How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

It is same as the WoW Addon, even though they don't support it, they also don't restrict it, therefore it is more accepted to drop "under performing" players and benching others.

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If a player has shown consistently that they're under-performing over and over again, literally holding back the group from a clear or from finishing whatever piece of content that they're working on, and they also refuse or just completely ignore on improving and good advice; I'm not entirely sure how that's considered toxic to simply bench them.

It's rude to expect other players to hold your hand, carry, or coddle you when their own time is just as important as your own. I'm not sure why others expect everyone else to put in double the effort when they can't even put 25% in sometimes.

You bench football or sports players that are not performing to the team's and coach's standards (players who make a lot of fouls or mistakes), I'm not sure why we can't hold those same standards and expectations in an MMO which is not only a competitive game, but also a team effort.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Well the "silently" excluding people cannot be reported. You can argue that people are doing it already but it is still true that having an official parser will "promote" more people to use it leading this scenario to occur more often.

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"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." You can't just say "but it is still true that..." and expect that to suddenly become the truth.

I don't believe an official parser would lead to your proposed scenario at all. All the tools exist to do what you're afraid of today, and everybody who cares to use them that way already use them that way, because, as you said, it cannot be reported. So nothing would change on that front.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

It is same as the WoW Addon, even though they don't support it, they also don't restrict it, therefore it is more accepted to drop "under performing" players and benching others.

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Players are usually dropped in savage content where they are expected to perform. If you want to learn the raid, then you should be joining practice parties instead of holding everyone else back. There's also a good bunch that don't even know how to play their class and end up getting carried by the rest of their team. Instead of getting carried, they should be held back until they know what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

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Now tell me, how will a parser keep track of players doing the mechanics properly?
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The parser I've heard about absolutely can already do exactly this.


It can tell you who got hit by what, who died, etc...
As long as you care to look into the data it parsed.

I don't know how to quote multiple comments so please forgive me for the lack of context.

I think there are too many scenarios and variables on this issue for my single line comment to be correct, so here are some of the things I have in mind about this in general:

When I said "under performing" in quotes I meant it in a relative sense, I was mainly alluring to the players that have enough numbers for the content but are not as high as other, better performing players.
I didn't mention savage content, but obviously the amount of skill gating on content by players depends on the difficulty of the content.

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - True enough, even though it makes for a bad argument because if everything required evidence then I would required evidence that your quote holds truth at all times. I believe that it was obvious that the more people that parse or have parser, the more likely that this scenario will occur, I don't believe this is a far-fetched hypothesis. The assumption that everyone that wants to/will use parser is already using them, then there is no point to add an official parser because all the people that wishes to use parsers are already using it.

Players are not usually dropped in savage content, at least not in Typhon. I don't have a static so I only ever do Savage/Ex with pugs and usually parties just disband instead of players being dropped because of the Japanese culture there and there isn't a good way to shift blame to a particular player to drop. Ofcourse if you are in a static then its fine and if you are using the parser to look for potential recruits I'm all for it, however there are no limitations on the usage of parser and it can be exploited, especially along with fflogs to hurt the more casual player base, even outside of savage/ex content.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - True enough, even though it makes for a bad argument because if everything required evidence then I would required evidence that your quote holds truth at all times. I believe that it was obvious that the more people that parse or have parser, the more likely that this scenario will occur, I don't believe this is a far-fetched hypothesis. The assumption that everyone that wants to/will use parser is already using them, then there is no point to add an official parser because all the people that wishes to use parsers are already using it.

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We're not talking parsers when we're talking about excluding players from quiet dismissals from Extremes or Savage. We're talking logs, and that's something every player has access to--something that everybody who's going to dismiss based on past recorded performance has access to. An official parser will not change people's access to the FFLogs.

I've read that some people used to use Dummies to calculate dps, not sure how it worked but maybe that can be used.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

We're not talking parsers when we're talking about excluding players from quiet dismissals from Extremes or Savage. We're talking logs, and that's something every player has access to--something that everybody who's going to dismiss based on past recorded performance has access to. An official parser will not change people's access to the FFLogs.

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Yes, but not everyone is on FFlogs, the more people that parse, the more people will unwillingly be put on FFlogs.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

I've read that some people used to use Dummies to calculate dps, not sure how it worked but maybe that can be used.

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Dummies are great to practice your rotations on, sure, but not to calculate your DPS because dummies have much more health on them in order to make up for the fact that you're not dodging mechanics.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Players are not usually dropped in savage content, at least not in Typhon. I don't have a static so I only ever do Savage/Ex with pugs and usually parties just disband instead of players being dropped because of the Japanese culture there and there isn't a good way to shift blame to a particular player to drop. Ofcourse if you are in a static then its fine and if you are using the parser to look for potential recruits I'm all for it, however there are no limitations on the usage of parser and it can be exploited, especially along with fflogs to hurt the more casual player base, even outside of savage/ex content.

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In NA, players are dropped when they're the ones holding back the party. Parties will disband when multiple people are failing especially when its a farm party. And there's always a reason why the party keeps failing, with it usually being players not knowing the mechanics, not knowing how to play their class, or their lack of coordination. The only thing an official parse will do, is atleast help those who have no idea what they're doing and point out what they're doing wrong instead of being carried along from the start. The worst being gating those kinds of people from parties that they have no place in at all.