What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Hermes gives an explaination after the group fills him in on the Final Days. Essentially because the Song was projected to the Star from outer space its effects were first felt in the locations where the currents were naturally thinnest then just deteriorated things from there.

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Yeah, I just interpreted that as a pre-existing issue that allowed the Song to get through.... I didn't realize that it actively caused the erosion of Aether.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

She's the one who put the Ascians in that position, after fracturing every life on the planet and eliminating her kind to the point she even refers to herself as the "last of my kind", alongside "supreme deity". Besides, they're not talking about the Ascians but the sacrifices planned before the sundering but after the planet was revitalised. Sacrifices which not a single source is specific on (beyond references like "new life" after Zodiark stimulated regrowth of the planet), and which her group does not dispute the ethics of, suggesting they may well be something closer to the entities created in Elpis. Her group's issue is they think the ancients should "move on" to avoid an eventual doom, but as far as we can tell, she never really informs her people as to the why of it beyond vague musings about suffering.

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There were only two sacrifices made, and that was of the Ancients when summoning Zodiark and Hydaelyn, and both times were self-sacrifices.

Venat's group objected to the non-self-sacrifice that Zodiark's group was planning.

So my point is the same regardless of whether it's talking about the Ascians after the sundering or before. We didn't need to sacrifice anyone to bring back our dead.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

In this situation it does, because they state time and time again they’re essentially equal. Neither is good nor bad yet one is painted in a much better light than the other and is given far better treatment.

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Again, how they can be viewed morally has nothing to do with their treatment/recognition.

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As for the problems, it’s like i said, that plot point goes against the theme. The theme of this expansion and even since the start of the game has been loss,suffering,dealing with loss etc.It’s even in the main song of this expansion. Loss and fire. We see it throughout the expansions of characters having to deal with the death of close ones. Yet, this expansion in Ultima Thule, instead of accepting they’re gone, the scions are brought back from the dead. The very thing people have bashed the ascians/ancients for attempting to do for their people.

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But the WoL did accept their sacrifice. It wasn't until they were able to be safely returned that it was done. There's no problem here in terms of theme because the point of living in hope remains, and part of that hope is that sometimes there is a good ending. The problem with Meteion's despair is ultimate loss of hope due to the final end regardless of any joy that could be had in the meantime.

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A last side note on the hydaelyn and zodiark thing, i do find it a bit humorous how people say we don’t need both sides to be equal, yada yada, and yes i guarantee if it was the other way around and it was Hydaelyn who was shafted and portrayed not as good as Zodiark people would be raising pitchforks. In the end though my last comment still stands, where are the ascian minions and zodiark minion? How have we not gotten an Emet minion yet, but Venat of all people gets one for genociding the world.

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Well, you can't guarantee that because it didn't happen. What-if scenarios is irrelevant. Regardless, it's their choice to make any minion they want. Feel free to request it, but if they don't make it, that has nothing to do with the story.

I have no problem with Zodiark in Endwalker, but it's important to keep in mind that the real Zodiark fight is Seat of Sacrifice. The Dark Inside is just Fandaniel piloting a Zodiark suit with crazy cosmic powers.

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Originally Posted by linayar

There were only two sacrifices made, and that was of the Ancients when summoning Zodiark and Hydaelyn, and both times were self-sacrifices.

Venat's group objected to the non-self-sacrifice that Zodiark's group was planning.

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Yes, but not because a sacrifice was involved, but because she believed her people would eventually doom themselves if all went back to how it used to be. This is the case both in SHB (where the scene is not specific to what their concern was about), and EW, where she believes it'll meet the fate of the star identified in Meteion's report. Stopping the sacrifices and surrendering the star to the vague "new lives" is ancillary to that goal...

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So my point is the same regardless of whether it's talking about the Ascians after the sundering or before. We didn't need to sacrifice anyone to bring back our dead.

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Without any knowledge of what the ancients intended to sacrifice, we've little awareness of whether an "anyone" as opposed to "anything" is even involved, and the relevant parties put more focus on the ultimate outcome (their doom repeating) than the means. As for the Ascians? They were left in the unfortunate position where the Rejoinings are the only means they have to reverse what she did.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yes, but not because a sacrifice was involved, but because she believed her people would eventually doom themselves if all went back to how it used to be. This is the case both in SHB (where the scene is not specific to what their concern was about), and EW, where she believes it'll meet the fate of the star identified in Meteion's report. Stopping the sacrifices and surrendering the star to the vague "new lives" is ancillary to that goal...



Without any knowledge of what the ancients intended to sacrifice, we've little awareness of whether an "anyone" as opposed to "anything" is even involved, and the relevant parties put more focus on the ultimate outcome (their doom repeating) than the means. As for the Ascians? They were left in the unfortunate position where the Rejoinings are the only means they have to reverse what she did.

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And the rejoining is at the center of our conflict with them. This story is told from our point of view. Regardless of their reason or who you think is at fault, we are dealing with the fact that they want to kill us to save their dead. We're not arguing about their desired outcome, but the means by which they want to reach that outcome. And if the rejoining is the only way, then there is no doubt that we will oppose them.

Either way, it still differs from our situation in Ultima Thule.

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Originally Posted by Fayt1203

I don't want to nitpicking anything but they were not dead to begin with so we did not bring them back from the dead. they became the elements( like Estinien became the wind and so on) that paid the way forward for us. but they would eventually die if nothing would be done in time.

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They were for all intents and purposes dead had we not intervened. The point is, the theme has been learning to deal with loss and death and moving forward. Yet we still bring them back so what exactly is the moral of the story here? Just be the main protagonists of the story and you can be resurrected? Think about all of the people in Thavnair and Garlemald who actually had to suffer. Meanwhile the scions “sacrifice” themselves only to be brought back moments later. So much for loss and suffering, they felt none of it. That’s exactly my point. It’s no different than the whole ticking time bomb thing in ShB with the scions only for it to amount to nothing. It’s these constant death flags and fakeout deaths that just amount to nothing that attributed to dislike of this expansion. Not very good writing imo.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They were for all intents and purposes dead had we not intervened. The point is, the theme has been learning to deal with loss and death and moving forward. Yet we still bring them back so what exactly is the moral of the story here? Just be the main protagonists of the story and you can be resurrected? Think about all of the people in Thavnair and Garlemald who actually had to suffer. Meanwhile the scions “sacrifice” themselves only to be brought back moments later. So much for loss and suffering, they felt none of it. That’s exactly my point. It’s no different than the whole ticking time bomb thing in ShB with the scions only for it to amount to nothing. It’s these constant death flags and fakeout deaths that just amount to nothing that attributed to dislike of this expansion. Not very good writing imo.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

I have no problem with Zodiark in Endwalker, but it's important to keep in mind that the real Zodiark fight is Seat of Sacrifice. The Dark Inside is just Fandaniel piloting a Zodiark suit with crazy cosmic powers.

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Even that was a let down for me though. Elidibus is one of my favorite characters so to see him just reduced and used as ff1 fanservice was a letdown to say the least. Not to mention he didnt really tap into Zodiark's power much during the fight. All this talk about him bringing balance etc, and there wasnt really any balance shtick in his fight. Im not sure what part of his fight really screams Zodiark?

Elidibus is definitely shafted in terms of screentime, which is a shame because he likely could have balanced the discussion to not be so skewed in Hydaelyn's favor, and bring back some of the nuance Shadowbringers built up, if he'd only had more scenes. That being said, I honestly really like the way his final fight was handled in 5.3, even though it is very much FF1 fanservice. I think what Berteaux was suggesting earlier was that while not Zodiark in form, Elidibus in that moment embodies what Zodiark was always meant to be, a savior made to bring about the world's salvation. The actual Zodiark you fight is a sundered husk of his former self, being piloted by a raving madman. Elidibus was the one selected to control Zodiark and stop the Final Days, he is his true heart, so in many ways he truly is as he proclaims: 'Mankind's first hero' and the true Zodiark.

And if I may also be a bit self-indulgent, I like to think with Endwalker in mind, that some of the lyrics in his theme 'To the Edge' allude to the Convocation acting without the knowledge that Venat could have provided to them, and how even he might have felt deep inside that Zodiark was a temporary solution to a much larger problem, that couldn't be seen:

"Without a compass, wandering, lost in lies of faith.
(Faith slowly wasting away)
Only alive in fighting death's amber embrace.
(Our hearts beat, loud, unafraid)
On hands and knees we pray to Gods we've never seen."

It's really interesting, it seems to me like part of him believed that there was something deeper going on, and the way the lyrics go, it makes it seem like he knew they were stumbling around blind to something important.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

She very clearly didn’t have that power.

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She did, as we learn during her trial, she just didn't want to use it to save the First. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given her contingency plan was to abandon the shards anyway. Regardless, the problem with knowing the future is she should've had an eye on Ardbert to ensure the Flood never happened in the first place.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

Elidibus is definitely shafted in terms of screentime, which is a shame because he likely could have balanced the discussion to not be so skewed in Hydaelyn's favor, and bring back some of the nuance Shadowbringers built up, if he'd only had more scenes.

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It makes me wonder what's planned for Pandemonium. He also wasn't summoned back along with Emet and Hythlodaeus, wasn't present during their walk past us during the credits, and wasn't featured in the post-credit art either. Since he "died" sending the WoL to the past you think he'd be seen somewhere along the way.

I loved one of his final lines, "May you have...the joy of it. The burden...and the solitude." Given that he was supposed to be acting as a mediator during the Final Days, I'm sure he had some stories to tell.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

T The point is, the theme has been learning to deal with loss and death and moving forward. Yet we still bring them back so what exactly is the moral of the story here? Just be the main protagonists of the story and you can be resurrected? Think about all of the people in Thavnair and Garlemald who actually had to suffer. Meanwhile the scions “sacrifice” themselves only to be brought back moments later. So much for loss and suffering, they felt none of it. That’s exactly my point. It’s no different than the whole ticking time bomb thing in ShB with the scions only for it to amount to nothing. It’s these constant death flags and fakeout deaths that just amount to nothing that attributed to dislike of this expansion. Not very good writing imo.

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just so you know that theme has been going on since heavensward.
more i read more it feel like that you are just salty that none of the main cast died or the theme does not apply because none of the main cast died. it could just be me though, Everyone Interpret the story in different way ofc