How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

^ Skill speed goon, new meta?

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I think it has to be, its on almost every piece of our gear.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

^ Skill speed goon, new meta?

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I think you misunderstood, SS has nothing to do with the test. We didn't use the Arrow card which is SS, we used the Spear which is the CD reduction. Spear doesn't reduce your weaponskill CDs (full thrust, True thrust, etc.), it reduces your OGCDs (B4B, Jumps, Dragon sight, etc.). The reduction of our jumps and Geirks allow us to get LoTD up much quicker. I think it was like an 8% dps increase over 3 mins

It also seems kind of ironic, now I think about it... the card is called "Spear," like a drg spear! <mind blown>

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

I think you misunderstood, SS has nothing to do with the test. We didn't use the Arrow card which is SS, we used the Spear which is the CD reduction. Spear doesn't reduce your weaponskill CDs (full thrust, True thrust, etc.), it reduces your OGCDs (B4B, Jumps, Dragon sight, etc.). The reduction of our jumps and Geirks allow us to get LoTD up much quicker. I think it was like an 8% dps increase over 3 mins

It also seems kind of ironic, now I think about it... the card is called "Spear," like a drg spear! <mind blown>

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(It also allows for 4 nastronds if you get it during LotD, I have come across this a few times :feelsgoodman: )

Does spear apply itself retroactively or do your oGCDs have to be cast under spear?

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Originally Posted by Finroy

Does spear apply itself retroactively or do your oGCDs have to be cast under spear?

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The latter. In most cases that means this wont effect things like litany which are used rarely but it will effect things that are used frequently like jump.

Still, if it came to spear or balance, i'll take balance plz.

Balance will always be better since spear won't retroactively apply. Can't tell if they did it on purpose cause they think spear would be OP or they are just that stupid at coding.

So with all the rotation I am seeing, is there one that seems to be the definitive right now or is it still be tested based on SS?

I feel now that the state of Dragoon's DPS loss makes it more of class that will not be viable in Savage content, especially now SE dumped 2 more OP DPS classes. Guess we will have to wait and see come July 28th. I for one don't want no part of being a third wheel support class.

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Originally Posted by Jeatac

I feel now that the state of Dragoon's DPS loss makes it more of class that will not be viable in Savage content, especially now SE dumped 2 more OP DPS classes. Guess we will have to wait and see come July 28th. I for one don't want no part of being a third wheel support class.

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Depends on your group. Tho the class makes me go insane, my group doesn't care as it would take far too long to level up SAM.

Heavy >> (BoTD+Litany) Impulse >> (GK) Disembowel >> (B4B + DS) Chaos >> (Jump) WT >> (MD) FC >> (SS) TT >> (MD) VT >> (LS) FT >> (DfD) FC >> WT.

After last WT is when B4B and DS ends. I choose to give up a buffed GK in exchange for a buffed WT at end. I was always coming up short buffing WT.

I also liked GK at its current spot over shifting B4B+DS where my current GK is for when GK comes back up its free of clipping anything. It will come up with Jump still at 2-3 secs. Then of course when GK comes back around a 3rd time I will have just used Jump for my 4th eye. At this moment there is about 6 secs until B4B is up. You can choose to do unbuffed GK+Nastrond or hold about 6 secs to for B4B and do the whole GK+3 Nastrond in B4B. Your typically at Disembowel or Chaos Thrust when your hitting 4th eye. So when you B4B your doing a buffed FC and WT and then a buffed Thrust Combo. There's a Spineshatter in there also.

You should still be able to hit at least one of the 2 damage buffs (the one that you weaved 2nd) on the WT with the ridiculous amount of SS they give us and not only do you lose a double buffed GSK also you really want Spineshatter and Jump to be as close to each other on CD as possible. From what you say you jump > GSK/Nastrond > Spineshatter. This isn't optimal as using a Pot will mean either the pot or DS/BfB will not buff the chaos thrust.

Also unless you live in the data centre and BfB was 20.1 seconds duration there is no way in hell you are hitting all 3 nastronds in BfB without a spear card or some shit. As a matter of fact it will be even more impossible as you would try to fit GSK in there.

Sorry was late when posted. Meant to say you can choose to hold b4b for when entering gk and nastrond. Or you can use when b4b is up to buff chaos at that point. Also after your 3rd jump you have spineshatter at about 6 secs CD. So you hit next ssd during nastrond and build an eye rather then waste. Atm idk where I want infusion. It can go where jump is and I just use jump next ogcd window. Might even consider popping infusion before I even heavy. This is just rotation I've found on sss dummy that got me most damage. I'm ps4 player. So that rotation without DS got me 78 percent. Best I've done was 27secs left with dh build at i314.

Also we get down to 1100 or 1200 skill speed in a mix of new gear. If put on omega head, hands, feet, waist, then 3 accessory you get around that skill speed range and about 1700 direct hit. You leave on 310 body, legs, and 2 lakshmi accessory. Thats all obtainable before savage also. Assuming you run omega normal on third week before savage

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Originally Posted by Jeatac

I feel now that the state of Dragoon's DPS loss makes it more of class that will not be viable in Savage content, especially now SE dumped 2 more OP DPS classes. Guess we will have to wait and see come July 28th. I for one don't want no part of being a third wheel support class.

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DRG won't be in meta that's for sure. Savage progression is going to be a lot of deaths and that will be devastating to a dragoon. I can't talk for MNK/NIN but in my static the SAM dies yet still gets top dps because they can recover so fast and outputs more.

DRG dies and the BRD now out does them. So DRG in savage isn't going to be wanted imo. SAM is superior and MNK/NIN bring better utility and dps. UNless we get a major buff and some rotation fixes we're going to get passed up. Granted still can pull our weight, just it's going to be a struggle.

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Originally Posted by Sparhwk

DRG won't be in meta that's for sure. Savage progression is going to be a lot of deaths and that will be devastating to a dragoon. I can't talk for MNK/NIN but in my static the SAM dies yet still gets top dps because they can recover so fast and outputs more.

DRG dies and the BRD now out does them. So DRG in savage isn't going to be wanted imo. SAM is superior and MNK/NIN bring better utility and dps. UNless we get a major buff and some rotation fixes we're going to get passed up. Granted still can pull our weight, just it's going to be a struggle.

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As a former drg main, this is heartbreaking to read. DRG was always a holdover til SAM for me, even back on 2.X, but damn if I didn't fall in love with the Job, especially in HW

I don't know if I should alternate CT and FT combos like 3.x or CT->FTx2->CT.

When I do CT->FT, Disembowel and Chaos Thrust are at like 9/12 seconds. Do I refresh them and clip them or just do a FT combo and have them drop for about 5 seconds? Hard to tell.

Ignoring Disembowel effects, CT needs 4 ticks to beat FT (they're kinda equal but there's a minuscule SS buff and a conjectured-but-plausible slight rounding bias for very low potencies):

190+230+270+4×(35+ε)=830+ε
150+240+440=830

The difference gets only more pronounced with Disembowel in the mix because you'd have to assume that losing it is biased towards your filler combo finishers; because 5-GCD combos are roughly those 4 ticks, having Disembowel on is the only thing that makes filler worth using instead of spamming Chaos Thrust combo every time, and even then only slightly!

So for the level 70 rotation:

HT | ID Di CT WT FC | TT VT FT FC WT
217.35 + 1569.75 + (40.25+ε)×([7,10]) + 1738.8 ~= [3807.65, 3928.4]/11 = [346.15, 357.13]+ε potency per weaponskill

It's 11 GCDs, so even with an extreme 2.0s GCD and no GCD clipping, CT clips at 8s, which is 3 ticks lost at absolute worst. Heavy Thrust, Disembowel, and Chaos Thrust (all 30s) get almost-perfect coverage with a no-SS 2.5s GCD and a little bit of GCD clipping (between 27.5 and 30 seconds). I find it hard to justify the effort of comprehensively analyzing another rotation's quirks until we know what's coming in 4.05.

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HT | ID Di CT WT FC | TT VT FT FC WT
217.35 + 1569.75 + (40.25+ε)×([7,10]) + 1738.8 ~= [3807.65, 3928.4]/11 = [346.15, 357.13]+ε potency per weaponskill

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So: HT>CT+4,5>FT+4,5 then repeat?

Always feels bad clipping Dots by so much. Oh well.

It's really not as bad as it looks in the first place. Ever notice how your GCD is more than halfway done before the CT DoT actually applies? That's when the 30 seconds starts, and the clip so many seconds down the line is going to be delayed by exactly as much.

I guess. 2.x rotation was perfect because [HT-CT-FT-HT-FT-CT-repeat] was perfect. I remember every time I was reapplying HT there was 2s left so it was just about to fall off but enough duration left such that the fresh HT was still buffed by the old HT. Dis and Chaos were the same thing, roughly 3 seconds left when you were about to reapply. It was always a tight squeeze but it felt good when you pulled it off. Also double FT in a single B4B was awesome because it took perfect timing to pull off.

2.x DRG was fun :(

Is there an optimum skill speed for DRG at the moment?

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

Is there an optimum skill speed for DRG at the moment?

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500 or less. Basically, be nude x'D

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Originally Posted by Erys

500 or less. Basically, be nude x'D

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Or wear Sam gear. Don't they end up with like 700 SS? As opposed to dragoon with its 1500-1600 SS. We didn't need all that Crit and direct hit anyway, we may pull agro and die robbing the raid of all of our buffs that "greatly increase the raid's damage".

not that I'm bitter

I think SE gave us high SS to make up for the fact that we have no haste buff like NIN SAM MNK do. *shrug*

I just tried this tonight with my static.

We can hit a dummy to get our 4 eyes and enter the duty and do a Nastrond opener. So you need to go through a full rotation until you get 4 eyes and both Jump and SSD are on cd. Also your AST should draw a second balance as close to your refresh hits as possible and then your party leader has to queue as you do so. Playing on ps4 and on wifi, the load time allowed me to start with 10-15s on botd.

Any ideas on how much we would gain in terms of dps if this is a thing?

Damage of additional nastronds / encounter length. Assuming they are indeed additional, of course.

It'd be more, it'd be real, it'd... not be a lot. Let's say less than 2% improvement on a blazing fast ~6m raid that goes from 8 to 11 Nastronds that way (assuming such is possible), less if it's slower than that. Is 1% the sort of ballpark we bandy about all the time in these DPS forums? Yes, that would be more than what is usually discussed. Is the effort worth 1%? Well....

So i hadn't played since just before HW release. I recently hit 60 and wrapped up most of HW. Class felt off, lower DPS than I remember, rotation kind of clunky. Not at all like I remember. I came to the forums to check out if I was missing some major components in my play. After reading the last 10 pages of this thread glad to know I'm not alone in thinking the class is not what it really should be. Seriously considering picking BRD back up or leveling a tank.

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Originally Posted by Erys

I just tried this tonight with my static.

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Any ideas on how much we would gain in terms of dps if this is a thing?

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Also, a class is clearly not right if a serious consideration becomes "pre loading" outside of a duty...

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Originally Posted by Vlado

So i hadn't played since just before HW release. I recently hit 60 and wrapped up most of HW. Class felt off, lower DPS than I remember, rotation kind of clunky. Not at all like I remember.

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Because dragoon is effectively incomplete below 70. 3.x dragoon was gutted, there's 2.x dragoon and a really awkward step between it and 4.0 dragoon.

What melds are you guys using on the omega nm gear? I'm going full crit atm.

I was going full crit but I'm going to switch to DH/Det as I get omega gear. According to some stuff on reddit, crit doesn't pull ahead until you have 2500-3000+ rating. And we don't have very much on our gear to begin with so it's impossible to reach those values for now.

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Originally Posted by Ninjah2r

What melds are you guys using on the omega nm gear? I'm going full crit atm.

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I also decided going with DH would be better than crit, as the return seems to be a better return off the bat. Until we get (if we get) better crit gear, it seems that pumping all into crit at the moment might be a waste. Not sure if its been properly confirmed yet or not though.

Haven't started adding any melds yet though, still plenty of time to decide once people have gotten more gear or confirmation by those crunching the numbers start flooding the communication channels :)

i went for DH when the stars align (All the buffs) my full thrust is critting for 19k. usually in the first 30seconds to a minute of a fight i top the dps meters, as mechanics come into play and other classes hit their stride i fall back down to 3rdish depending on gear and class make up.

also with the new tombstone coming out next week (iirc) the BIS will change. there is some omega gear with no crit or dh on it right now.

i am using materia 5s since i have a ton but i wont go overboard trying to get 6s till we hit that point were gear wont be changing for a few months and its true BIS.

hmm, yeah I'm still torn in between DH or staying Crit and not redoing my melds on current gear/future gear. Any idea/info on stat weights? It feels like drg is abandoned atm haha. Anyone got their highest potency opener/rotation sorted out? I need some rotations to compare at, I have Aoi's opener now from YTube, but still am open to better ones if there are any :D

DRG is not abandoned. DRG is waiting for Tuesday.

For openers you can check Aio Auroka and Momo Kyun's videos on youtube. As for stat weights, even if they have figured out the formulas I doubt they'll release anything until after next tuesday, (cmiiw) since stat weights are calculated relative to our stats in BiS gear (even if they calculate them for current i320 gear, the weights will change again after we get savage gear).

@Aleph, already using Aio's/Momo's Early GK opener :) still ty!

@Sunny, tbh I personally have lost hope for SE to do major job changes to DRG. Because it does need some big changes imo, if they're gonna increase potency on Sonic Thrust like people are speculating, or 20-30 potency on some other skill it won't make a difference I think. We really do not need small changes, but hard to argue that when Yoshi thinks that drg should be like this, no room for critique then.

Maybe I've gotten old, or maybe I don't have enough skin in the game having gone casul, but I waited a year for DRG to be acceptable before, and I can do it again. Certainly I can wait one week for things to be set in stone before going hog wild on theory.

The JP discussion on the topic has slowed down but is no less fierce for it. The battle system designers do not need to read a single word I write on the topic at this point. The things they do need to see are already in that thread. Some of those posts have likes in the double and triple digits. They also have charts and stuff, it's rather impressive, really.

Dedicated theory crafters can blow the devs out of the water. The problem is the devs in every game are super stubborn and will never explain the real reason why they make certain changes. It probably stings really fierce when a player can show you how stupid you are so it's eaiser to just tell the player to stfu and deal with. Cause in the end there is little we can do.

Assuming the devs have the same info then they should be able to see why some melee or other classes are suffering and with feedback can fix it. Instead we get yoshi telling us DRG provide amazing group damage when we can eaisly prove otherwise. I want to know what his data is showing how great we are. Cause the only time I see DRG doing close to a SAM or others is when they get balance at like 80%+ uptime and the SAM isn't in that party.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

DRG is not abandoned. DRG is waiting for Tuesday.

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what is tuesday? is someone gonna finally pay me for all those cheeseburgers?