Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

You don't pay any attention to anything but what you want, too.

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You're funny. You're also obviously upset that you have literally no good arguments at all. You claim we don't listen, but we do. That's how we know your points are bogus at best.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Having raise on the job literally won't even affect you, it will only affect those of us who will most likely be forced into playing SMN. Again. So don't pretend like you're somehow holier than me because you vehemently don't want raise on the job for absolutely selfish reasons (or meaningless ones) as well. To reiterate again, I don't even really want raise on the job, I want the role to be balanced, and raise on the job is the most likely scenario with which to achieve that. If said balance doesn't even affect you, then why are you arguing with me about it?

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Next you'll be preaching to us about why machinists should be tanks, paladins should be healers, dark knights should be gatherers, and blue mages should be something other than clowns. You don't have any idea at all what will or will not affect me or any other given player, so to quite EllieShadeflare, "OUT OF THE YARD." Who died and made you Hydaelyn, huh? I'll argue if I darn well please, thanks. First and foremost, in fact, no one is forcing you to play anything, including this game. If you want to play black mage, then play black mage. Screw everyone who demands you play something else for any reason ever. Screw the meta, because it's not useful for anything but World firsts.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Also, you really can't use lore as your argument and then cite lore as your counter-argument, that's pretty circular logic (with regards to your suggestion that the different games have different continuities. Of course they do, but the point is that the FF series is not "set in stone" which is what was asserted before.)

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Really? Then why are there always chocobos, moogles, a Cid, and so forth? PROBABLY BECAUSE THE LORE IS SET IN STONE. PAY. ATTENTION. And by the way, the fact you're even calling my argument "circular logic" demonstrates you failed to grasp my point to start with, which was this: even if necromancy is a thing we should be capable of from a lore standpoint, we don't do it because we aren't evil people. See also EllieShadeflare's point on void magic. We don't use it because we're not the bad guys trying to bring about a second War of the Magi. Again, PAY. ATTENTION.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

And nope, try again. The devs have been "set in stone" about plenty of things that they have then switched stance on. One good example would be alliance raid roulette. yoship saying back in July (read: before savage/ultimate prog even began) that BLM doesn't need raise is practically irrelevant at this point, particularly if we as a community continue to assert why it is necessary to balance the role. They want (and repeatedly ask for) our feedback.

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I'm pretty sure they want feedback that is actually intelligent. Giving a Raise variant of any sort to a job that literally should not be using such a thing is not that. Think before you offer advice, especially on topics you obviously don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Furthermore, in case you haven't seen, there are about 15 RDMs that have cleared unending coil, and upwards of 30 SMNs. There are exactly TWO BLMs who have done it, and with neck-and-neck statistics with the RDMs that have. I won't say that RDM doesn't need adjustments (in my opinion, particularly to Embolden, but that's a topic for another thread), but you certainly can't say that it's less viable than BLM in any way, shape, or form.

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I've seen, I just don't care. Dark knight's considered to be the worst tank right now, but guess what job was used to clear the Unending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate) for the first time? Maybe instead of getting wrapped up in all this stupid min/maxing, you should just play what you enjoy and not let yourself be "forced" to play a job you don't want to play.

Now, literally all you have done that I've seen is complain that you can't do literally everything on a single job. You have zero ground upon which to stand, every point you've tried to make has been utterly obliterated, and yet you continue to post here as if you have something intelligent to contribute. But you don't. You don't understand lore. You don't understand gameplay. You don't understand balance.

What would actually help is if black mages did the most damage of the DPS Disciple of Magic jobs, red mages did more damage so they could be on par with summoners, and summoners were left alone. There's no need to add utility to a job that's only ever had utility one time in the entire series, especially if black mages do the most damage and we then choose between red mage's Vercure or summoner's Contagion/Radiant Shield.

No, I don't think Black Mages should get a rez. Personally, I don't think Summoners should have one too and have it a Scholar ability only. But if they keep it, that's fine. It is what it is.

My 2 gil.

I'm hesitant to even start talking in this thread again lest I be screamed at for "not understanding" my main job in raid of four years by people who barely play the class, but since I'm masochistic I suppose, here goes!



If you have to "tunnel vision" to keep up your rotation of "spam Fire IV and recharge when necessary" then I have bad news for you....

If you've been keeping up with the other threads, I've been highly recommending reliable proc strategies, which would provide ample opportunity for off-GCD weaving, helping with both mana shift and this theoretical raise (and aetherial manipulation and no clipping for throwing up other buffs). Again read that adding raise alone to BLM will certainly not fix the class, and that there is a LOT of other attention that it needs. (further, I mean no disrespect, but you mentioned in the other thread that perhaps there are "more things for you to learn about BLM" from Zuzu and that you are still progressing through deltascape savage. Perhaps keep this in mind before fighting with me so staunchly about the balance of the class; I'm not the best BLM in the world certainly, but I have been around the block on it. A lot.)

Furthermore, your necromancy refute is STILL weak. "We don't know anything about it", well mate, WE GON LEARN TODAI (read: the devs can do whatever they damn well please). They could decide to come up with ANYTHING they want to justify it, and it would definitely be more satisfying than just throwing the resurrection skill on the job with no backstory at all. Also, not sure what "yard" you're referring to, but if I'm going to be called out for telling people to "go away", then you are going to get called out for it, too.

Tell you what, you're right: I don't care about the lore of BLM, if that's what you want to think. That's not really true, but since you don't seem interested in actually reading what I'm saying, it might as well be. What I'm trying to explain to you is that lore cannot get in the way of balance, and the lore of BLM "not being able to raise" is absolutely getting in the way of balance right now with the other two casters and their raise ability. IF they decide to remove them from the other two or balance them somehow, then everything is hunky-dory again. Sadly, it looks like that is not likely to be the case, so we collectively need to imagine a way to make a creative raise skill that makes sense on BLM (so, NOT a GCD like the other jobs, otherwise you could just enter Umbral Ice and then triplecast > raiseraiseraise, and that is NOT what we want).




....literally everything Ceallach said is nonsense and borderline flaming. "we listen" so, saying directly about raise being a cast because that's totally what I've been preaching this whole time (note the sarcasm). Suggesting that MCH should be able to tank because the caster role is off-balance is utterly non-sequitur. A for effort, though, I suppose. Count that there have been 37 DRKs that have cleared unending coil and two BLMs, this is because although DRK isn't "meta" it is CERTAINLY playable and capable of dealing with mechanics (plus, this has nothing to do with this thread, the tank role has zero access to raise, so it's "balanced" on this front). Since you don't play in the highest end content, maybe you haven't personally experienced being "forced" to play another job, but don't tell me that I haven't been forced and that it's not a very big issue with this game right now. And lastly, there you go again citing lore as both your argument and your counter-argument, but please, tell me more about how I'm the one who doesn't understand the issues with BLM in FFXIV.

That is a bit of a stretch however, because BLM is playable and capable of doing ultimate too, frankly would be interested to see how many ppl went DRK after lucrezia's kill, since before their kill the mere thought of a DRK in it was thought as a lunacy.
On the dps front the fight has been cleared with some extremely odd compositions, which means that the real bottleneck of the fight is not the comp but how you play in it, which is something lucrezia said too admist other things

As an extension of my previous post, I'm going to quote these here from page ~29 of this thread, because tfw the highest ranked BLM in the game (first to clear unending coil on the job) agrees with me:

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Originally Posted by Sfia

I can understand the viewpoint that lore-wise, BLM should NOT get a raise. From a balance standpoint however, it requires it, OR something of equivalent value as a defensive utility. And because raise is so powerful a tool, any ability with a benefit that matches it would be very difficult to implement and balance.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

There are always ways to work around that issue, put it on a timed cooldown and make it instant for example.
It depends what you're looking for. In speedruns defensive utility loses a lot of its value but very few groups operate at a level where that makes a big difference, whereas every raiding team WILL do progression - where defensive utility shines the brightest.
In my opinion, both offense and defense need to be increased. Not increasing defensive utility would lead to issues of its damage needing to be exorbitantly high (read: overpowered) to be in a form worth playing.

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...but please, tell me more about how I'm the one that doesn't understand the job.


@Remedi, if you go to the page, there are currently 37 DRKs who have cleared unending. If anyone ever thought that DRK in it was "lunacy", that is purely because PLD is just REALLY strong defense/support and WAR is basically assumed. However, they cleared it with PLD/DRK, if I recall correctly. Furthermore, odd composition DPS is perfectly fine, like I just mentioned in the other thread, no one is clamoring necessarily for BLM to be meta, just for it to compete on the progression front. You said yourself (I think) that Lucrezia admitted to taking RDM for early prog and then swapping out for MCH later on. Don't we want to avoid that kind of garbo?

Maybe only 2 BLM did UCoB for another reason of not having a Raise ability.
Maybe that fight needs a mobility BLM don't have if they are not excellent ones knowing already where to position perfectly and when.
I'm just saying, I mean it's not a proof, nothing tells us it's the lack of Raise that keep people from playing BLM there. Maybe the few who did it dislike BLM. After all, there is that DRK who done UCoB that said he just likes the class, and we are several to play a class just because we like it, and it's something possible on a low number of players.

Maybe that story of BiS not needing the same materias is boring for most caster players, and they prefered to get rid of their BLM in that regard.

(Very honestly, I would even prefer they only leave Raise to Red Mages, and get rid of it on SMN to offer SMN something else instead that would be worth. Red Mages are about safety, they have high mobility and support via heal and instant raise (and Embolden)).

By odd compositions I mean NIN-less (1 had a SAM for the slash down= and for the DRK it was pretty much lunacy till the kill, because the jobs brings nothing that a WAR can't bring in fact you are 1 raidCD less for the final phase as they said the only advantage they have it dark mind and we can say it is also living dead beign a bit longer than holmgang.

Frankly the fact they brought a DRK to the kill while switching the dps still kinda irks on me because to me it means there was a doublestandard when trying to reach a goal, but I suppose it all was worth it to their strategy which is what really makes the difference.

....and that right there is exactly why that gap should be closed, either by adjusting raise off the caster role, or by giving BLM an option to compete on the front.

@Fannah: Yes, I know the answer to all those "maybe"s because as a member of the raiding community I talk with many of the high-ranked BLMs/SMNs, and you're right, for unending it largely is a movement/damage issue, but closing the gap is critical and I don't think it can be understated. Not having raise on BLM in there was not a dealbreaker at this particular moment, but undeniably it would help bring value to the class.

Lack of raise is just one more reason not to bring BLM, not the ONLY reason. Likewise, the job not having raise is just one element that needs to be fixed not the ONLY element. Not sure why people in this thread can't seem to get that.

I don't speak for them, but I suppose they want other issues fixed instead of uniforming the role first

Well, in a way, if buffing BLM is already planed on 4.2, I believe we should just now wait to see what they prepared, maybe it'll be worth, at least it shows they know there is a problem.

Edit : I hope you did not disliked my "maybe"s, it was just a way of speech, it wasn't said in a mean way.

Edit 2 : Also, yes I believe people overall really want to know they pick Black Mages other than for an animation and style reason. Overall people playing Black Mage think about hurting bad enemies, imo. They even see raise and mobility as a reason/opportunity for them to hurt even more, not to be the same low risk classes.