Healers that don't want to DPS are like DPSes who refuse to move out of AoEs.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

it is a strawman :)

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This isn't answering any of my questions and you're using the term strawman incorrectly. Strawman fallacy is when someone makes an argument but instead of attacking that argument itself, you instead attack another argument, which is similar but not what the other person actually said.

In this case I didn't attack any kind of argument made by you, I'm asking you to answer my question on why do you think these scenarios I presented are not identical? These are my arguments, therefore it's impossible for them to be strawman arguments as I'm the one who makes these points. I'm saying, by your logic this seems to be the case, do you not agree? If not, why?

You said healer who heals isn't being carried, I'm asking you what do you mean by this and why do you think your opinion here is the correct one? I'm asking for further explanations and you're unsurprisingly not answering my questions or in any way explaining your reasoning, instead dodging and saying things are like this because things are like this, and healer heals because it's called a healer.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

For those using strawman and saying "but ignoring kit"- not all jobs use 100% of their kit. I don't see healers cure spamming cure 1 and 2 for cure procs. I don't see sch spamming adlo for hq procs. you don't see mnks in fists of the earth once they unlock fist of fire and i don't see them using pulling for haymaker. I rarely/never see drks use their dot on mobs, i rarely if ever see wars use their dots. I don't see ninjas using all of their ninjustu. I rarely see AST stance dance inbetween fights, or use their barrier skill in fights outside of primal/raid boss ultimate attacks.

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WHMs uses Cure 1 all the time to proc freecures, otherwise they go out-of-MP very easily. Except in dungeons where mobs barely break through Regen.
SCHs spamming Adlo for a few tries to get a crit is very common. Especially for Deployment Tactics.
MNKs use their Fist of Earth in PvP and when they take heavy unavoidable damage. Haymaker is useful when attacking from the front, but usually only happens when solo or tanking an add.
DRKs definitely use their DoT on everything that lives for 30 seconds unless it's an AoE pull and Abyssal Drain is higher potency.
WARs most definitely use Fracture at least in Berserk rotation.
ASTs definitely use their Collective Unconscious even on regular dungeon pulls because the Regen is very potent. Stance dancing is useful in dungeons although not always possible due to CD timer.
NINs use all their Ninjutsu in PvE except for Hyoton, and it's still useful in PvP.

Just because you don't see people use something doesn't mean they shouldn't. Whether or not you should use something can determined by logic, math and risk evaluation. Many skills are situational, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be used in the right conditions. It's true that some abilities are almost useless, but healer DPS spells are not among them.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Your argument is even worse:"It's not bad tanking, just inferior CD usage!" - Tank that doesn't want to use CDs.
"It's not bad MNK DPS, just inferior positionals!" - MNK that doesn't want to use positionals.
"It's not bad DRG DPS, just inferior combos!" - DRG that doesn't want to use Blood of the Dragon.
"It's not bad SMN DPS, just inferior DoTs!" - SMN that doesn't want to use DoTs.
"It's not bad BLM DPS, just inferior use of fire magic!" - Ice mage.
"It's not bad support, just inferior TP/MP regeneration!" - BRD/MCH that doesn't use songs/turret.

But hey, it's all optional optimization, right?

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Like most "Pro Healer DPS mandatory or else you're garbage" arguments, it leads to poor comparisons that fail to be a proper equivalent to actual Healer DPS. Guess what? There isn't a equivalent to it that currently exists in this game, hence the drama regarding this, so you cannot compare it with any of the things you've mentioned because those comparisons are directly doing the main purpose (emphasis on main) of the job whereas healer's main purpose is to heal and buff.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Like most "Pro Healer DPS mandatory or else you're garbage" arguments, it leads to poor comparisons that fail to be a proper equivalent to actual Healer DPS. Guess what? There isn't a equivalent to it that currently exists in this game, hence the drama regarding this, so you cannot compare it with any of the things you've mentioned because those comparisons are directly doing the main purpose (emphasis on main) of the job whereas healer's main purpose is to heal and buff.

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How is the "main purpose" of a job defined? By their role name? If so, a BRD's role is defined as DPS in the game. Are they still expected to sing, because that's not DPS?

Your argument is not logical and you still haven't presented any actual arguments for why should healers be expected to only heal. Is there anything else to it apart from the role name or the assumed developers' intention, neither of which have anything to do with how the game actually works and thus should not have any standing in this discussion?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Which is simply not true in the reality. Even the best players in the whole world would not have been able to beat Alexander Savage raids when they've been released without healer DPS. And that's not because their DDs and tanks suck, it's because that's how the content was actually tuned.

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I just want to point out that this part of your argument is not correct (everything else I agree with). The fights are not tuned to be cleared that fast with such minimal gears. Sure, they expect the world-first people to do it that fast, but that's not how the fights are tuned. With the possible exception of some gordias floors, all savage contents can be cleared without any healer dps at the proper ilvl the floor is designed for, although of course with unnecessary difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

snip

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im talking about non raid dungeons.

The only thing on this forum I've seen is "healers must dps" nothing about dps

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

he also said multiple times that no content, including savage raids, is tuned to healers dpsing.

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This is when you have to realize he says things like this to give everyone a pat in the back, trying to be casual friendly and catering to every type of player. From a developer point of view, they simply cannot ignore a healer's potential damage input in an encounter, which is actually really strong. These "fights are not designed with healer dps" comments, even coming from Yoshi, are for the late stages of a patch when everyone is overgearing the content. The same way they cannot design fights with heavy damage or tank busters ignoring other jobs mitigating skills (Virus, Dragon Kick, etc).

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

im talking about non raid dungeons.

The only thing on this forum I've seen is "healers must dps" nothing about dps

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Because that's the only part you seem to want to read. People are expressing their frustratition with healers that instead of helping the party working with everyone else, do nothing based on nothing else than laziness. And the only reason healers are being discussed here is because of Yoshi's recent comment in PAX, which led to the creation of this thread point to, guess what? yes, healers. There have been similar threads and discussion for every role.

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Originally Posted by ananda

I just want to point out that this part of your argument is not correct (everything else I agree with). The fights are not tuned to be cleared that fast with such minimal gears. Sure, they expect the world-first people to do it that fast, but that's not how the fights are tuned. With the possible exception of some gordias floors, all savage contents can be cleared without any healer dps at the proper ilvl the floor is designed for, although of course with unnecessary difficulty.

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Alright, so the developers' design is that the floors are not tuned to be cleared when the content is released, which is why Yoshi can say they're not tuned to include healer DPS and not directly lie, that is true. But that's exactly why it's misleading to use the argument of "developers said you can clear this content without healer DPS", when in reality of the actual game it's first impossible and later unnecessarily difficult (and for most groups, still impossible), like you said.

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Your argument is not logical and you still haven't presented any actual arguments for why should healers be expected to only heal. Is there anything else to it apart from the role name or the assumed developers' intention, neither of which have anything to do with how the game actually works and thus should not have any standing in this discussion.

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Funny, because you are the one who is actually being illogical here. You are going directly against quotes in-game and by the lead of this game because of what you think and not what is.

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Originally Posted by Taika

How is the "main purpose" of a job defined? By their role name? If so, a BRD's role is defined as DPS in the game. Are they still expected to sing, because that's not DPS?

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How about some quotes in-game?

https://i.imgur.com/NawXEHz.png

Oh? What's that? "primary role" you say? I suppose it was that simple.

And I wonder what a Bard does? Hmm..surely a class labeled as "DPS" with a bow and it's core design aesthetic and name being based around music might just be relating to that?

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Originally Posted by Taika

How is the "main purpose" of a job defined? By their role name? If so, a BRD's role is defined as DPS in the game. Are they still expected to sing, because that's not DPS?

Your argument is not logical and you still haven't presented any actual arguments for why should healers be expected to only heal. Is there anything else to it apart from the role name or the assumed developers' intention, neither of which have anything to do with how the game actually works and thus should not have any standing in this discussion?

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i rarely seen bards sing more than foe req

Also, I've personally stated multiple times in savage raids, I get the "healers must dps" mindset. Not in non raid content.