Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

To be fair, this is... somewhat disingenuous. Healers undoubtedly get blamed for a lot of stupid things, but in a world of FFLogs, the DPS are put on notice and frequently mocked; I dare say more so once you step into endgame content. Likewise, it's perfectly easy to be a lazy healer. I know plenty who openlyadmit they're watching Netflix or Youtube on their second monitor. If you scarcely DPS, healing in all non-progression content is an absolute breeze. That all said, I disagree Cleric's removal wouldn't open up people to healing. XIV is a heavily damaged focused game but only healers are punished for a miss-click. Would the volume increase in droves? Probably not, but I suspect more players would be willing to experiment without the risk/reward style gameplay.

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Everyone is punished for a misclick, If you are a tank and click on say hallowed ground too late you die, if you misclick something as dps, your DPS plummets. So again I have to ask why is cleric stance the only thing that is routinely attacked on for?

Also I do not get this view "I suspect more players would be willing to experiment without the risk/reward style gameplay" How do you know people are even aware of it existing? When I started out I did not know about all this Community divide and did my own thing. I pick healer start out as and was like oh neat ill try this ability that adds more damage, oh I can help speed things along, kill things means less healing and people should be happy when things take less time. I do not see "risk/reward style gameplay" , what does that even mean? I do not see how there is a risk, using an instant ability when people are full hp and helping speed things along. Oh someone is approaching 1/2 hp despite fairy? I better take it off and cast one heal (omg i need cast a heal as a healer, what a shocker) then hit cleric stance as the spell finishes so there is no down time.

The thing is, even if we change the DPS to buffing thing, you can still apply the same logic 'what if someone dies while I cast buff on someone?' then you have full time healers anyway who will annoy others for not buffing them and slowing the run down.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Can we please stop using this misleading quote as an argument? When the content is in fact literally impossible to beat without healer DPS when it's added in the game, then the content does require healer DPS. It doesn't matter who says what and what kind of calculations have been made and when, when that is the fact.

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If you're saying Yoshida is lying to you, I don't know what to say to you. From looking at raid numbers, I see it completely possible- the enrage timers are pretty generous.
I'm also going off what was mentioned in either the Frankfurt live letter or the interview that was live directly afterward- PAX? I don't remember. This wasn't a misleading quote when it was officially translated.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

<good examples of games that don't have to deal with a healer dps meta>

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I don't understand how FFXIV can't seem to get this balance right. I didn't roll a healer to occasionally cast a heal and spend most of my time spamming three boring dps buttons. It's not like the content from these games (discounting EQ as I have no experience with it) is tremendously difficult at all levels. In WildStar, I'm generally always busy on my healers keeping up buffs, prepping for damage, adjusting positioning for better heals. TERA was the same - on both Mystic and Priest, there was plenty to do. Again, same in WoW... and Rift... the list goes on.

Once again I assert that we should not be looking for ways to cement the "healer dps" meta even further, but rather encourage SE to design content that asks healers to do more healing/buffing.

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Originally Posted by Miste

To be honest I would be kind of scared what would happen to the DF if they made regular content more healing intensive...not scared for myself as a healer...but for when I am NOT on healer :x

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Having played plenty of MMOs that do not have the weird healer dps meta... it's not that hard.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

If you're saying Yoshida is lying to you, I don't know what to say to you.

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Please don't try to put words in my mouth. :) Yoshida isn't lying, he's saying they're not considering healer DPS while tuning this content. But he's also saying the calculations are based on higher item level than what players have available when the content is added in the game. So if the players would play following that intention, they would not even try to beat the content when it's released. Hence, it doesn't make any sense to use this as an argument.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

From looking at raid numbers, I see it completely possible- the enrage timers are pretty generous.

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Look for parses from world first groups. I checked the A11S a while ago (it's available on YouTube) and they didn't have what it takes without healer DPS (A9S and A10S might be a different story - haven't checked - but they're exceptions to the general difficulty level anyway). And these are the best groups in the whole world. Not to mention how unfair it would be to actually expect your DPS and tank members to play at that level while saying it's completely fine for healers to leave a vital part of their toolkit out. :D

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

If you're saying Yoshida is lying to you, I don't know what to say to you. From looking at raid numbers, I see it completely possible- the enrage timers are pretty generous.I'm also going off what was mentioned in either the Frankfurt live letter or the interview that was live directly afterward- PAX? I don't remember. This wasn't a misleading quote when it was officially translated.

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That person is saying the quote is being misused and taken out of context. They calculate DPS based on standards people can't typically hit so the wiggle room is getting healer and tank to offset that. He even said that himself in the same quote that it is necessary for healer DPS when below the ilevel for the calculations. The dev always intended for healers to help in damage in group content, it is just people misquoting that quote to allow people to suit their narrative"I shouldn't have to dps as healer if yoshi - p says so"

Taika is correct, it is getting annoying how much people take that quote out of context. Also you need to understand, if they did factor healer DPS at min level, people would not be able clear the DPS checks on release, things will be too hard, THAT IS WHY THEY DO NOT FACTOR IT, has nothing to do with "devs did not intend healers to DPS"

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And this is where the issue lies: The double standard starts at the design level already.

What Yoshida is doing there is to expect DPS to pull 85-90% of their dummy performance potential in a live fight, while at the same time, asking healers and tanks to only pull 50-60% of their performance potential (conservative number).

This gap is what people ask healers and tanks to fill when they ask them to DPS as well. If the devs would ask healers and tanks to pull 85-90% of their theoretical performance potential as well, like they do for DPS

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Sorry, I don't think you're being entirely open with your phrasing here. You're not asking for healers to hit 85-90% of their performance potential, you're asking for them to do double duty and hit that 85-90% of dummy DPS performance - WHILE HEALING. That requires the healer to be doing a bit more than just hitting dummy damage. If you want Healers to pull double duty in that regard, then IMHO DPS (including yours) need to be in the upper 90s percent wise vs their dummy performance.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Can we please stop using this misleading quote as an argument? When the content is in fact literally impossible to beat without healer DPS when it's added in the game, then the content does require healer DPS. It doesn't matter who says what and what kind of calculations have been made and when, when that is the fact.

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Can we please stop using old, no-longer-applicable examples that the devs themselves admitted were overdone (Yes, Gordias. Let's not beat around the bush) to support counterargument? A major reason Accuracy was removed from healer gear was due to the fact that they designed Heavensward content (again, Gordias apparently being the one unintended exception) with necessary damage calculations to clear as if Healer dps contribution was zero. This was very much stated fact.

Taika is correct though. You won't be clearing Savage content in the early months without decent healer DPS. It's a way different story when you are overgeared at i270 and adding in 15% echo now.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

The amount of conjecture in this post is stifling.

Also, 9 times out of 10, a tank dying to a tank buster isn't a healer issue. It's a failure to properly mitigate with a cooldown issue.

But anyways continue painting with that broad brush. Let's see how ridiculous this topic gets before the 22nd.

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No, The amount of likes I got versus yours says I'm not being ridciulous. It's the truth.

If you actually healed A12S successfully you'd know that even a pro-tank mitigating the incinerating heat buster, that there is also a cleave either before or afterwards most of the time. That is where my 90% HP and healer being unaware comment comes from. Then they will die to an auto-attack if they don't get healed just in-time after the mitigated hit.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Everyone is punished for a misclick, If you are a tank and click on say hallowed ground too late you die, if you misclick something as dps, your DPS plummets. So again I have to ask why is cleric stance the only thing that is routinely attacked on for?

Also I do not get this view "I suspect more players would be willing to experiment without the risk/reward style gameplay" How do you know people are even aware of it existing? When I started out I did not know about all this Community divide and did my own thing. I pick healer start out as and was like oh neat ill try this ability that adds more damage, oh I can help speed things along, kill things means less healing and people should be happy when things take less time. I do not see "risk/reward style gameplay" , what does that even mean? I do not see how there is a risk, using an instant ability when people are full hp and helping speed things along. Oh someone is approaching 1/2 hp despite fairy? I better take it off and cast one heal (omg i need cast a heal as a healer, what a shocker) then hit cleric stance as the spell finishes so there is no down time.

The thing is, even if we change the DPS to buffing thing, you can still apply the same logic 'what if someone dies while I cast buff on someone?' then you have full time healers anyway who will annoy others for not buffing them and slowing the run down.

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By relative comparison. A healer getting locked into lock can easily wipe the entire raid if their co-healer cannot quickly adjust. A DPS fat-fingering their combo means little in the grand scheme of things.

I don't, hence my phrasing. But reading your tooltips makes it easy enough to figure out. You'll inevitably hear advice from other players. People unaware of their abilities by level 60 are bad players regardless of the job they play. That isn't an excuse. And it's really simple to determine pressing a button that completely gimps your healing capabilities promotes a risk/reward style. If Cleric locks due to the cooldown or it gets accidentally double tapped, people are almost certainly dead.

Then you need to time your casts better. If I mistime Holmgang and die to a buster, I have to correct that mistake next time. It happens. Dust yourself have and go again.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Can we please stop using old, no-longer-applicable examples that the devs themselves admitted were overdone (Yes, Gordias. Let's not beat around the bush) to support counterargument?

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I used A11S as an example... Talking about raid content doesn't get much fresher than that.