How do we feel about tank damage right now?

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sure it is predicated on feelings, which also influence perception which in turn for some impacts enjoyment. Sure the metric changed which I will not deny, but hey if SE was more upfront with their metrics from the start and did not have such a fear regarding allowing players in how they calculate contribution from the start then maybe we would not be in this spot.

I will be the first to admit that I know my stance is based around feelings, but hey while it is just a graph that graph outside of simply clearing the fight is the only means of feedback I have if I did okay.

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That's generally Reynheart's point.

The role's ceiling is the only thing you're competing against. Those in this thread have tried to change it to DPS ceilings, or Healer ceilings, to justify raising that ceiling artificially (RE: Potency boosts).

If -you- personally are doing 50% of what the role is capable of, then you have a great amount of room to improve, and that will not change wherever that ceiling is set. If the ceiling raises artificially, you're still at 50%. If it lowers, your'e still at 50%.

The current ceiling is fine, but to be fair, so would a ceiling 5% higher, 5% lower, or any other number you want to set it at. It'd technically be fine, but from a design and balance standpoint, when you start adding things you have to start removing other things.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If one can get pissed at only doing the rDPS of a 60th percentile BLM on your 95th percentile DNC, one would have every right to be pissed about low tank contribution

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Except that if DNC DPS is too low, it has a higher probability of being kicked out of party for another DPS...which can't happen between a tank and a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

That's generally Reynheart's point.

The role's ceiling is the only thing you're competing against. Those in this thread have tried to change it to DPS ceilings, or Healer ceilings, to justify raising that ceiling artificially (RE: Potency boosts).

If -you- personally are doing 50% of what the role is capable of, then you have a great amount of room to improve, and that will not change wherever that ceiling is set. If the ceiling raises artificially, you're still at 50%. If it lowers, your'e still at 50%.

The current ceiling is fine, but to be fair, so would a ceiling 5% higher, 5% lower, or any other number you want to set it at. It'd technically be fine, but from a design and balance standpoint, when you start adding things you have to start removing other things.

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This is true, and I get balance is a give a take and currently I would say outside of personal prefence we are fine. I do feel that our overall contribution could be higher though where it currently is it is not horrible just with the current scaling I see that total contribution in terms of damage become lower.

I get for many this is a moot, since we should only be comparing our numbers to other tanks not generally total contribution is sort of irrelevant.

Through I would say even for players that are unable to reach those theoretical maxes the perception still is something that we cannot deny plays a role in terms of enjoyment and player rentention of a role. As such I think either SE should be more transparent with their scaling and contribution calculations.

This info would also better help the community provide feedback regarding desired changes and criticisms. Hope what I am saying makes sense, since I inherently do not disagree with what has generally been said, I do wish it was different though. I guess overall my general mindset is if my damage contribution is low yet i due to being able to perform my main function I get what feels like a pass due to my role.

I wonder how the eureka damage compare in SB and Shb at the same ilvl and lvl.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except that if DNC DPS is too low, it has a higher probability of being kicked out of party for another DPS...which can't happen between a tank and a DPS.

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Actually it can, and will as long as it is possible to solo tank. This game has quite a few fights where it became common practice to drop a tank in favor of an extra dps.

The core issue is about making tanking feel valuable. People are not going to invest time into a role if they aren't going to be valued for it.

If your role has a low impact, it doesn't matter if you're performing at the 'ceiling' or the 'floor'. There's no difference in value for your team between bringing a good player or a bad one. This is why relative dps matters.

This is also why having a skill differential matters. The biggest thing that inspires people to invest time into mastering a job is seeing a top tier player perform at a high level and seeing the impact that it has. That's why we go to watch star athletes make big plays. The problem is that this has been sequentially neutered at the altar of "accessibility". If everyone is a winner, everyone pays their subs. Or so they think.

But if everyone can achieve it, it's not worth achieving.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

This game has quite a few fights where it became common practice to drop a tank in favor of an extra dps.

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Situation that are completely unrelated to the DPS value, but only the specific mechanics of the fight. But, if we apply that logic, then tanks should do the same damage to save their place in all fights.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The core issue is about making tanking feel valuable. People are not going to invest time into a role if they aren't going to be valued for it.

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• Step 1 : Remove one tank the next time you do an Eden Savage run
• Step 2 : See the party wipe at the first tank swap or double tankbuster
• Step 3 : Feel valuable :D

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The core issue is about making tanking feel valuable. People are not going to invest time into a role if they aren't going to be valued for it.

If your role has a low impact, it doesn't matter if you're performing at the 'ceiling' or the 'floor'. There's no difference in value for your team between bringing a good player or a bad one. This is why relative dps matters.

This is also why having a skill differential matters. The biggest thing that inspires people to invest time into mastering a job is seeing a top tier player perform at a high level and seeing the impact that it has. That's why we go to watch star athletes make big plays. The problem is that this has been sequentially neutered at the altar of "accessibility". If everyone is a winner, everyone pays their subs. Or so they think.

But if everyone can achieve it, it's not worth achieving.

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There is a substantial difference between grey, blue, and orange tanks. So there is a substantial skill differential. Tanks are pretty high impact in general - a tank that doesn't know what he's doing or that can't adapt can easily wipe the group. A good, observant tank can save someone's life and perhaps the raid from a wipe with a well places clemency/TBN/etc if someone messes up and eats an aoe before a raidwide. Or if a co tank fails to pick up an add, and so on.

Of course, what you really mean by impact is you want high DPS, right? Well. There are healers that would love to do 15k+ DPS too. If that's all you care about... frankly, you are playing the wrong role. If you want DPS-level numbers, play a DPS.

Even at the current level, it's important for healers and tanks to DPS to meet enrages/DPS checks. But if you want an even bigger portion of that responsibility, there's a role just for that.

But if you are going to insist the numbers should be higher. Please tell me, why exactly should healers who want more DPS be excluded from DPS buffs?

Anyone can wipe a group in raid content.

You're quite deliberately misrepresenting me, though. I'm not made of straw. As I said earlier, it's a question of impact. In ARR and Heavensward, for example, there was more emphasis placed on manually positioning bosses. It also so happened that a sizeable portion of your damage (40%!) came from autos, which were dependent on both uptime and the direction that you were facing. Wrong direction? No autos for you.

Looking back at some of those earlier videos, some of the gameplay techniques used were quite elegant to watch. Tanks would strafe around bosses to pick up adds, without losing directional contact or autos. They'd backstep bosses away from AoEs and mechanics, strafe around to land a stun, and strafe back to continue backstepping, again without losing autos. I don't think that tanks have ever been rotationally complex, but this is one way in which damage output and good tanking can and should intersect. With the auto-positioning bosses of Stormblood and Shadowbringers, my complaint isn't just that we're more often than not glorified melee dps without positionals, but we have less agency over the fight than they do to boot. And it's done in the name of making tanks more "accessible".

You are partially right, though. I picked tank because I wanted a bigger portion of the group's total responsibility. Impact. Not merely dps. Impact.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with healers contributing a more sizeable proportion of dps as well. For some bizarre reason, that seems to be a more controversial issue amongst healers than it is amongst tanks.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

There is a substantial difference between grey, blue, and orange tanks. So there is a substantial skill differential. Tanks are pretty high impact in general - a tank that doesn't know what he's doing or that can't adapt can easily wipe the group. A good, observant tank can save someone's life and perhaps the raid from a wipe with a well places clemency/TBN/etc if someone messes up and eats an aoe before a raidwide. Or if a co tank fails to pick up an add, and so on.

Of course, what you really mean by impact is you want high DPS, right? Well. There are healers that would love to do 15k+ DPS too. If that's all you care about... frankly, you are playing the wrong role. If you want DPS-level numbers, play a DPS.

Even at the current level, it's important for healers and tanks to DPS to meet enrages/DPS checks. But if you want an even bigger portion of that responsibility, there's a role just for that.

But if you are going to insist the numbers should be higher. Please tell me, why exactly should healers who want more DPS be excluded from DPS buffs?

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Because they are already outdpsing the tanks in many circumstances and even in statics get priority over tanks in gear. Healers are complaining about their lack of DPS options but not thier numbers because they are far above what they would have been if the scaling was 1:1 from SB to ShB. They actually got DPS buffs already while Tanks slid down by a noticable degree.