Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

I don't think reducing the cooldown would help the main issue of sustainability or be healthy for the game. MP regen isn't necessary either, but would certainly help the defensives since TBN consumes MP meaning it's cooldown is actually shorter than it's realistic uptime. The main issue with DRK is sustainability. I'm pretty sure that, because of TBN and its cooldowns, technically DRK reduces damage taken by the largest amount, the issue comes from regenerative abilities and its lack of in long term situations. Every other tank can heal, then when they are done healing, they can heal until their heal is ready. DRK can just heal once off an oGCD every 60 seconds and once every 2 minutes. I think that because of this a better solution is to just throw a small HoT on Oblation or add heals to your Delirium combo and make Dark Mind do something useful. As it stands the main issue with Dark Knight is it just runs out of mits and cannot keep itself up long enough to see them come back.

But also, 2 charges on Dark Arts would be very nice.

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Thanks for the reply! I suppose I was thinking that more TBNs (especially during dungeons) would allow DRK to just straight-up not need as much healing in your average dungeon pack. I was thinking of it, like, "why not allow me to blow all my MP if I need it? MP is already a limiting factor, let me spam shields. PLD can shelltron back to back."

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Originally Posted by excelsiorjones

Thanks for the reply! I suppose I was thinking that more TBNs (especially during dungeons) would allow DRK to just straight-up not need as much healing in your average dungeon pack. I was thinking of it, like, "why not allow me to blow all my MP if I need it? MP is already a limiting factor, let me spam shields. PLD can shelltron back to back."

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PLD can Shelltron back to back yeah, but you really shouldn't. You have to build your gauge back up, it amounts to about 21 seconds of autos if you don't need to step away from your target. Damage reduction only lasts 8 seconds where the HoT lasts 12, so you want to keep those both working for you. You can, however, use Shelltron pretty much every 20s resulting in intentionally stacking defensive cooldowns, which actually increases the value of the regen that comes from Shelltron. The math here is a bit complicated and I... don't feel like doing it this time. But it means the HP value from the regen builds up to a significant number. The PLD has a regen totaling a potency of 1000 every 20s, roughly 30 thousand using my level 99 gear and tomestone accessories. DRK was given a 1200 potency once every 2 minutes. PLD has a 400 cure potency every 3rd GCD in AoE, then 400 cure potency on 4 GCD in Requiescat making 1600 over 4 GCD. DRK has a 40k shield every 15s but only 2 opportunities to fill that gap with any sustain. I really think a 100 or 200 potency regen for 12 seconds on Oblation solves this issue no problem, as well as a 10% mit on Dark Mind for all damage not just magic (Never forgive that Camouflage is just HW DRK Dark Dance reworked, buffed, and given to a different tank). 6000 heal potency over 2 minutes (not calculating Abyssal Drain because it's target dependent) will still not compare to the PLD with it's 2 minute heal potency total being 29,200ish (idealized AoE scenario) while also giving PLD a 1000 potency shield on top of it all. Baring in mind that Ramparts can amp any 20s window of that healing as well, and that, of course, those heals can crit, and over the course of a pull, they will.. (Why 2 minutes? Because that's when all cooldowns would be equally "reset", I do realize how infrequently you'd get all 2 minutes out of a single pull, but it's the simplest way to display the math, as well as using PLD because it's pretty baseline with what a "healer tank" should do)

That said, the reason I point out it wouldn't be healthy is because DRK would then just not take damage at all, even Warrior has to actually take damage. A lowered cooldown on TBN could work but adding the MP regen wouldn't. Outside if Delirium, it takes 6 GCD's to recharge 3000 MP for TBN, which is basically a 15s recharge anyway, so you'd have a burn mechanic for your MP, but again, once the shields are down, pretty much any damage you take sticks on you forever.

EDIT: Interestingly if a single 1000 potency heal on my gear is just over 30,000 HP then by that math PLD would heal around 300,000 hp with no crits or ramparts, which at 40k hp shielding from TBN is 7.5 total TNBs which also takes 2 minutes to burn through on a 15s cooldown if used entirely off cooldown. Obviously round up to 8. So if the healing without crits and without ramparts is actually the same as TBN, surely something is to be said for the extra damage reductions PLD gets from Bulwark, the greater value from HS compared to Oblation, and the passive blocking that does happen regularly? This kind of math is why TBN just doesn't work, it's too short term and with nothing to fill in the time inbetween when damage is properly taken. It's more damage taken with less health to bump survivability. The math is there, I don't know why the devs allow this to continue. Abyssal Drain also isn't really a heal to me, it's more of a "free bounce back once a minute" in pulls, but this could be attributed to my way of thinking with reliability and consistency and pressure to use it in burst windows regardless of current HP. That's why I haven't considered it into my numbers.

Pretty much if you are a DRK in a dungeon you want a SGE or a SCH with you. Specifically SGE due to dedicated sustain coming from Kardia every GCD and things like Haima every other trash pull. When you get a WHM or AST if they run out of OGCD heals then good luck getting a GCD heal from them.

Honestly DRKs whole dungeon problem could be fixed if they removed AD from CS. Put AD on the GCD with 30s cooldown with 2 charges and make a low level TBN ( call it shadowskin) at lvl 40. That would greatly improve the leveling process and improve expert dungeon runs on DRK.

But devs and JP think DRK is fine as is. JP only have issues with plunge being removed but that is getting fixed in 7.01 with emnity added to the dash. So looks like we are waiting until 8.0 for sustain fixes if any.

I'm leveling Warrior and it kind of became depressing how the job became more enjoyable than Dark Knight.

With the loss MP regen, MP management is not a thing anymore and you'll rarely cap MP. That also leads to 4 oGCDs lost during opener and burst window (1 Edge, 2 Plunge, 1 Blood weapon).
The changes and merges are good but they should've been replaced with something. DRK wasn't exactly bloated with oGCDs, it was very flexible but disconnected, now it feels empty but still disconnected.

Bonus point, DRK got a bit scammed on its new 120s defensive , it restores 1200 potency worth of healing, around 43k. Warrior restores 2000 potency over 15 seconds.
GNB gets around 36k extra HP but it is much more valuable than any other sort of healing as those extra HP works like a shield that can be resplenished if necessary. Same goes for PLD, barriers are fantastic given the mitigation bloat.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

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GNB Healing is also a steady 1200 every 30s from Aurora and 900 every 20s from HoC. Pit them together in the same 2 minute period and the healing is 10,800 (rounding up one cast of HoC) as well as a 20% increase in max HP (That can be harder to calculate its actual impact because when it falls off you can lose the health if you were full). That should be around 150,000 from my previous assessment of what healing does with my gear. GNB is third in healing for tanks and in a 2 minute window the disparity is still almost ten times the difference. Even if we assume 200 potency per target on a pull from a pull of 10 mobs that's 2,000 potency every minute adding only 4,000 making it a 2 minute window of 5200 healing, less than half of GNB still. The math is there, DRK just can't compare to the other tanks.

EDIT: Math error, wrong cooldown.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Heart of Corundum is also 25 seconds, not 20.

Over 2 minutes, you'll have 3 uses of Aurora (not counting the one coming back at the 2nd minute, because it hasn't ticked yet) and 4.8 uses of corundum.
That's 3600 from Auroras and 3600 from Corundums, so 7200 over 2 minutes, 8100 if you round up the corundum usage.

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This being correct humbles what I was saying as a difference, but still eclipses DRK entirely, outside of AD usage of course. I wonder what the math is on damage reduction...

Aurora's CD is 60s @ 2 charges, so 2x 1200p in 2min. Just wanted to correct that.

So I am going to point out the issues with Dark Knight that have NOT been fixed since it launched ALL THE WAY BACK IN Heavensward;

Living Dead, for lack of better phrases, SUCKED @$$ then, still SUCKED @$$ even AFTER it got "buffed" and it still SUCKS @$$ now, and and it will CONTINUE to SUCK @$$ until Living Dead works similarly to Superbolide where it drops my HP to 1 instead of 10 seconds of dead air UNLESS an attack hits that would NORMALLY kill activates the effect.




Now for the issues that were present in Stormblood and by extension Shadowbringers;

The ability pruning did NOT do Dark Knight any favors and is even more true when you attempt to do level sync content, and basically go "This jobs plays like @$$!" which is most, if not ALL, jobs when they are forced to do any level 50 dungeon via duty roulette, though when Stormblood content was relevant it wasn't AS bad as it is today, but nevertheless, it still causes balancing issue to this day.

In addition removing good changes for bad changes until later deciding that those bad changes need to be less bad, or in extreme cases ACTUALLY GOOD changes, or in the absolute WORST case making change that makes Dark Knight go from bad to WORST has ALSO not been doing Dark Knight any favors. Most of Shadowbringers Dark Knight is a prime example of this, but Endwalker Dark Knight is ALSO guilty of this as well, and Dawntrail Dark Knight continues this trend, for the worst...

In Heavensward MOST of Dark Knight's issues were made to make Dark Knight less bad if not made Dark Knight better, after launch, same with Stormblood, especially when Sole Survivor was a button almost never got used until it got buffed to have an Excog effect where, all of a sudden, the ability's usage spiked, which should have been the sign that devs were onto something good, but Shadowbringers Dark Knight design seems to be have been made by someone who absolutely HATES Dark Knight, and is only getting paid to get the job done, rather than to care about making it better, for 3 EXPANSIONS IN A ROW!




And now for the issues with Shadowbringers Dark Knight;

The Blackest Night no longer generates 50 Blood Gauge when it breaks but instead grants Dark Arts when it breaks which is then can be used for Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow... the problem is that you CANNOT generate Dark Arts OUTSIDE of The Blackest Night...

Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow are now used to maintain Darkside... the problem is that I CANNOT turn Darkside on OUTSIDE of battle OR downtime...

Living Shadow being a series of actions that it can execute, but more often than not feels like waste of spot on my hotbar, and no amount of forcing actions behind it is going to change my opinion on Living Shadow, especially if I have no way of maintaining it and it's only purpose is "do more damage than the player" which is poor AND lazy game design...

Abyssal Drain being a 60 oGCD, which hurt Dark Knight more than it should have.

Blood Weapon being a worse Berserk only needed to be buffed to where it restores MP when you use magic attacks while still buffing your attack speed BECAUSE of spells ESPECIALLY in AoE.

Delirium being a worse Inner Release, as a opposed to leaving it alone, is where the Warrior comparisons really started...

Making Dark Knight be weak against Physical damage even AFTER you get The Blackest Night




And ever since Endwalker it feels like the devs are only adding things onto Dark Knight is because of a checklist that they have to complete before the launch of the next expansion, nothing more... such as;

Locking the cooldown of Abyss Drain with Carve and Spit also hurt it more than it helped, Salt and Darkness might as replace Salted Earth at this point, so long as the keep the 20 second cooldown.

And their level 90 ability with the Darkside restriction felt tacked on because they couldn't think of an actual downside and they gave after that...

Oblation because Dark Knight sucks against Physical damage but because you get it so late it that doesn't even matter because you already made the swap to another tank before Endwalker launched. And I'm being generous with how early/late players made the switch...



And then there is change for the sake of change like;

Removing Plunge which LIVING SHADOW ALSO USES BY THE WAY for an ability NO ONE EVEN WANTS TO USE BECAUSE IT DOES NO DAMAGE AND YOU CAN'T EVEN USE IT ON OTHER PARTY MEMBERS AND IT'S TOO SLOW!



But in Dawtrail we at least got;

A new GCD combo that's locked behind Delirium even though I would rather it cost Blood gauge instead... and a new AoE GCD... that might as well be a combo action for Queitus... a new line AoE that is locked behind Living Shadow... and I would rather it be part of line AoE burst combo that costs 3k MP that was 15 second cooldown and finally do away with Living Shadow so the devs can finally make a tank whose entire gimmick is Summoner but as a tank and not a Limited Job... Oh and half of the 4.3 Sole Survivor effect on our Shadow Wall replacement... which I would rather have Shadow Wall grant a buff the makes the 40% damage reduction available for 30 seconds, which can also be said for a LOT of replacement abilities...

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Aurora's CD is 60s @ 2 charges, so 2x 1200p in 2min. Just wanted to correct that.

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It's 1200 (200 per tick at 6 ticks) per Aurora charge which with 2 charges is 2400 every 60s which is 1200 every 30s so my math stands. I point out every 30s because you should use it, get the full usage, let your HP drop, then use it again, thus using it once every 30 seconds. The frequency of usage means at the 2 minute mark you can use your 4th charge. My math stands so idk what you are trying to correct here, but I hope this clarifies my statements.

Even if you drop off the last 1200 since it's a regen and doesn't happen inside the two minute window, the difference is still quite large.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

It's 1200 (200 per tick at 6 ticks) per Aurora charge which with 2 charges is 2400 every 60s which is 1200 every 30s so my math stands. I point out every 30s because you should use it, get the full usage, let your HP drop, then use it again, thus using it ocne every 30 seconds. The frequency of usage means at the 2 minute mark you can use your 4th charge. My math stands so idk what you are trying to correct here, but I hope this clarifies my statements.

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.... huh?
No, you start with 2 charges, you get 1 charges every minute. You can't use it every 30 seconds.
Of course the first minute you'll get 2400 potency worth of healing over 36 seconds but past that it's one use every minutes, so 1200 potency.

Heart of Corundum is also 25 seconds, not 20.

Over 2 minutes, you'll have 3 uses of Aurora (not counting the one coming back at the 2nd minute, because it hasn't ticked yet) and 4.8 uses of corundum.
That's 3600 from Auroras and 3600 from Corundums, so 7200 over 2 minutes, 8100 if you round up the corundum usage.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

.... huh?
No, you start with 2 charges, you get 1 charges every minute. You can't use it every 30 seconds.
Of course the first minute you'll get 2400 potency worth of healing over 36 seconds but past that it's one use every minutes, so 1200 potency.

Heart of Corundum is also 25 seconds, not 20.

Over 2 minutes, you'll have 3 uses of Aurora (not counting the one coming back at the 2nd minute, because it hasn't ticked yet) and 4.8 uses of corundum.
That's 3600 from Auroras and 3600 from Corundums, so 7200 over 2 minutes, 8100 if you round up the corundum usage.

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Everything you said about Aurora is what I said, yes. As for the HoC error, my head was in PLD space who can HS approx every 20 seconds in ideal scenarios, my mistake there.