Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

Okay, I really don't think anyone here is talking about brand new players or lower level/intro ARR dungeons when we're talking about the standard pull practices. Unless maybe the tank themselves has already cleared 60+ content in which case it should still apply to them.

Looking at your sig and the fact you've only got a PLD at 37 and a WHM at 46 you can largely ignore those people. Yeah, it's probably better if you get used to larger pulls as you get closer to HW content, but it's not necessary for you or other new players. If someone is demanding new players do it in ARR content that's just them being an ass. There's no need to go on a crusade about the new players when no one worth their salt is expecting this of them.

The problem we're having is that people are still pulling small in Expert Roulette content, you know. Max level content. That or they've got multiple level 80s, experience as a tank, etc. and still pull small in lower level content when they have the experience that demonstrates they are well past that introductory stage. It's unacceptable lazy play, and is only serving to waste the time of teammates.

Excessive coddling of players and not holding them up to certain expectations is why we're to seeing so many tanks only pulling small groups, WHMs spamming Cure I in ShB dungeons (SE pls remove Free Cure proc trap), and BLMs that won't use Enochain. No one holds their feet to the fire or are actively derided for doing so to avoid hurting their feelings, and so allowing them to wallow in inadequacy.

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That is the problem though, every dungeon I ran had the expectation of large pulls. And with peoples comments on here saying ALL TANKS, it makes it that much harder. If people mean high level, do not say ALL. Im not on a crusade either, just sharing my experiences, what has been expected of me, and advocating for rescues removal. tlrd: someone tried doing the same thing to me, and it has happen to some of my fc mates. Im tired of being bad mouthed in game by people over something petty

A bit of a pet peeve of mine is seeing people talk on my behalf, when im fully capable of talking. I try to type clear, and fully admit i can have poor word choice. Im not trying to be hostile, or anything. Thing is, I honestly found googling this game to be a pita, the pc i am typing on sucks. It is a laptop from my college days, and not all the keys work, the internet is spotty, the forums is honestly the only thing that really runs and not well. My smart phone sucks as well, it is a discontinued samsung active, and i cant even do video calls much less browse the internet. tlrd: im tired of the cliquey/ hostile attitude i run into. Im tired of people assuming my playstyle thoughts and opinions and using it in aurguments. Also my pc/phone sucks internet pita.

Also:

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Originally Posted by Shalan

The problem we're having is that people are still pulling small in Expert Roulette content, you know. Max level content. That or they've got multiple level 80s, experience as a tank, etc. and still pull small in lower level content when they have the experience that demonstrates they are well past that introductory stage. It's unacceptable lazy play, and is only serving to waste the time of teammates.

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This is the mindset that bugs me as it comes off as a bit E. More so claiming it is lazy, and a waste of time for the group as that is not your call to make. You can only speak for yourself, and claim it wastes your time alone. As it is unfair to the players in question, who may not want to large pull. Having multiple 80s, or being at endgame does not mean skill, though expensive, a player can have every job to level 80 after 1 month of play time through buying skips, and taking advantage of the trust system, fc mates, and daily roulette. tlrd: that is unfair, and comes off cliquey/ hostile. you can only speak for you, not the other party members. (you is said in general)

The smarter way to go about it is to communicate, be more open minded to various levels of skill, and be willing to leave or vote kick. Berating people for not playing how you want is petty, and not fun. Best be an adult and agree to disagree on pull style. as i have said, I personally have done both style and personally have not seen either way as being fast or slow. If the your way or the high way attitude didnt exist, and rescue was not used top force play styles, no one would be having an issue with rescue. (you is said in general).

I have 0 issue with large pulling as long as it is communicated and agreed upon. Having it be an unwritten rule/ expectation is wrong, as it end up with what is going on in game. New players (aka me) expecting to do it as early as lvl 15, and being berated for it if they fail. (had this happen to me a few times)

You are going to run into assholes, I fail to see what the point is? Run into an asshole as you said just leave, they berate you in game ignore them and report then move on.

I am an asshole but this largely seems like a classic you problem. I mean if a group has AoE and the healer is okay with heal spamming and they want large pulls from a level 15 that is on the group. If you are not comfortable with it as you said you are free to leave or try to vote kick the person pushing larger pulls.

People that use rescue as a means to drag the tank along every 2 min are few and far in-between. So if a healer has done it once I think you are making a mountain out if a mole hill, if you ran into different healers that use it multiple times to pull you into mobs then maybe just maybe you are simplely a slow tank. If getting berated for how play happens often enough that you cannot shrug it off then sorry it is a you problem and maybe the tanking role is not for you when it comes to tanking for random.

In this either this has not happened all that often and you arr personally overly sensitive, or you are the problem if this happens often to you.

Am I the only person who has only been saved with Rescue, and who has only saved with Rescue?

As Scholar I use it often. As a BLM who fails to pay attention to mechanics, I get saved all the time (The ugly yellow blotches on the ground are just healer mechanics).

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Originally Posted by Shalan

Okay, I really don't think anyone here is talking about brand new players or lower level/intro ARR dungeons when we're talking about the standard pull practices. Unless maybe the tank themselves has already cleared 60+ content in which case it should still apply to them.

Looking at your sig and the fact you've only got a PLD at 37 and a WHM at 46 you can largely ignore those people. Yeah, it's probably better if you get used to larger pulls as you get closer to HW content, but it's not necessary for you or other new players. If someone is demanding new players do it in ARR content that's just them being an ass. There's no need to go on a crusade about the new players when no one worth their salt is expecting this of them.

The problem we're having is that people are still pulling small in Expert Roulette content, you know. Max level content. That or they've got multiple level 80s, experience as a tank, etc. and still pull small in lower level content when they have the experience that demonstrates they are well past that introductory stage. It's unacceptable lazy play, and is only serving to waste the time of teammates.

Excessive coddling of players and not holding them up to certain expectations is why we're to seeing so many tanks only pulling small groups, WHMs spamming Cure I in ShB dungeons (SE pls remove Free Cure proc trap), and BLMs that won't use Enochain. No one holds their feet to the fire or are actively derided for doing so to avoid hurting their feelings, and so allowing them to wallow in inadequacy.

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My experience does not reflect yours.
Expert Roulette only requires MSQ completion, lv80 and a certain minimum iLvl, none of which ensures that the player will actually know what they're doing.
I've healed in groups where the tank pulls big, and then fails to use cooldowns.
I've tanked in groups where the DPS or healer requests big pulls, and then almost no one AoEs.
All of which is entirely beside the point.
Even if we were to accept the premise that wall-to-wall pulls are de rigeur, it is still a completely bullshit move for the healer to use Rescue to force the issue, which is what this thread is supposedly about.
If folks want the tank to pull bigger, say something
Everyone has a choice then.
The tank can agree to do as they are asked, or they can explain why they may not be doing so at that particular moment, and then all individuals concerned can then choose to deal with it or leave, which includes the tank as well just to be clear.

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Originally Posted by dangadget

My experience does not reflect yours.
I've been in groups where the tank pulls big, and then fails to use cooldowns.
I've been in groups where the DPS or healer requests big pulls, and then almost no one AoEs.
All of which is entirely beside the point.
Even if we were to accept the premise that wall-to-wall pulls are de rigeur, it is still a completely bullshit move for the healer to use Rescue to force the issue, which is what this thread is supposedly about.
If folks want the tank to pull bigger, say something
Everyone has a choice then.
The tank can agree to do as they are asked, or they can explain why they may not be doing so at that particular moment, and then all individuals concerned can then choose to deal with it or leave, which includes the tank as well just to be clear.

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Personally i dont imagine myself being dragged around by the healer, i would burn myself in flames of shame if that ever happened to me, as its straight forward telling me that i socks so hard that healer is bored and take his time to move me around. Especially in 70lvl+ dungeons.
A tank experiencing behavior like this should be angry on himself not on a healer, lol.

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Originally Posted by dangadget

My experience does not reflect yours.
Expert Roulette only requires MSQ completion, lv80 and a certain minimum iLvl, none of which ensures that the player will actually know what they're doing.
I've healed in groups where the tank pulls big, and then fails to use cooldowns.
I've tanked in groups where the DPS or healer requests big pulls, and then almost no one AoEs.
All of which is entirely beside the point.
Even if we were to accept the premise that wall-to-wall pulls are de rigeur, it is still a completely bullshit move for the healer to use Rescue to force the issue, which is what this thread is supposedly about.
If folks want the tank to pull bigger, say something
Everyone has a choice then.
The tank can agree to do as they are asked, or they can explain why they may not be doing so at that particular moment, and then all individuals concerned can then choose to deal with it or leave, which includes the tank as well just to be clear.

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If you've read through this thread, you'll have seen that I've already agreed in this thread (multiple times) that people should ask before doing something as insulting as using rescue to pull people.
However, I'm of the thought process that it's the onus of the tank or whomever else that wants small pulls that need to ask for such pulls, as it runs counter to the expectation and culture of the *vast* majority of parties in this game. They're the one's going against the norm, therefore it is THEY who should be seeking the group's acceptance.

And while I agree that just having Expert roulette unlocked doesn't mean someone knows what they're doing I'm also of the mindset that if you can't act competently (as someone in Expert roulette should be) then you should voluntarily remove yourself from said roulette till you can. Sticking to lower level and easier content till you've reached a more acceptable level of play or have gained the confidence necessary. And no, I don't think jump potions are an excuse either. If you're going to jump potion, it is on you to research and spend some time with a training dummy/lower lvl content as you are knowingly and willingly skipping ahead of the learning curve.

I'm just sick and tired of dealing with DPS who do HW levels of DPS in ShB content, tanks who think they're doing "okay" or adequate with small pulls, and healers who can't heal worth a damn or think that the Free Cure proc is anything but a noob trap.


Perhaps this is just because I possess a more collectivist mindset though. I couldn't bear the thought of shaming myself by performing poorly and inconveniencing my teammates. Though it seems others are okay with this.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

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Actually this makes me wonder... how are we defining small pulls here? Single pulls? Because tbqh, I almost never see actual, genuine wall to wall pulls in most dungeons I run with pure pugs. Most groups I see do 2-3 packs at a time on average, even when they can definitely go further than that, and that's what I generally expect. I rarely see single pulls, and if I'm going full on wall to wall zerg fest, it's most often because I queued with one to three friends and we know we're more than capable of handling that.

I think it's on the whole group to communicate their expectations and desires. Giant pulls, tiny pulls, whatever... it's generally safe to assume a group is gonna go at a reasonably fast pace, the best they can handle, but everyone's experience and expectations aren't necessarily going to be the same. If it's because people aren't trying or are being lazy, that's on them, but that isn't necessarily the reason either.

I mean in general I agree people should take the time to figure out wth is going on to at least a basic level before queuing up with anyone other than friends and family, but I guess I'm just a bit too jaded and have kind of given up on expecting anything other than meh from a group that's not a premade.

Maybe I need a break from MMOs lmao...

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Originally Posted by Yue_Amariyo

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You've been playing the game for less than a month, have no job over 50 and are legitimately months away from level cap moving at your current pace. A genuine question - what makes you think you understand any of the things you're talking about?

I'm not going to insert myself into a conversation about high-end BLM optimization because my understanding of the job is limited to playing it during the leveling process, I think you need to apply the same logic here.

Fostering the mentality that it's alright to slowly work your way through a fifteen minute dungeon over the course of half an hour isn't okay. Full pulls are the expectation, full stop. The outlier mentality (baby pulls) is the one that requires communication simply by virtue of it being the outlier position. The waitress doesn't give you a heads up that the cheeseburger comes with cheese on it, that's normal - if you want something that deviates from the standard (like baby pulls) it's up to you to ask for that. It's then up to the group if they want to do it or not.

I'm sorry you've encountered some bads. That sucks. You need to move on from it and get with the program though, if you try wasting people's time at level cap you'll likely get the boot or at minimum get blacklisted by any competent player you come across.

This is a team game. We're all responsible for knowing our abilities and using them well. If you aren't going to do that or even try then you should go find a single player game to play so that you aren't negatively impacting others.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

Actually this makes me wonder... how are we defining small pulls here? Single pulls? Because tbqh, I almost never see actual, genuine wall to wall pulls in most dungeons I run with pure pugs. Most groups I see do 2-3 packs at a time on average, even when they can definitely go further than that, and that's what I generally expect. I rarely see single pulls, and if I'm going full on wall to wall zerg fest, it's most often because I queued with one to three friends and we know we're more than capable of handling that.

I think it's on the whole group to communicate their expectations and desires. Giant pulls, tiny pulls, whatever... it's generally safe to assume a group is gonna go at a reasonably fast pace, the best they can handle, but everyone's experience and expectations aren't necessarily going to be the same. If it's because people aren't trying or are being lazy, that's on them, but that isn't necessarily the reason either.

I mean in general I agree people should take the time to figure out wth is going on to at least a basic level before queuing up with anyone other than friends and family, but I guess I'm just a bit too jaded and have kind of given up on expecting anything other than meh from a group that's not a premade.

Maybe I need a break from MMOs lmao...

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When I say small pulls, I do mean single pulls (i.e. a single group of 3-4 mobs). It's absolutely infuriating in higher level content, as with that many mobs the presence of the tank is practically pointless. I can heal a DPS getting hit by a single pack and come out on top. And due to my work schedule most of my game time is spent doing dungeon roulettes, and over the last year I've been seeing a steadily increasing number of tanks pulling like this. Even tanks with full 80s that are geared up are still pulling like they're a gladiator visiting Sastasha for the first time and it's driving me batty.

At the very least they ought to be pulling two groups, but so damn many tanks won't even if you politely ask. I guess I'm just hitting a breaking point from the frustration.

A lot of healers can't handle wall to wall pulls either; while leveling alts I've seen plenty of groups wipe because the healer takes upwards of 30 seconds to actually start healing, and by then the tanks usually dead.

Big pulls can't be the default expectation for tanks when tanks can't be sure the group is competent. I think it's the healers responsibility to speak up if he wants big pulls, to reassure the group he can handle it; because at the end of the day the healer will be the xfactor. I've tanked plenty of stuff myself, and playing a game of "wonder if the healer sucks" during a wall to wall at the start of each roulette is annoying. So, speak up and ask for big pulls or hold your peace when they don't happen.