Let's redefine "damage taxes"

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

RDM was never difficult and it never will be. It, only with SAM, came into existence during the dumbing down of the game. HW versions of DRK, AST, and MCH were all very different. But you know this already. So why pretend it is super complex?



Job changes affect everyone, not just those who have time or desire to play savage/ultimates. It's just that the greatest concentration of need is in that area, so it is the area that should have the focus. It is not the correct course of actions to speak only for oneself, but to try and balance the game for everyone.

Anyone that believes that only certain people can talk at the table are actual elitists and elitists are generally overcompensating for something. The same is true in the pvp world.

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Yeah, you're right. QoL is perfectly fine but if a player who doesn't do savage says something about balance and buffing/nerfing damage of a job, there's a pretty big issue. Only raiders care for that. I was also referring a fool that everyone has figured out he's a fool but I don't want to quote him anymore because he ain't worth the effort to get a troll reply.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Except for MCH and SMN because your idea of balance would bury them to the point that they may as well not exist.

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Imagine still claiming this when MCH still exists now AND the gap between it and DNC/BRD would be smaller with proper balance. And SMN would still be flocked to just on flavor alone. Just stop

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Yeah, you're right. QoL is perfectly fine but if a player who doesn't do savage says something about balance and buffing/nerfing damage of a job, there's a pretty big issue. Only raiders care for that. I was also referring a fool that everyone has figured out he's a fool but I don't want to quote him anymore because he ain't worth the effort to get a troll reply.

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You really don't understand that people want others to have a good game too? More so if they share the same job.

You don't even have to raid to pick up what jobs have what issues. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

On the flip side, someone could watch pvp matches and start to see what job changes are needed and outside perspectives are often more needed than not.

SE if you're reading this, please understand that this is less of a "debate" and just one person arguing with literally everyone else.

Balance the DPS with each other without regard to role.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Imagine still claiming this when MCH still exists now AND the gap between it and DNC/BRD would be smaller with proper balance. And SMN would still be flocked to just on flavor alone. Just stop

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Imagine not realizing that MCH right now is outright being blocked from the majority of PF's.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

You really don't understand that people want others to have a good game too? More so if they share the same job.

You don't even have to raid to pick up what jobs have what issues. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

On the flip side, someone could watch pvp matches and start to see what job changes are needed and outside perspectives are often more needed than not.

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If you're a casual and don't raid, then you probably have a pretty fantastic game. You wouldn't care about damage, you'd play the job you like. You may dislike stuff they've done like removing Kaiten and voice your concerns. As a balance stand point, removing Kaiten doesn't matter as long SAM still performs as it used to. Same goes for the rework of SMN & MNK. MNK is blessed because they perform really well. SMN is cursed because they really killed any creativity to optimize. A casual wouldn't care about that. All he sees is how cool he is to be the Ultima Weapon.

I've seen really bad players and some are my rl friends. I can't stress enough I know a Bard main who doesn't cast a single song. You think he really cares about his damage? He is having fun but he's smart enough to understand his opinion isn't needed in OF because he has no desire for that kind of stuff.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

If you're a casual and don't raid, then you probably have a pretty fantastic game. You wouldn't care about damage, you'd play the job you like. You may dislike stuff they've done like removing Kaiten and voice your concerns. As a balance stand point, removing Kaiten doesn't matter as long SAM still performs as it used to. Same goes for the rework of SMN & MNK. MNK is blessed because they perform really well. SMN is cursed because they really killed any creativity to optimize. A casual wouldn't care about that. All he sees is how cool he is to be the Ultima Weapon.

I've seen really bad players and some are my rl friends. I can't stress enough I know a Bard main who doesn't cast a single song. You think he really cares about his damage? He is having fun but he's smart enough to understand his opinion isn't needed in OF because he has no desire for that kind of stuff.

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That's a lie. Just because people don't want to or have time to play savage, it doesn't mean they don't care about damage in the content they do. You basically lumped everyone that doesn't play savage into one category of ability and willingness to put in their best efforts.

What you said was beyond elitist, and I actually detest using that word.

I also would not call multi-season ranked pvpers casual. I know many people that raid and pvp, and pretty much everyone agrees ranked pvp is more stressful.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Hypocrisy, thy name is Mithron. I love how you've tried to claim I use logical fallacies, then proceed to ad hominem. And not even well at that since it was inaccurate. Try better

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I don't think you shouldn't speak because you're casual, I think you shouldn't speak because you're always wrong. Just giving you a taste of your own logical fallacies. :)

You never explained in great detail why DNC is harder than MCH. "Closed position changes" and "react to RNG" are not harder than MCH, so explain more.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I don't think you shouldn't speak because you're casual, I think you shouldn't speak because you're always wrong. Just giving you a taste of your own logical fallacies. :)

You never explained in great detail why DNC is harder than MCH. "Closed position changes" and "react to RNG" are not harder than MCH, so explain more.

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I mean, the whole "FireMage is always trolling and wrong" thing is funny, sure, but in this case he is quite correct indeed. Just based on current fflogs statistics the Δ between 5th and 95th percentiles for the jobs are:

MCH: 9791 - 7968 = 1823 DPS (the lowest across all jobs).
DNC: 10205 - 8142 = 2063 DPS.
and just for funsies since there seems to be a complete agreement on how BLM is the gigabrain job in this thread: 10604 - 8064 = 2540 DPS (the highest across all jobs).

More than that, MCH has significantly lower spread between 50th and 95th percentiles compared to other jobs. In short, there is a single objectively correct way to play MCH - the entire rotation is a math equation and can be solved for a single correct answer. You just press the buttons in the exact order. It is likely possible to teach a talented monkey to execute. Similar to SMN, MCH optimization isn't hard, it simply has none. The only thing that separates about top 20% of all MCHs is damage variance, crit luck and gear.

Now, DNC has undeniably lost some of ShB complexity. Melee procs are gone, Flourish gives unique procs and Esprit generation from your GCDs is now static. But at the same time, addition of Tillana and especially 6.08 changes have (and I'm willing to bet absolutely unitentionally by SE) created a very curious case of 3.5 Standard Step rotation since SS is now weaker than every other GCD except the basic combo. Technical windows now require a bit of setup and thinking on the fly in regards to pooling procs and Esprit and actively making a decision to forego SS in a given window. It's not very complex, no, but it is definitely more variable than anything MCH can ever offer.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

I mean, the whole "FireMage is always trolling and wrong" thing is funny, sure, but in this case he is quite correct indeed.

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His case isn't that DNC does more damage than MCH currently, we all know that, his case is that DNC should do more damage than MCH simply because he believes MCH is objectively easier to play and regardless of them not bringing any raid damage buffs, which is definitely not "quite correct."