Bard - they broke my job

If they remove the casting times on WM it may not be so bad, but as it is, its far too low (and combersome to switch on and off)

When paired with melee DPS pre-60 Ive noted it takes my DF groups a substantially longer time to kill sets of mobs. Mostly because as a bard I have no way of buffing the melee DPS. I am not sure how it is at 60 as Im not quite there yet, but when Im paired with casters atleast I can buff them and things die a bit faster.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

As it were, it was a mechanic-empty class, it got to ignore most of the stuff in fights because there's zero risk involved in playing 2.0 Bard.

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I don't think all Bards share this sentiment. In end-game I often found it easier to be on a melee class because it seemed easier to me to dodge. At any rate, I guess it is in the eye of the beholder as it were. Even so, we deserve to be a viable class option and right now we are not. I'm happy they will patch it, but for the present our bitching will continue until that patching actually takes place.

Keep on bitching and giving any feedback now before it's patched while it still can be possibly adjusted.
Once we get the patch in who knows what we ll have and how long it will take to adjust that again if adjustments are needed.

There is plenty to worry about the (first) "fix" that we will get as the wordings of Yoshi were vague enough to be interpreted in many ways, good and bad.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

You can't just say take out auto attacks and chop off 100~150 DPS. You still have to calculate empyreal arrow (barrage makes it just that much stronger) and iron jaws, along with the 20% boost to everything. Given, in mobile fights WM might be a DPS loss, but its not 100~150.

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This is why I said "these few skills" not "WM".
People want WM+IJ+Empy to combine into some magic 500 DPS increase when the problem is that bard scales like shit, not that the skills all totally suck.

I just wanted to note for a moment that cast times are considerably more detrimental to DPS than melee range ever is, was, or has been.

At least playing as any melee job I can keep attacking while dodging at the same time. Even PBAoE's are easy to deal with as I can easily attack the boss once and run out for the split second I need to avoid the attack.

Meanwhile, BLMs, MCHs, and BRDs all can't attack at all until they can pull off a full cast. That's a HUGE difference. We become less adaptable than melee jobs when we become casters, and a number of encounters are geared in ways that specifically destroy casting (Neverreap final boss, Neverreap in general, Ravana EX, among others). On the flipside, melee just doesn't give a toss. Oh, tornado coming this way, I'l just sliiide on over to the other flank while swinging away. Oh, PBAoE, I'll just tap it when it's halfway through and run out just in the nick of time so I don't lose a GCD. Etc., etc.

That was the REAL value of BRD (and sub-52 MCH) mobility, and the range is frequently overstated as an 'advantage'. I'd love to see someone measure out just exactly how much downtime melee has in most boss fights in this game, because I get the distinct impression that BLMs have it worse by far (though I have to mention that their kit is geared towards compensating for this with huge burst). I would argue, unironically, that turret-like casters should just straight-up do better damage than anything else in this game, because look at all the sh*t they put up with!

People like to play up the 'weakness' of melee range, but in a game like this, especially with such a heavy emphasis on PvE, melee is really not nearly as much of a weakness as some folks would have you believe. Most encounters in this game just don't have anywhere near enough anti-melee mechanics to make the gap even partly reasonable. It's gone too far towards one end of the spectrum. Balance must needs be restored.


Edit: Let's put it this way. If BRD/MCH mobility is too large a boon, then give the melee jobs and BLM more survivability. If BRD/MCH support is too strong, then give other jobs more support OR nerf the auras OR increase the penalty for using those auras. DO NOT nerf the damage output when there are so many other levers that could be pulled to increase the desirability of other jobs.

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Originally Posted by aabe

This is why I said "these few skills" not "WM".
People want WM+IJ+Empy to combine into some magic 500 DPS increase when the problem is that bard scales like shit, not that the skills all totally suck.

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Yeah, the huge weapon damage gap at 60 is likely a large part of why BRD & MCH are having such issues. I would say that, if a penalty must be given, a 4%-ish weapon damage penalty would be far more reasonable than the 10% penalty we get now. Because of the nature of weapon damage (as it acts as a multiplier), a large penalty snowballs into an even bigger one thanks to how the math works.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

Yeah, the huge weapon damage gap at 60 is likely a large part of why BRD & MCH are having such issues. I would say that, if a penalty must be given, a 4%-ish weapon damage penalty would be far more reasonable than the 10% penalty we get now. Because of the nature of weapon damage (as it acts as a multiplier), a large penalty snowballs into an even bigger one thanks to how the math works.

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Exactly what I'm trying to say. It's not entirely that SE made the new skills "weak" and totally dropped the ball, but that BRD has much lower WD naturally and their only semblance of scaling now is WM and straight shot, while every other DPS has higher overall WD + skills that they can keep up nonstop while also putting out more potency every GCD than a bard possibly can. If you left everything right now the exact same and beefed everybody up 100 ilvls, the gap would only grow between BRD and everybody else.

The problem with WM and GB is that the 20% it gives doesn't really make up for the loss of auto-attacks. With increased action damage, we're looking at a 44% increase in damage with the two. The problem is, especially for MCH, that 44% increase averages out to be around 50 extra potency. Auto-attacks are around 70. Add in the extra abilities and it probably does about the same, if not a little less damage, than not using it. Which is the problem. You're basically rooting yourself in place for zero overall gain, which I don't believe was the abilities intention.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

The problem with WM and GB is that the 20% it gives doesn't really make up for the loss of auto-attacks. With increased action damage, we're looking at a 44% increase in damage with the two. The problem is, especially for MCH, that 44% increase averages out to be around 50 extra potency. Auto-attacks are around 70. Add in the extra abilities and it probably does about the same, if not a little less damage, than not using it. Which is the problem. You're basically rooting yourself in place for zero overall gain, which I don't believe was the abilities intention.

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Yea pretty much, couple it with the fact that Bard is pretty much slower - we can't weave in 2 OGCDs any more and can barely put in 1 with WM up which makes microing buffs a lot more complicated. The root of the issue is giving Bard a cast time on ANYTHING. I'd rather SE just take WM out and give us the other skills.

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

Yea pretty much, couple it with the fact that Bard is pretty much slower - we can't weave in 2 OGCDs any more and can barely put in 1 with WM up which makes microing buffs a lot more complicated. The root of the issue is giving Bard a cast time on ANYTHING. I'd rather SE just take WM out and give us the other skills.

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Agreed. WM is even worse than GB, imo. As a MCH, I can at least move on my procs, so the only real cast time I have to worry about is split shot or reapplying lead shot/hot shot, and we have other ways to circumvent it. It's like they took the idea from MCH and slapped it into Bard, but forgot they don't have the same tools to lower the impact.

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

Yea pretty much, couple it with the fact that Bard is pretty much slower - we can't weave in 2 OGCDs any more and can barely put in 1 with WM up which makes microing buffs a lot more complicated. The root of the issue is giving Bard a cast time on ANYTHING. I'd rather SE just take WM out and give us the other skills.

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This is a point that doesn't get made very often but is very important. The timing now makes it so that you can't really weave OGCD without delaying your next skill. So, we get even further behind.

The solution to all of this mess is simple.

First, just remove the mobility lock when WM is active. We've always been the lowest straight DPS but we made up for it by always being on the attack. Not only would this restore some lost DPS, but it would eliminate the forced dramatic change in play style forced upon you at 52. 2.0 brd and 3.0 brd are really 2 different jobs.

Second, adjust the casting time (keep the overall GCD the same) to allow weaving of 1 OGCD into the cycle without incurring delay.

Third, make WM instant. If you must have a "bard" theme for this, it can still be a "song" - call it a pitch pipe. You choose the key you will be singing in. Key of A for attack, key of C for casting.

With these changes, WM would still be situational. You would take it off when you need quick fire and can sacrifice the damage (think last boss of WoD where you need to be quickly changing targets on the clouds and worm things). If this truly is a stance, there needs to be real situational advantages in both stances, otherwise it's pointless.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

Yeah, the huge weapon damage gap at 60 is likely a large part of why BRD & MCH are having such issues.

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Giving them more WD does not fix the issue. GB and WM will still be in the same relative state that they are in now compared to their non stance forms, weaker.