Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s exactly why TBN is the good short CD and the others are bad

You have correctly identified you can’t just spam in the burst window and you need to maintain some mana for a later mechanic, maybe depending on the situation as you get more gear you may be able to shuffle around your mitigation plan to overcome this (big maybe I’m just kinda using it as an example) but it required skill oh your part to recognise how to best use your resources, it’s a consideration that is entirely lacking in the other tanks which makes them feel flat and boring

What’s the point playing a tank if there is nothing dynamic about your gameplay; at the point the other three are at you are basically playing a gimped melee DPS but all your long CD’s are defensives rather than big damage buttons

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For sure. The reason I still stick with DRK, despite it's rotation being nothing special, is that emphasis on proper defensive CDs. DRK is the only tank that actively encourages you to mitigate and use your defensive CDs, meanwhile the other tanks have so much sustain that they can do just fine by combining any defensive with their short CD with no risk at all. I used to be against TBN costing mana, but damn I think I would just lobotomize myself if they removed the cost. I do still want more mana spenders in our basic rotation though.

A little off topic, I really hate how they're trying to push for a more DPS focus for jobs but not giving us more to do during DPS. Every tank CD feels like a wasted skill slot for what could've been something fun to use. With all the tanks (most likely) getting their 30% mit upgraded in DT, they better all get unique effects and not just free healing. Hot take, I want them to bring back damage gains when main tanking.

DRK needs a skill where your character draws a big spooky-looking sword from their heart. I don't know what it would do, but it would look cool.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean TBN and edge are both oGCD’s, if you dump all your mana into edge and don’t have TBN that is literally just a flat skill issue, not TBN being underpowered. Drifting a single edge out of the primary burst window because TBN cracked a little late delaying the last edge is literally the single smallest loss of DPS I can functionally imagine that it’s such a non issue

You should be expected to properly meter your resources, not just have your burst cover your healing for you so you don’t have to think about resource arrangement

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Well I do but I'm looking at this from the perspective of what I expect, I have never once felt like feedback has been taken in this game other than very broad strokes, in which DRK sustain complaints has been here for years, and I fully beleive in SE's ability to over-correct the issue. Much like they did with tank damage right now.

Like yeah I'd love to play the game where they make healers not suck, but until yoship goes out on stage and says "we're gonna make healers not suck", I'm going to keep expecting them to suck.
Likewise I see no reason to expect the tank sustain creep to stop, as its not like the devs have even talked about this at all.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

No actually, I'd say theres a unique gap in DRK's sustain thats kinda nasty where during a burst window you're particularly vulnerable, and thats during a burst window where all your MP is being pumped into edges you end up in a situation where you have nothing for TBN and it can be a bit of a hassle in some fights if left unaccounted for.
A confiteor style heal during the burst would go a long way to remedy this. Not that I really expect it to actually heal, but the gap between the healing on DRK and the other tank is so vast that I don't think something like this would be out of place.


I also have no expectations that a tank sustain nerf is ever going to be on the cards unless they specifically change the direction of the game.

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I actually like that though, because it puts one job at a disadvantage in certain scenario's to make others shine.
...The problem though, is that only Dark knight is given downsides and unfavorable situations.
Because except for Gunbreaker during downtimes/ boss transitions specifically (and even then, their raw dps buffs have kinda offset the weakness) they immediately remove downsides from the others.
Look no further than the regens on Warrior to deal with the bleeds from Abyssos, designed to make another tank shine for a change, and we can't have that apparently.
The ONE situation where War wasn't the best solution to a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I actually like that though, because it puts one job at a disadvantage in certain scenario's to make others shine.
...The problem though, is that only Dark knight is given downsides and unfavorable situations.
Because except for Gunbreaker during downtimes/ boss transitions specifically (and even then, their raw dps buffs have kinda offset the weakness) they immediately remove downsides from the others.
Look no further than the regens on Warrior to deal with the bleeds from Abyssos, designed to make another tank shine for a change, and we can't have that apparently.
The ONE situation where War wasn't the best solution to a mechanic.

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Kinda?I would say Paladin has had its fair share of downsides, a lot of PLD's tools seem to have a higher degree of intentional downsides built into them. Clemency is a damage loss, Wings require precise positioning and is also a damage loss if you try to maximize them, I think its fine.

But in terms of downsides to differentiate tanks, I don't really find that all that engaging.
Like I'm not on the edge of my seat because Dark Mind or Dark Missionary can be removed from your hotbar in about 70% of content in this game, like wow my buttons just arbitrarily don't work now its so engaging, nor do I think the game's identity hinges on Dark Knight and Gunbreaker basically not having a raidwide mit in any content focused on physical damage. (Dungeons, Deep Dungeons, Criterion, ect.)

To me the advantages that make Dark Knight engaging to me is TBN being tied to a resource for Damage and it having almost half the cooldown of the lv 82 mits, it doesnt need to be as strong as those because you're using it twice as much. To me this makes the job way more engaging than the other 3 just trying to maximize it and keeping it all set up for a burst window. Theres a reasonable downside of having it tied to MP, and a reasonable upside of 15s CD compared to 25s. This pairs extraordinarly well with the 2 charge low CD on Oblation, and the low CD on Dark Mind, more like this please.

I don't like differentiating tanks just by putting blatant gaps in their kit and calling it a day. Thats why PLD was so trash for so long in this game due to its inability to take magic. Hell that was a problem through all of Abyssos because HS's increased block chance just didn't work on bleeds, I basically had to baby my OT PLD through it with Oblation to keep his job functional, I'm not crying that was fixed. Likewise, I've been playing DRK a lot in lv 70 ultimates and its not ENGAGING to me to just not have a raidwide mit at all, it feels bad and like the job I'm playing is a throw pick compared to other options for no reason other than arbitrarily not having a button for a situation.

I think the only reason it's frustrating is because there's no longer any plus sides to speak of.
We're not shining in any piece of content anymore, the only tank that still does is War because it has the best version of every tank cooldown, and Gnb if you REALLY care about that 100 extra dps.
But if we want to move away from homogenisation i think sometimes not having the best answer for a situation is a great way to go about it.
When i did Uwu i felt like i was throwing too, because i had no party mits or self healing, and also play the lowest damage tank in the fight. There was no upsides for my job.
That just felt bad.

I think you're kind of exaggerating about TBN, because the lower cooldown didn't ever really come into play for me outside of P10. I personally try to use it as little as possible, because people are unpredictable.
I've had other people mitigate or voke on auto's and then my TBN wouldn't break. I don't think it's a well designed ability tbh. Especially now that we're no longer allowed to do more dps than the others.
But even in P10, that advantage felt moot. Because i had no way of interacting with HH meaningfully outside of generic mits everyone else gets. And also missed out on party buffs because of all the group distance.
Missing out on party buffs felt really bad, because we already need the perfect burst windows to do the same damage as the others with an inferior toolkit.
I think you can make the case that it shouldn't have *no* interaction with some mechanics at all. (Magic mits against physical damage) But i never felt that any of my mits gave me an advantage over the other tanks outside of Abyssos before they buffed War and PLD. So i kinda just feel like i'm making everything more difficult for no reason for playing Drk now.

I don't agree, and I think you're generally too down on this job as a whole.

I remember plenty of spots where TBN's shorter CD helped my group get through Anabaseios, I remember all the bleeds in Abyssos basically making the skill free real estate to play DRK as the world's worst shield healer. There's even a good number of spots where I found it feeling good in Criterion/Criterion Savage. Its not free though, you have to be willing to experiment with them and its something I like to do to keep prog engaging, trying to find all the spots where TBN will work and how I can get it to take me as far as it does. But even beyond that, that cooldown shouldn't be discredited, P12SP2 has multiple spots where you can basically TBN on CD and guarantee breaks, which is fantastic during its more hectic mechanics where healers might not be looking, you can basically get two TBN breaks on both calorics from the autos.

TBN is not as strong as the lv 82s, TWO TBNs however is stronger than the lv 82s, and given their cooldown differences I think this is a fair thing to factor in, and thats not factoring in Oblation or Dark Mind's lower CDs. Being able to cycle these so frequently without touching the standard mits IS Dark Knights shining feature, mastering DRKs mits I find takes you way farther than the other tanks really can go, with the only one feeling similar now is post rework PLD.


Another notable upside of Dark Knight is Living Dead funny enough, this is the only invuln in the game that has the possibility to be a net-gain on resources on its own. Its been kinda rare to find spots where this matters, but it ended up making Dark Knight my tank of choice for Another Mount Rokkon Savage, being able to shrug off so much damage from the first add-pack, instantly heal up and play the rest of the dungeon with Dark Knight's superior and more available mitigations for the rest of the dungeons made that one surprisingly easy for me.

I'd also like to say that Dark Knight's Damage situation is not as bad as you're making it out. Dark Knight is still seeing a lot of play in high end content, and while its true other tanks will out damage dark knight when attacking striking dummies, so what? In practice Dark Knight is still the 2nd largest burst window in the game, and with a the way a lot of fights are phased, Dark Knight gets way more out of downtime mechs than the other tanks, and with this in mind dark knight still ends up being a great option for a lot of fights for speed kills and damage output. Given I also do not give a shit about this, I do not participate in it, and I never really will. I play this job because I like what it does and its fun to play, I'd play it if it was the worst or the best, I just don't really care about this sort of thing.

The areas where balance is fucked is honestly sub lv 90 content, which seems to always be deliberately ignored when it comes to balancing, and has always been extraordinarily shit when it comes to balancing. Level Sync is FFXIV's worst feature and I'll die on that hill.

Downsides are always relative. I'm not a fan of physical or magical only mitigation, but you have to look at the context in which these originated. Sheltron was released as a physical damage only cooldown in Heavensward. Raw Intuition, released at the same time, was physical damage only (and guaranteed critical hits when you were hit from the rear). Dark Dance was physical damage only as well. The reason why PLD was at a disadvantage in Heavensward was damage, not mitigation. In fact, there were several fights where PLD/DRK players tended to swap to PLD for progression at least, simply because PLD was a much safer option.

SE uses a firefighting approach to balance. There's no overarching vision about how roles should be balanced as a whole, because everything is reactive in response to player complaints. So when you complain about physical damage only cooldowns, Sheltron and Block now work against all damage types (+1 PLD), WAR gains Rampart (+1 WAR), and Dark Dance is changed to the role action Anticipation (-1 DRK). In the meanwhile, the one tank with magic damage only mitigation tools ends up with cooldowns that are worthless under various circumstances.

The same thing happened for knockback prevention in Heavensward. PLD had Tempered Will, WAR had Holmgang, DRK had Plunge. Knockbacks themselves were relatively infrequent, but people complained. WAR demanded a gap closer and knockback mitigation and received better versions of both. When Stormblood came around, the frequency of knockbacks in raid content jumped up dramatically as a result, but DRK didn't have the toolkit that the other two tanks had. There are plenty of other examples. Raidwide mitigation is another great one.

You have to commit to a design philosophy and apply it fairly across the entire role. Player demands will tend to push towards homogenization, simply because everyone wants what the competition is having. For supports, that results in mitigation inflation and more of your hotbar space gets dedicated to defensive actions. You can do one of two things in response. Either you acknowledge that all tanks will have their unique advantages (and relative disadvantages) and push further into those design differences, or you deliberately homogenize a gameplay aspect to remove any imbalances and ensure strict fairness. But you have to commit. The real problem is partial homogenization, where tanks are similar enough that you can identify a clear cut winner from the differences, but not similar enough to eliminate those imbalances. Vengeance is the classical example.

People also tend to forget that Holy Sheltron has 1/3 the recast of TBN, and functionally has the ability to store two charges. TBN is an interesting concept, but it seems like they don't really know what to do with the design.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I don't agree, and I think you're generally too down on this job as a whole.

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You're not really selling the job to me here.
I never even get the burst windows the job needs to do the same dps as the other tanks at the same skill level. So speed kills are completely out of the question.
TBN is unrewarding jank for the sake of being different. Getting 2 reliable TBN's also doesn't amount to as much as you think it does.
On the rare occasion where you can use 2 immediately back to back on cooldown, how much would it outweigh the additional fat healing and lingering mits the others get after?
If a TBN breaks, it's gone. It has no healing that comes after, and it doesn't have any lingering mitigations either.
TBN's current design is shit. And the shorter cooldown doesn't matter. The benefits (When things go right) are negligible.
I mostly play with random players and i can't predict whenever Jim wants to help with his mits during tankbusters because the youtubers told him to use Feint or Addle.
I've played with Machinists who double mitigated the knockback mechanic on P10, TWICE. And caused me to lose near 1000 potency of damage for no reason. Or when my co tank randomly vokes or mits.
It's easily the most frustrating ability in the entire game. I'm genuinely puzzled when you say it's rewarding at all, just because you can *sometimes* use it to cover 2 mechanics in a row.

If i was looking for a tank, Drk is the last one i'd want. And i think you'd agree. It needs the most attention and provides the least. None of what you were arguing for is anything i'd consider noteworthy in comparison to everything the other tanks can do.
I do think Drk has the second best invuln, but that's not necessarily because of the healing. Because none of the other tanks are set up to where they have to worry about their mitigation plans interfering with their damage windows to begin with.
The healing is a solution to the self inflicted problem of the job's design. That's not a selling point. And the other tanks get all that healing and more in the rest of their toolkit. The only thing that sometimes matters is the shorter cooldown.
Maybe it's different in current ultimates for TBN, i don't know. But that's a super narrow scope anyways.

DRK isn't as horrible as Goat claims, but DRK should def not be dealing the lowest dps. I do think it's stupid how reliant DRK is on raid buffs to even have a chance of out DPSing the other tanks. However, being able to solo tank busters in P7s and P10s without ever going below half HP felt damn good.

TBN is far from the most frustrating ability in the game imo. From my experience, TBNs utility is as good as its user. It's really good for mitigating auto-attacks which can be quite damaging without BiS, and is always up for a TB; compare that to the 25 CDs and I usually catch them on CD for TBs when I'm actively using them to mitigate. TBN still sucks in content that isn't raiding though and could def use some improvements there.