Please implement something to teach players how to play

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

The whole argument of this thread is about why people that only use 2-3 skills of their whole loadout in level 70+ content and refuse to do anything more than that are in the wrong since they're actively hindering the rest of the playerbase.

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Funny, I read the Original Post (and theme for the thread) as "I'm frustrated at max level players who aren't as good as me in playing this game. I think there should be mandatory training to force them to get as good as me" in a sorta Re-education Camps are a Good Thing sort of way.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Funny, I read the Original Post (and theme for the thread) as "I'm frustrated at max level players who aren't as good as me in playing this game. I think there should be mandatory training to force them to get as good as me" in a sorta Re-education Camps are a Good Thing sort of way.

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Oh I mistook this whole thread then lol

I thought it was just calling out people that refuse to do even mildly acceptable rotations.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

To the people who want to teach, and harder content in the base game, and dailies. Do you all understand just what that would lead too? I don't think you do. Players will always game the system, and will always take the shortest route, and or gatekeep players that does not meet your standards. Do you understand just how toxic the game would become? Wow mythic is proof of that, but lets not even talk wow. We seen in this game itself how people gate classes before, and what players do when harder content becomes the normal.

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This is true. But IMHO it is more the fault of the game mechanics/class design that players start gatekeeping other players. In WoW this toxic behavior started already with Tbc when the badges gear/wellfare epics came out. Suddenly the tanks had to have 20k HP or more for a simple heroic 5-man instance even when 10k HP were enough. My tank paladina had "only" 16k HP because i had more avoidance stats on my gear and i did not stack hitpoints and i found hardly a group for 5-man heroics. And the funny thing was, many instances were with an avoidance tank far easier than with a 25k HP punching bag tank.


WoW vanilla did not have those problems at all. Because there were no wellfare epics and the classes had far more usefull utility outside of their roles. This is something that i miss in FF14.


The FF14 devs copied many things from WoW WotLK and Cataclysm and the game has the same problems.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Kaylal

These 46 (so far) pages tell me that FFXIV has the same issues as other games when people with different ideas of "how the game should be played" end up in the same group. You get toxicity. And this is why I'm so uncomfortable doing group content. My personality type is that I don't handle confrontations well at all. If I don't group with others, I don't have to face that possibility, so when a game *requires* group content to continue the story line, I get all hesitant and have to pluck up the courage to dive into DF to get the dungeon done.

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I have not been to your server, but I know the one that I am on is relatively okay. A smattering of different people. For the most part it is not bad, there is always that one occasion that may cause me to sigh heavily, but those are usually few and far in between the good stuffs. You could be playing with anyone and have luck different than my own, so unsure if 'toxic elitism' is something you should be worried about. I have gotten maybe two of those my whole time playing, and one was yelling at the sprout healers in the duty for the first time to lb3 because they were on the floor the entire battle, so we could not make the dps check. There they were though, on the floor, getting angry, but there is not much you could do than tell them to chill out, and if not vote kick if they do not rapid pull as a black mage in Titania. The other was someone telling people to watch a youtube guide and read a wiki, but they were shot down super fast by the rest of the raid group because they were being a jerk to people who just wished for a quick primer for mechanics on their first time.

The rest of my experiences have been fine, you will get some odd people sometimes, or silent people. I think most of the super elitists have been told to stop being jerks and gtfo at least in my datacenter. If someone seems like they are being rude or acting horribly other will tell them to tone it down, or stop being an idiot. They usually go and hide in their caves after this and never resurface.

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Originally Posted by Tithian

You should understand that the people frequenting the forums and the experiences they describe typically do not represent the attitude and experience of the average player.

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Aye, I suppose it could depend on your luck or datacenter, but most posts bring out the worst, and some use it to vent about horrible experiences as an outlet. Most of the time if your by your lonesome it feels better to speak with others and vent rather than scream into a pillow and shout at the clouds >.<

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

I wish the research I had done, did not make this super clear in one second why someone may be salty, such as they. There are other datacenters out there, with similar like-minded individuals Ralph, there is still time for you to make the switch to Crystal.

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Fricken Rinhi is absolutely hilarious! A fellow "evil" lala through and through. Have you seen Ralph's other posts? Their forum signature? The umm.. lodestone entry?

"Something something video game designed to be beaten and anyone who craves a challenge from video game evil bad self centered person unga bunga."

What the heck else is it supposed to be designed as? The fricken Kobayashi Maru?! Should I feel nothing when vanquishing Dark Souls bosses? No sense of accomplishment because it is a video game? What about DND sessions. The GM is supposed to lose eventually or the story cannot continue. Should every one of Ralph's sessions be TPKs or we are not achieving anything.. Sheeesh I am glad I do not think this way. Life would be most unenjoyable if I did.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Funny, I read the Original Post (and theme for the thread) as "I'm frustrated at max level players who aren't as good as me in playing this game. I think there should be mandatory training to force them to get as good as me" in a sorta are a Good Thing sort of way.

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Waaaaaat? How did your mind twist story tutorial missions as Re-education Camps? Are you alright? This is a new one for me.. Asylum Demon now Re-education Camp leader. I mean he is called the Asylum Demon. I am positively certain the first Dark Souls boss is not designed to make sure players are ready for preceding challenges or anything noooooo.

Here, allow me to phrase in more easily digestible way.
Did ya'll forget this aint no single player game or something? Your subpar performance in duty finder effects others around you and no the solution is not "well don't use duty finder". I may not pay your sub but I do pay mine.

That is like if half the crew on a ship performed only fifty percent of their duties. The ship would sink if the other half did not perform at 150%. No one wishes to drown so the others simply pick up the slack until the dead weight can be dealt with. You know what? Nevermind. There is no point and this thread is killing me with the laughter.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Oh bless your heart.

And the Flames Went Higher

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I mean sure, I don't think anyone would not care tools like this happen, My issue is when people want the MSG to gate unskilled people..or to make DF dungeons harder. I'm just like ehhhh? Even if we add these tools. The player base won't gain skill. Because most players just play and have fun. They will not use it because they don't need it.

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No one will be gate kept from the msq, though making things a one shot never taught me how to use my cooldowns. I just blow all of my cooldowns for Daddy Nero because it has become a tradition now started by some beautiful person who told me I should blow my cooldowns for Nero, so he feels like the fight was more intense and important. I think they should just make dungeons have levels so some could go through story mode, or veteran, or mastermode depending for that particular function.

People who want to learn through playing the game would use the tutorial or reworking of class quests as a tool to learn stuff they may wish to learn on their own without 3 other people. The hall of novice is okay, but it didn't address anything I wished to actually know about my class I was playing any of the times I went through there. The dps one is kill the things, do mechanics, possibly fail it because the healer ai never healed the tank because she decided to get caught in a esuna loop and was cleansing the tank over and over and forgot to heal them. I am a black mage, I can't heal for them, so I played it safe and went in as summoner because there is only so much you can expect from the ai/npcs in early content.

I would honestly happy with anything, maybe just a side solo dungeon that you can go through early on before sastasha. I suppose we do not NEED it, but I know some who would wish for this content, maybe show the hud elements I didn't notice when I first started to play. The white line above cleansable debuffs, aggro meter, and what an interruptible boss spell looks like. Would no one honestly be able to pass or wish for anything like this maybe so they don't feel extra nervous their first time doing any role in their first dungeon?

I am ready! I am going to do it! I will make an entire SOCIAL NETWORK! I will name it.....FINALBOOK. It will be like Apple....it will 'Just Work™'

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Originally Posted by Tithian

You should understand that the people frequenting the forums and the experiences they describe typically do not represent the attitude and experience of the average player. I levelled recently White Mage entirely through the Duty Finder and not once did I encounter those mythical beings in the OP, that couldn't figure left from right. Everyone was helpful and understanding when fails happened, people gave advice and guided groups successfully, gave sprout tanks the space to find their own speed etc. Vote kicks have gone out only to people that DC, and no one was stressing about completion times as long as the content was being done. The occasional wipe was never demoralizing and never did it lead to shouting matches throwing blame around.

You should not let the attitude of a fraction of a minority on the forums dissuade you from progressing your MSQ. If you're coming from WoW, you probably have expectations that the toxicity will be there 100% of the time from at least 1-2 players in the group, this is simply not the case here, and do not let this thread tell you otherwise.

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absolutely no one is saying that the bad apples mentioned in this thread are the average player, as others, including me, have pointed out repeatedly that it's about the players who play bad on purpose but get coddled and defended by parts of the community of the community because "please be nice uwu it doesn't matter if the average 15 minute dungeon takes more than double/triple the time you did everything perfectly fine oVo" etc
I'd say most, if not all, of the "critics" in this thread try to be as helpful as they can be to sprouts and "bad" players whenever they can (I know I am, at least) but posts like yours or others that are similar imply, at least to me, that "we" don't do that and instead just shout abuse at someone performing subpar, which I don't understand

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Originally Posted by Kaylal

These 46 (so far) pages tell me that FFXIV has the same issues as other games when people with different ideas of "how the game should be played" end up in the same group. You get toxicity. And this is why I'm so uncomfortable doing group content. My personality type is that I don't handle confrontations well at all. If I don't group with others, I don't have to face that possibility, so when a game *requires* group content to continue the story line, I get all hesitant and have to pluck up the courage to dive into DF to get the dungeon done.

And that's why as a level 43 Dragoon I'm still stuck at Toto-Rak! I hasten to add that's no-one's fault except mine. :) What I'm hoping to do is demonstrate that sometimes it's not about the level of competence of the player, its about the comfort level and a person's own perception of their competence. Because there's no real way to see how well you're doing. And I don't have a clue how you could do that in-game without causing all sorts of other issues about expected performance from those other "elitist" players. Because those do exist...and I'm very much afraid I'm going to get one or two whenever I have to do group content.

I've rambled enough; I'll shut up now.

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I can understand that you feel like that after reading this thread, but I can assure you that it's unlikely that you'll run into troubles doing or confrontations in DF. It's only really alliance raids where arguments seem to broke out and that's mostly due to kind of players that people have been talking about: players who basically AFK or trolls intent on ruining the fun of everyone
since I started playing last year, I've seen "elitist" toxicity maybe... twice? thrice? in DF dungeons? though I do guess it's because people are not willing to risk their account when they call out the aforementioned "playing badly on purpose" players, so those are usually silently kicked or the rest of the party tries to take their non-existent playing in account for the rest of the dungeon
those "elitist" players almost exclusively do high end content, i.e. extremes, savages and ultimates and are unlikely to do DF content and even if they do, they usually don't say a single word because they just want to be done with it
most of the toxicity you'll run into will be from non-elitists because the tank pulled too much/too little, a dps/healer pulled mobs for the tank or the healer can't keep up with healing due to too many enemies and the tank not using cooldowns or using the wrong skills - if they even heal or tank because something someone has said got their knickers in a twist and they refuse to do their job

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

You seem to need to learn about wow mythic. I could spend all this time teaching you at just how bad it is, how mythic keys and players treat each other because of that system. How the content is design that wants players to be over gear for the content, and how one mistake leads people to be toxic.

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Mate, I PuG keys just fine there. Since Legion, and through BfA and Shadowlands, I've run into 4 bad eggs (two particularly irritable healers back in Legion, a particularly bossy and bullying Boomie back in BfA, and a simultaneously arrogant and thin-skinned tank with horrible awareness who ragequit after backing into a third patrol in Shadowlands). That's out of over 800 runs. I can have some trouble getting accepted on particularly underpowered specs or those which offer little utility. Melee is always impacted from time to time, but such is to be expected on melee-unfriendly affix weeks.

Be both respectful and competent to at least the extent required for the key level you've signed up for, and it'll typically be no more "toxic" than a leveling dungeon here -- far less than your average PuG Savage, or even the typical Extreme trial "clear" group.

I decided to make a DK alt just last week. It hit 60 and I signed up for a +8 the moment I'd finished my Covenant quests -- geared only insofar as was available via MSQ / "welfare gear". I was accepted without a hitch. Ran it without a hitch. The same has been true of each of 8 characters who've gone into M+. It rarely took more than a few applications (e.g. 2-3 minutes of wait) to be accepted for a run even with my raider IO hidden. I could always find a listing with reasonable gear requirements; if the dungeon dropped 184s, I could be accepted at regular dungeon gear levels, especially if I had a ton of utility, and could pull my weight and more.

Emphasis, however, on "competent to at least the extent required for the key level you've signed up for".