Sigh. It's painful, it really is. I say the same things over and over again that people apparently haven't even bothered reading. I addressed like literally everything in this post already; the fact that you can't understand it is staggering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach
The caster role is off-balance. Two out of three of the jobs have access to Raise, an extremely useful progression tool. One of them does not. Which do you think will be shunned? Lore is important and lore can be reinvented, not sure where you get the idea that things haven't changed since FFIII, there have been tons of additions and changes and re-imaginings since then. This franchise is the literal definition of recycling/reimagining concepts and ideas.
Please, tell me some more that I "don't understand" the class. I understand perfectly well that no matter how much damage it does (within reasonable balance), the other two jobs will still be significantly stronger for progression. Call it "a crutch" all you want, I don't even care anymore, it's a crutch that every party benefits significantly from, which translates directly into shunning BLM. In case you missed the memo, they stopped "intense damage checks" after Gordias, save for ultimate, and exactly TWO BLMs have cleared unending coil.
If you don't raid at progression levels, then this issue basically doesn't even concern you, to be blunt. You're not the one who will be forced to play another job because of the imbalance of the role.
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12-22-2017, 01:03 PMLlugen
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12-22-2017, 02:31 PMFannah
(I maybe read like the 10 1rst pages when the post was created, but sorry I didn't read it all)
I guess the problem with giving BLM Raise is mainly that it costs nothing to them other than dps, as they are the unlimited mana mage (others can technically never run out of mana if managed properly, but the BLM really has infinite mana pool).
Then we would have the "instant raise" from RDM, the "no mana problem to raise" from the BLM. I guess people would then complain about the raise skill of SMN.
Knowing healers have way more mana problems than the casters already, I guess the main raising role would go to dd casters then. Maybe it's already the case and that's the problem for BLM to don't have one?
Edit : When I think about it, there was a powerfull (and beautiful) magic called Meltdown in FF8 and reducing enemy def to 0. So in a way, they could make the BLM have a skill of this kind to upgrade dmg from all allies (and Meltdown is the kind of animation the current BLM could have).
It also could be made in the form of a Curse, they are Black Mage after all.
So RDM would be the safest (and weakest), then SMN, and BLM would be the risk for reward (no raise, more dmg whatever the form of it, from himself or from allies). -
12-22-2017, 07:24 PMRemedi
BLM have infinite resources for their dps rotation, they do not have infinite mana, the difference is that if you are in astral you don't want to spend MP on anything other than fire spells, that means your only opportunity window is during umbral ice.
What ppl fear of giving a normal raise is the implications of swiftcast and triplecast, which I found absurd when you have RDM already, not to mention the heavy personal cost for the BLM that has to sacrifice most of their movement tools for it .
In short you have a specific opportunity window and an hefty personal requirement, which frankly is not as broken as it seems at least on my perspective considering what the other jobs can current achieve
Edit: Be warned I do not advocate for it, quite the opposite actually -
12-22-2017, 08:42 PMLina_SlayerWhat I meant was that no matter if we can res with a huge cd we are not going to be chosen over RDM for early progression, the best in the world used RDM a lot to progress in the fight and mentioned how important the class was for them, but when they needed damage they got ditched in favor of the physical ranged meta, so as long as we can surpass MCH and SMN total damage (and we should because their mobility and defensive utility is way better than ours) we will be chosen when the group is close to the clear and we also may be chosen alongside RDM during early progression because damage is always going to be important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
99% of the prog groups had a dps who could res it is true but also they had three dps that can't, we can take the spot of those that can't. -
12-22-2017, 09:08 PMEllieShadeflareThe caster role is off balance not because of the lack of Raise on Black Mage, it's because of the status of Red Mage and Black Mage in terms of balance. Black Mage is a pure DPS class that can't DPS with its current meta and Red Mage is a low-effort, low-potential DPS with terrible support (beyond the questionable usage of rez-battery which becomes useless after learning). As for the claim of "things having not changed since FFIII", well... they really haven't. Part of the magic of Final Fantasy is that even things are different, they remain quite similar, with each class keeping its roles and mechanics throughout the series. It's why Red Mage has the lore of being both Black and White Magic and has a Cure and Rez on top of its DPS mechanics. It's why people wild-mass guess that Astrologian is Time Mage but renamed, since there's a few call signs of the class (most notably, Gravity and the seemingly time and space based mechanics of the job on top of it having more support than its other counterparts). It's why Black Mage, no matter how many times they've been reworked, have ended up just focussing on explosions, infernos, blizzards and very frightening thunderbolts and lightning. Reimagining does happen, but for specific "core" classes, it's not a good idea to reinvent the wheel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
Well, it sounds like you don't, because you don't seem to understand the real issues with Black Mage. Black Mage doesn't need, as you have called it, a crutch. What they need is work on the class to actually make its damage viable but the thing that makes this class viability come into check is A. the flat out nerf since 3.55 (Seriously, the loss of Raging Strikes and the 20 potency of Fire IV really hurt HARD (especially when you understand how Astral Fire adds damage, this is actually almost a 40 potency difference)) and B. its mechanics get in the way of its damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
Enochian has always been a clunky mechanic for BLM to manage, but to make it fair for the Dev team, they fixed half of the problem by making it only part of the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice mechanic in terms of duration. The problem now, is Fire IV being as slow as it is AND not counting to Astral Fire. I cannot in good faith accept Fire IV having such a stingy cast time, whether it be in 3.x or in 4.x since it directly hampers the ability to maintain Enochian. Back in 3.x, the clunkiness had to do with the stringent timers that could never be fully refreshed, the duration constantly degenerating with each cast of Blizzard IV. Thankfully, that's gone but in its place, we now have Foul, which is essentially the same problem as old Enochian. Fire IV's slow cast time already was a poor fit for the class in 3.x, but at least it didn't end without having Astral Fire or Umbral Ice up. Here? There's a very real chance that your attempt to keep your damage will actually make you lose both Enochian AND Foul, and it's ESPECIALLY painful when losing it in your opener, since it's still on cooldown. This became my biggest issue with Black Mage in Savage, since OS3 does a very darn good job showcasing that the ARR rotation is a player's best bet at maintaining Enochian and keeping damage decent in a mobility heavy situation because of just how clunky Fire IV is in our rotation. Heck, you'll even be better at maintaining Thundercloud and Firestarter, so it's almost like Fire IV is a waste of space if you have to move heavily, and this may require more experimentation.
But in the end, the clunkiness and the immobility of Black Mage is what kills it. You need to dedicate some resources to make Black Mage viable; shields to bypass damage, causing inflexibility in terms of mechanics due to immobility, and trying to work around their tunnel vision. A Samurai is good at being pure damage because they don't get forced into tunnel vision just to keep their damage. A Black Mage cannot handle mechanics, especially random ones due to its inability to move without sacrificing around 150 potency per cast just to maintain their class mechanics, assuming no Firestarter. This is what causes Black Mages so much ire, and this is what damned Black Mage for Ultimate. In fact! I challenge you! Find how many RED MAGES completed Ultimate. You'll find Hydaelyn knows how many Summoners, yes, but the reason why THEY'RE there is because their damage is far higher than Black Mage's, to the point that they beat out Samurai in parses. In fact, the one Black Mage clear recorded on FFlogs ranks far higher, completion time wise, than any Red Mage on that list, with the static Pandoras Box ranking 11, with the highest rank Red Mage being Unreal at rank 23. Links below for citations. The only reason TO take Red Mage would be for pure progression, since Bahamut is indeed going to be DPS oriented.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17# for proof of how well Summoners parse (and why they'd outmatch Black Mage for using in raids at the moment).
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/19#boss=1039 for Bahamut clears and the ranks that I've stated.
Oh and by the way, fun fact: OS3 does have at least 4 DPS checks, each in the form of adds: White Flame, Great Dragon, Apanda and Iron Giant + Ninjas. Not killing any of them in time essentially count as soft enrages, which more than counts as a DPS check.
Hi! Black Mage in learning/progression party. Our trouble isn't that we need rezes, our trouble is simply us learning. What WOULD make a Black Mage unwanted is if they're unskilled because a large chunk of mechanics in the raids will mess up an inexperienced player, much less a tunnel visioned Black Mage that hasn't put things into muscle memory. Deltascape 3.0 Savage will ESPECIALLY mess up a new Black Mage due to the mechanics being RANDOM, particularly Library Spellblade Holy, Place Dark Token, Mindjack, and worse. Obviously, a rez battery will HELP, but while a Black Mage might not be able to stop DPS checks, they can certainly end a boss quickly... if they worked as intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
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12-23-2017, 12:07 AMLlugen
Citing the adds as a "damage check" in v3s is rather weak, they most certainly get LBed especially early on lol. This might be a reason to bring a caster but not necessarily the strongest and lowest utility one.
By intense damage checks, I basically am referring to pepsiman, where even with the strongest of groups, one death/atrophy pretty much meant you couldn't hit the enrage.
If you look at the comparison between the ~15 RDMs that have cleared unending and the TWO BLMs, they are neck and neck in damage comparability.
And, to say one more time, BLM not having raise is certainly not the only problem with the class, it is just one of many balance considerations. Certainly the job also needs damage and mobility, and possibly utility. Please refer to the other 2-4 threads involving other changes/suggestions for BLM, this one is about raise and its relation to the caster role in particular.
Example of where the functions of magic have changed in FF: In FFX, every character could unlock the entire sphere grid, meaning that Lulu could unlock the white magic and Yuna could unlock the black magic. Look at that, a "black mage" with support. This is one single example. -
12-23-2017, 12:27 AMEllieShadeflareIf you LB White Flame and/or Great Dragon, you're gonna have a bad time when you get to Apanda, where the LB on Apanda is near vital or else he soft enrages on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
If a literal "kill this fast or you die" situation isn't a damage check, then I don't know what is.
This has still has less to do with Red Mage's strength as a damage class, and more of Black Mage's weakness as a DPS during heavy movement. In fact, Red Mage in general is the literal lowest DPS when it comes to its stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
Black Mage doesn't need a raise. The idea that Black Mage needs a raise is a red herring, and derails the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
Just because other classes in a role can do something, doesn't mean all should. Just because White Mage is a healer, doesn't mean it needs a heal that doubles as a shield. Just because Dark Knight and Paladin both use MP doesn't mean Warrior should. Just because every class has support doesn't mean Samurai needs any. Just because Bard has songs doesn't mean Machinist need the exact same kinds of buff abilities. And in this case, just because BLM is a caster, it doesn't need a Raise.
Lulu is an exception, not the rule. And even then, Lulu needs to grab skills from Yuna in order to do so. Hell, it's the shakiest example you could have used since it's still not HER Black Magic. It's a Black Mage using a support ability from another class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
Oops. -
12-23-2017, 02:00 AMKabooaYou don't tank the white flame next to Hali so the cleave from Black Mage doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare
You get at most two fouls worth of damage from cleaves each on Apanda and Dragon.
The LB3 wipes out almost all of the Ninja and a good chunk of Giant health, which any caster / ranged is capable of doing.
In no way does Black mage make this encounter 'easier' by any notable stretch of the imagination. The only reason Black Mage ranks as high as it does on FFLogs is because you scumbag AoE the ninjas if another caster or ranged is in the party. -
12-23-2017, 02:50 AMCeallachI read what you said. The problem is you simultaneously do not understand this series, this job, or this game, and you are blind to this fact. Black mage already struggles what it's designed to do, which is be a spell-slinging turret that does insane amounts of damage without moving all that much. Giving them a Raise variant would be a slap in the face, because then they'd be expected to use that on top of having an already-tight DPS rotation. You know what this would do? Further imbalance the black mage compared to the summoner and red mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
You're asking a DPS job that fails at DPS to do less DPS. Stop that.
And then there are the lore reasons. There has been a necromancer job exactly two times in the entire FINAL FANTASY series. The first was in FINAL FANTASY V for the Game Boy Advance, Steam and mobile devices, and even then this job didn't have a Raise variant. It was much closer to being a summoner variant with attack spells. The other example is in FINAL FANTASY Airborne Brigade. However, if you look at every black mage throughout the entire series, there has never been even one with his/her/its own support spells. Lulu, for example, had to go into Yuna's part of the Sphere Grid to get any white magic, and even Yuna didn't get all the white magic in the game without invading Tidus's area. On the other hand, red mages have always been capable of both healing and offensive magic, and summoners have usually had support summons. In fact, other than Rydia, all famous summoners throughout the FINAL FANTASY games have also been white mages.
You don't know what a black mage is if you are in favor of a black mage getting its own Raise variant. Stop that.
EllieShadeflare basically just destroyed every other point you had, so I won't bother. I'll just say that if you're that desperate for a crutch, maybe FINAL FANTASY XIV is not the game for you. I hear World of Warcraft is desperate for players who want to min/max literally everything in the entire game.
You don't use black mage's area attack rotation when there are only two targets, either, so there goes that point. Also, black mage can limit break under Enochian without that much of an issue, but good luck getting a summoner to limit break under Dreadwyrm Trance. Therefore, a black mage's limit break is stronger than a summoner's most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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12-23-2017, 03:10 AMKabooaYou'd have the ranged DPS limitbreak in that scenario anyways. And if it's between the Summoner and the Black Mage, you're still going to have the summoner do it, because any caster based AoE damage during the ninja phase is fluff damage, and the black mage will kill the Giant more expediently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach