What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Myths of the Realm isn't over-explaining. The problem is that it's just a hair away from outright contradicting and/or retconning a boatload of established lore and themes. Practically the whole point of Endwalker (YMMV as to execution) was to demonstrate that hope and purpose can be found even in a disillusioned, post-religious world.

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The problem I almost have with these anime-esque stories about "hope" and "purpose" is that they almost always rely on platitudes like "bonds" and "friendship" and "light" (aka "positive thinking").

Don't get me wrong, all of those things can be wonderful things to fall back on in dark moments, but they are...just as often...causes of despair in their own right. "Believe in your friends" is not a helpful message for someone who, for example, feels suicidally alone. "Just think positive" is likewise empty for someone suffering from clinical depression. It effectively replaces "post-religion" with a different type of blind faith.

That's another thing that irks me about Endwalker's story. I don't want to take anything away from all the people on YouTube, Reddit and Twitter claiming that Endwalker was just what they needed to deal with terrible things in their lives. If it helped those people, then good for them. But being someone who actually works in a field that deals with victims of abuse and hate who are often a single step from taking their lives, Endwalker's form of copium is aggravatingly oversimplistic to me.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Is it post religious if the majority of a world's inhabitants are religious?

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I think they mean the story themes as a whole. The world of FFXIV may be religious, but the story is not. No gods, thus far, are actually real.

FFXIV's take on religion seems to heavily comply to modern Japanese standards.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

The problem I almost have with these anime-esque stories about "hope" and "purpose" is that they almost always rely on platitudes like "bonds" and "friendship" and "light" (aka "positive thinking").

Don't get me wrong, all of those things can be wonderful things to fall back on in dark moments, but they are...just as often...causes of despair in their own right. "Believe in your friends" is not a helpful message for someone who, for example, feels suicidally alone. "Just think positive" is likewise empty for someone suffering from clinical depression. It effectively replaces "post-religion" with a different type of blind faith.

That's another thing that irks me about Endwalker's story. I don't want to take anything away from all the people on YouTube, Reddit and Twitter claiming that Endwalker was just what they needed to deal with terrible things in their lives. If it helped those people, then good for them. But being someone who actually works in a field that deals with victims of abuse and hate who are often a single step from taking their lives, Endwalker's form of copium is aggravatingly oversimplistic to me.

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A lot of it just reminds me of very shallow self-help stuff.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I think they mean the story themes as a whole. The world of FFXIV may be religious, but the story is not. No gods, thus far, are actually real.

FFXIV's take on religion seems to heavily comply to modern Japanese standards.

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Eh, I'd say they don't take a strong stance either way. You have the life stream, aether, and dynamis which is all straight up magic and for most of the game's run the bad guys were state enforced atheist. Then again, I don't think XIV is some profound work or anything like that. It's just a story meant for entertainment and nothing more really.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I'm still confused by the idea that the Garleans were ever anything more than "generic evil empire". That's pretty much been their entire schtick since day one.

It's cool if that's what some players like, but Garlemald was trying to do the same thing in Stormblood that they were doing in 1.0: build big machines and use them to conquer the world.

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They were definitely presented to us as such at first because it fit the narrative of "we good, Garlemald bad!".
I would've preferred if more lore surrounding Garlemald had been presented to us via ingame resources sooner though.

I personally liked the lore surrounding Garlemald and the nuances of its inhabitants. It was race almost pushed to extinction by being biologically inferior to the other Eorzean races as they alone were unable to manipulate Aether - something the whole planet is overflowing with. That's a pretty insane weakness if you think about it and makes a lot of their way of thinking and acting completely understandable. The biggest source of power, readily available everywhere, was out of their reach and everyone and their aether-manipulating cats walked all over them.
They found a means to survive in a harsh, cold part of the land through technological means and discipline. The strict order and discipline wasn't all the Ascians' doing, it was necessary for survival.
And then you got more and more glimpses of the internal differences like Gaius not agreeing with Project Metetor or Black Rose or Regula not agreeing with trapping primals and thought it a too unstable and unpredictable means especially after the disaster with Bahamuth and fighting honorably or Maxima being a diplomatic person that tries to think of the civilians and wants to minimize any form of unnecessary destruction to both sides of the war. On other side of the scale you have characters like Asahi who sold out his own sister.
Then there were the conscripts that found a new purpose in Garlemald's legions and those who were only biding their time until they saw a chance to desert. If they had introduced more characters like Regula, Maxima or the Gaius we later come to know a bit sooner I think many would think different about Garlemald - because the nuance was there the whole time, they just purposely didn't tell a lot of it until last second and via side quests because it wouldn't fit the "Empire evil hehe" narrative.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

That's another thing that irks me about Endwalker's story. I don't want to take anything away from all the people on YouTube, Reddit and Twitter claiming that Endwalker was just what they needed to deal with terrible things in their lives. If it helped those people, then good for them. But being someone who actually works in a field that deals with victims of abuse and hate who are often a single step from taking their lives, Endwalker's form of copium is aggravatingly oversimplistic to me.

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This. As someone with major depression, EW just felt full of platitudes to me. Reminded me a lot of the unhelpful advice I've gotten over the years like "think positive" and "practice gratitude".

There was a thread on Reddit a couple months ago where some people with depression spoke out about how they felt the themes of EW were problematic, particularly that anyone with mental illness would've been turned into a blasphemy so only the healthy and strong of mind would've survived. I realize that wasn't the writers' intention, but like most of EW it's just another thing they didn't think about as much as they should have.

Quoting one of the posters:

"I firmly believe that the story was written by people with very little experience of depression/mental illness as a whole. Thematically the expansion was incredibly shallow.

The story the writers tried to convey was executed in an incredibly heavy-handed, patronizing way. 'Just have hope and don't give into despair, silly.'"

If you post a link to that reddit, I would appreciate it.

Otherwise, I'll try to find it when I find time.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

If you post a link to that reddit, I would appreciate it.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...gree_with_the/

People in that same thread and elsewhere keep latching onto the assumption that the Ancients would've kept sacrificing more lives after the third instance when there was no implication of that being the case.

All those who gave their lives to summon Zodiark were trapped within him and unable to return to the star, which would've been extremely distressing for a people who anticipate the moment where one feels they've fulfilled their purpose and return to the star of their own volition, so them fervently desiring to free them from that state hardly came across as unreasonable to me.

Now, if they took it further and had explicitly been intending to use Zodiark as a quick fix to all of their problems, including bringing back those who had lost their lives to the Final Days because of the beasts or disasters, then it would've seemed more objectionable.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

All those who gave their lives to summon Zodiark were trapped within him and unable to return to the star, which would've been extremely distressing for a people who anticipate the moment where one feels they've fulfilled their purpose and return to the star of their own volition, so them fervently desiring to free them from that state hardly came across as unreasonable to me.

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As of 6.1, this becomes even more frustrating given that Vrtra's sister is trapped in the Thirteenth. It's pushed as something heroic and justified to try and rescue her - and there's a good chance it'll succeed - but the method to do so involves opening a portal to what is very much a demon infested hellhole.

We also know that Zodiark was deliberately keeping the souls within his being safe and protected. Whereas Hydaelyn thought nothing of burning through those that had aided in her creation.

The other thing to consider is what the Ancients who gave themselves to Zodiark would have thought of Venat's plan for Etheirys. It's not unreasonable to suggest that many of them probably sacrificed themselves to preserve Etheirys but also to help their surviving loved ones get a measure of peace and happiness. What would they have to say about Venat then murdering everyone who had survived the Final Days?

All of this is the sort of thing that Endwalker should have been exploring instead of that utterly ridiculous caricature cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

This. As someone with major depression, EW just felt full of platitudes to me. Reminded me a lot of the unhelpful advice I've gotten over the years like "think positive" and "practice gratitude".

There was a thread on Reddit a couple months ago where some people with depression spoke out about how they felt the themes of EW were problematic, particularly that anyone with mental illness would've been turned into a blasphemy so only the healthy and strong of mind would've survived. I realize that wasn't the writers' intention, but like most of EW it's just another thing they didn't think about as much as they should have.

Quoting one of the posters:

"I firmly believe that the story was written by people with very little experience of depression/mental illness as a whole. Thematically the expansion was incredibly shallow.

The story the writers tried to convey was executed in an incredibly heavy-handed, patronizing way. 'Just have hope and don't give into despair, silly.'"

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Though there are moments with what i call a 'casual/real' despair/negativity. Like When Thandred did the whole spiel when there are days when you just want to burn the world and hold back the bile. That scene really resonated with me as someone who has been through a lot and suffers from mental issues as well.

Though the hope part i get you on being platitudes, but it really does feel like there were two differing perspectives on this at times like the above mentioned Thancred moment, or say the despair in Garlemald of two people dying in the snow, or the suicide moment.