x N in melee (B2) or 52 x 1 + 81.8 x N at range (B1)

3. B3, F3, F2 x 2 - repeat
4.4 gcd’s, 308 x 1 + 360 x N, ~ 70 x 1 + 81.8 x N (this isn’t stable or particularly efficient)

4. B3, F3, F2 x 3, Flare (Transpose), Wait 1 tick - repeat
1.4+(1 or 1.4)+1.2x3+1.6+1 = ~8.6-9 gcd’s, 308 x 1 + 1008 x N, ~35.8 x 1 + 117.2 x N or 34.2 x 1 + 112 x N (no quick F3)

5. B2... 1 gcd, 100 x N... its 100 x N...

Analysis:

So first and foremost, you MUST get in 2 ticks of regen after B3. This is shown in rotation 3, where I only got 1 tick of regen, sometimes none 0.o and could only get off 2 F2's per rotation. However the total mana reserve does gradually increase, so eventually you can cast a 3rd F2... but then you dont have enough mana for B3... So rotation 3 is not that great...
Now this is where some of the arguments of this thread come in. Rotations 1/2 vs 4 vs 5.

R1 = 86.7 pot/gcd in aoe.
R2 in melee (B2 after tick) = 93.2
But R2 at range is down to 81.8... the same as the "less than ideal" R3.
Now R5, is really the single most stable rotation possible... but you MUST be in melee... R5 is 100 pot/gcd in aoe, 7% higher than R2 in melee... and both need you to be in melee.
And lastly R4... yes my order needs work =P... R4 is considered (by some) as the "proper" BLM aoe rotation. Yes, it does have a dead period right after Flare, but simply put, Flare in terms of pot/gcd is 2.9x stronger than B2 and 2.3x stronger than F2. This pushes it up above every other rotation in terms of DPS output, AND you never have to be in melee.

Conclusion:

For long fights with many high hp targets, R4 wins out. Especially when we start throwing in multi-Flare tricks, or have a bard playing Manasong... I "believe" that 2 ticks of Manasong is enough to cast Flare.
For shorter fights with lower hp targets, or more likely, towards the END of a fight where mobs are dying, R4 is better.
For Flare to go off, without Swiftcast, we need our target to survive for 4 seconds. If mobs are dropping, then there's a chance it'll die JUST before Flare would go off, and we wasted 1.6 gcds. At that point, it is better to run into the middle, if its safe, and begin spamming B2 to just finish things off.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Its laughable about how you guys are arguing over this using the wrong AoE rotation as the base of the argument. the proper rotation for BLM AoE is bliz 3 > fire 3 > flare >bliz 2 >bliz 2 > fire 3 >flare. which has you doing AFIII flare every 7ish seconds if done correctly. other words putting out 3.6-6k+ dmg every 8-10secs depending on crits. I would really love to see a BLM be able to put out that much damage that fast using ST DPS. if by chance you can't do blizzard 2 (which you can on any thing that matters atm) then blizzard 3 can easily takes its place.

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Out of curiosity, wouldn't it be better to utilize Fire 2 then pop Flare at >250mp?
Just trying to understand it since my BLM just recently hit 50.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Out of curiosity, wouldn't it be better to utilize Fire 2 then pop Flare at >250mp?
Just trying to understand it since my BLM just recently hit 50.

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Mainly the speed of it. Takes around 8-10secs to cast it without fire 2. and 20-23 secs with fire 2. basically abusing the system. which allows you to cast 2 spells while under umbral ice 3. cutting flares cast time from 3.78 to 1.84. while giving it the power of Astral fire 3.

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Originally Posted by Taemek

I was merely using their numbers to demonstrate what you are referring too.

I wouldn't mind seeing a decently geared BLM ST rotation DPS tbh.

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I think the confusion stems from the fact that all of the rotations in the OP are meant to compare aoe damage. Not single target. Fire 2 is an aoe spell, but it drains a fair amount of MP per use and it does significantly less damage without full astral fire buffs. So it requires a fair amount of single target spell use to use it consistently which is why it has 3 different rotations in the OP and blizzard 2 has one.

Nothing in the OP was ever supposed to compare AOE dps with single target dps.