What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

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Off topic but everytime I see one of your posts I subconsciously read it in Teledji Adeledji's voice lmao

At the end of the day, Venat destroyed the world as it was and shredded people's souls.

I really don't see how we can see her as anything except horrific. You can make up excuses, but she unilaterally imposed that for her "vision" of saving the world.

I think she's a megalomaniac at the best... and quite possibly worse. Sure there are "plot things" for why she didn't get more help or pursue other avenues- but come on.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s really interesting to me because before, when seeing the name Venat i didn’t think they were actually going to go through with making a 1:1 rendition of the same named character from 12, but in the end they really are mirrors of each other. Both go against their own people. Both side with the human type race and thinks what they’re doing is for the betterment of them, but in FF12 Venat’s case, what she did actually ended up being bad for humanity. Her actions and manipulation resulted in magic slowly being taken away from the world.

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It wasn't bad for humanity. The Occuria had used the Sun-Cryst to completely control Ivalician history. They crowned Dynast Kings who would do what *they* wanted and run things their way. They locked away beings like the espers who disagreed with them. Venat's actions freed humanity from Occurian control by ending the Age of Stones.

They were using Rasler to manipulate Ashe into doing what they wanted the entire game. The Occuria were the true villains.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It wasn't bad for humanity. The Occuria had used the Sun-Cryst to completely control Ivalician history. They crowned Dynast Kings who would do what *they* wanted and run things their way. They locked away beings like the espers who disagreed with them. Venat's actions freed humanity from Occurian control by ending the Age of Stones.

They were using Rasler to manipulate Ashe into doing what they wanted the entire game. The Occuria were the true villains.

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Except they were the only thing keeping humanity from collapsing on itself and they were preventing it’s extinction. Yes they locked up the Espers because they literally led a revolt against them with Ultima at the head of it all. Yes they manipulated Ashe, because what Venat was doing would doom both sides and in the end it essentially did. Magic is slowly sucked out of the world. We see partial results of all of this in 12-2 as well. Venat’s actions caused untold suffering for the rest of humanity and the worlds existence. The “freedom” was a bit of a sham as humanity itself mostly had freedom, it was only until they would cause themselves to wipe themselves out that the occuria intervened.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I think it’s ridiculous to say that she had that power, when using the power you’re referring to would’ve killed her and all life, including the First. And she was supposed to do this, while also knowing that the First would ultimately be saved ourselves, Minfilia (who she sent with her blessing), and Graha?

And when was she supposed to look out for Ardbert? The time between Heavensward and Shadowbringers was equivalent to over a century on the First. Ardbert’s entire life on the First could fall in the period between ARR, where Hydaelyn was drained of Her power protecting us, and his arrival on the Source on the post 3.0 quest line. When was she supposed to intervene?

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This is the last time I'm playing this speculative game. I have no interest in going down this rabbit hole other than to point out the myriad of morality issues with Venat keeping her memories. Besides, I've seen enough of your interactions with Veloran to know this will never end unless I end it. :P

I don't know how much aether 4x 1/14 souls have, but given that we know there was excess of the Mothercrystal due to Zenos having been able to "gorge" himself on the remainder, I would think a sliver could be spared for the First. Not knowing about Ardbert assumes she keeps no track of who she gives the Blessing of Light to whatsoever, which I suppose is possible (albeit odd if the Echo is truly that rare), but considering he's a major player in the story of the WoL and the single only reason the WoL was able to defeat Emet I'd consider keeping tabs on him important if not for the sake of the First itself. Also, implying that Hydaelyn didn't need to do anything because Minfilia would save the First anyway after 9/10 of it was wiped out isn't a good look for her either.

However, you have gotten me to wonder if Venat was ever capable of protecting the shards at all. There's no evidence of even one time she was able to prevent a rejoining (or the loss of the 13th to the void). Even if inaction wasn't by design to return to the WoL (which, for the record, is a theory I dislike), then it's a colossal case of ineptitude. She knew the Ascians would spend millennia seeking to rejoin the shards without her being able to do anything about it? That's a pretty darn problematic part of her plan. Combined with the contingency being to abandon the shards, it brings into question if they were always meant to be collateral damage.

People have brought up before that the Ancients' culture had a callous disregard for life (something I don't agree with, but for the sake of argument) and thus Venat would've been of that same mindset. I certainly don't see how she's in any better moral standing than the Ascians but, again, the problem is in the stark contrast between how the two are treated in the game.

My unsubstantiated theory is that Hydaelyn wasn't intended to be good (or evil) in EW, but someone told Ishikawa to make her so. Due to the time crunch, I'm sure she did the best she could with it. The problem is the actions remained the same (worse since the sundering became intentional and with omniscience, it was better in ShB when there was the possibility the world being sundered along with Zodiark was accidental), so there's this weird disconnect between her acting in ways that are abhorrent while gaslighting the player with how great and wonderful she is.

When you find out how and why Hydaelyn sundered the world:

Hydaelyn: I may have been bad.... I may have destroyed the world and its people...... but it was for your GOOD!

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2EGu_isaw...ratelliORV.jpg

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

I can definitely see the parallels between Thordan and Hydaelyn. Thordan was truly convinced he was righteous and that he would bring peace to his people. Literally right after he transformed and started his monologue about his plans, I already knew we'd end up fighting him. It didn't matter that he had good intentions, our character gave that determined look we get when we're about to throw down lol. The fact that he was using power from a millennium of prayers gained by manipulation of the people who were ignorant to what truly happened in the past was pretty messed up. I guess his reasoning was it was better to have them believe in something than to learn the truth and lose faith, which he ended up using as a power source.

And in the same way it's interesting how all of the WOLs and others who Hydaelyn has "called" to serve her are also ignorant of the truth about what happened in the past and are operating on very limited and skewed information. All of mankind, including us, seem to have been manipulated by a person or group in order to fulfil their own agendas whether they have good intentions or not. Although Hydaelyn saw herself as helping to free mankind in the long run, it came at the cost of betraying her own people and basically "making" a whole new type of human who would be more susceptible to things like manipulation.

The sad part about all of this for me, is the fact that all the sundered had no choice in anything - they are literally the products of this horrible betrayal and are mostly ignorant of the true history of the world they live in. The "chosen" ones among them end up caught in this war between two sides that they never asked to be in. It's actually really messed up.

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One of my pet peeves with the whole thing is how she refers to herself as a supreme deity, and then Y'shtola throws this out: The implications of temporal magicks are not entirely understood, and so we cannot assume that our Hydaelyn and the Venat you met in Elpis are one and the same. Nevertheless, due to Her intrinsic qualities as an all-powerful being, I'd wager that Hydaelyn possesses the knowledge we seek.

Both Emet-Selch and the moon janny make it clear that neither considered them to be gods in an absolute sense. How can she possibly be taken as an "all-powerful being"? They're both very powerful primals (Zodiark all the more so), but a supreme deity and all-powerful being she is not. And this is from characters who ought to know better and yet no one calls them out on it. :p

Honestly I don't think Hydaelyn ever got to make an actual plan. At first it was probably "oh no the worlds ending I'll buy time by throwing duct tape on it!" then it started need more and more duct tape until 99.9% of her time was spent putting on more duct tape then the "plan" became whatever nonsense she came up when not applying duct tape

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They're both very powerful primals (Zodiark all the more so), but a supreme deity and all-powerful being she is not. And this is from characters who ought to know better and yet no one calls them out on it. :p

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Disappointing, but not surprising. The Scions have always been varying levels of zealots towards Hydaelyn. Even after discovering they were primals, Y'shtola insisted Zodiark was the more dangerous of the two. These are the same people who glossed over the fact that Hydaelyn told Minfilia to kill herself and then abandoned her in the aetherial sea until she offered herself up as a vessel. (The actual quote from Minfilia is, "There, adrift and alone, Her voice silent once more, I prayed...")

I wonder how much aether it takes Hydaelyn just to communicate briefly from the Aetherial Sea? She constantly talks about being to weak, but then she claims to have kept enough on reserve just to fight test WoL (as if all their trials were not proof enough) and then there's the Mother Crystal which we find out is just an accumulation of aether that build up over thousands of years. Was she just that averse in using those sources?