Would you like an in-game parser?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Good points! Content should have a gradual difficulty increase that would help people improve while they advance in the game. I also think that requiring beating a SSS dummy to be able to access content might be a good first step in making people aware of their current skill level in a kind and non-public way.

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I agree with this, but what do healers and tanks do? There's no SSS for them.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Party composition has a very significant impact on your own dps. So if you want accuracy you need all the parties information not just a fraction of it

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Precisely why I feel that if we are to get an in-game parser, it should be based around Potency per Second rather than DPS. It's gear agnostic and your party comp doesn't have such a significant impact on your performance that way.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I agree with this, but what do healers and tanks do? There's no SSS for them.

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There's no SSS doll for healing or tanking (enmity management and damage mitigation), but there is DPS SSS for healers and tanks, and since DPS is vital part of playing both roles in raiding, I think it's good enough.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Precisely why I feel that if we are to get an in-game parser, it should be based around Potency per Second rather than DPS. It's gear agnostic and your party comp doesn't have such a significant impact on your performance that way.

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I think this is likely the fairest compromise that anyone has come up with thus far. While I would personally prefer essentially ACT in-game this would be such a huge step forward for PS4 players I think we could make it work.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

then that game already exists, it's called WoW.

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You do realise WoW can not be played on PS4? And if I have to get a PC to play a game with a parser I can also get FFXIV and ACT... so I'm sorry, but this is the most useless argument in this whole debate. ^^'

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

yslexia is a ####. :)

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I have dyslexia too. Yeah most of us and id say 99% people don't care about dungeon dps at least if they are okay. I've seen blms spam scatter or fire 3 and bliz 3 right after, this is something i don't find acceptable at all tbh. But about raids and savage and even trials, I do expect, like yourself that people play great.
But lets say I run a dungeon and I'm about 100-200 dps behind a smn/rdm or a blm, even a samurai. As SCH or even astro, are they also considered bad? I mean the real reason I ask is because plenty of people here dodge that question, because if they do know a healer did out dps them, they tend to ignore they fact they arent as good they think they are. And I also happen to out dps people as whm and sch in dungeon bosses too. I need an explantion there if they are bad or good.

to simply answer the question - yes - I would like an in game parser.

What comes up at the end of PVP would be a good start. (THUS it already exists - at some level)

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Originally Posted by NosamKin

to simply answer the question - yes - I would like an in game parser.

What comes up at the end of PVP would be a good start. (THUS it already exists - at some level)

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Shhh, they'll take that away if you're too loud about it.

Realistically the dev team should have some kind of damage meter tool at their disposal for balance testing purposes. The PvP report is just a after action numbers server report. No real useful information is in it aside from epeen data.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

1: That kind of question is a loaded gun to me. White Mage's are notoriously strong dps for what they do - and tend to out DPS most classes in several situations. However, compared to say a Black Mage? Not so great, Black Mages don't have to worry about running out of mana provided to flip umbral every so often. White Mages have to rely on Lucid Dream/Thin Air which cool down every 120s or so which can be tricky as your rolling dice that you wont need that when you burn them. Etc..etc...

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While a WHM will surpass a DPS in terms of numbers in AOE situations because Holy spam is OP (barring a few jobs like SMN that are ridiculously OP now), if a WHM is outDPSing a DPS job in a single-target situation, there is a huge problem there. If you, as a WHM, were outDPSing a SMN on a boss, there is a problem. So what would you say in a situation like that? I think that’s what akaneakki was referring to.

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In short - so long as DPS is doing the best they can (and I'm not expecting perfection) - even at mediocre damage - I'm OK.

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And that’s fine, in dungeons. No one expects 95% performance in dungeons, or even 24-mans or 8-man story mode raids/trials.

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Now in an ultimate/savage situation? Id expect them to be on their A Game.

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Include Extreme here as well. Because if a person isn’t on top of it, it’s very possible to hit enrage and not even clear a fight.

Take a group I joined in on yesterday for Shinryu (fairly certain that it was a “farm” party). There was an extremely vocal MCH that kept calling out every mistake this MNK made; every death they had (which was the fault of the healers, not the MNK—because they kept dying to the Sludge DoT from Earth Breath), yet this MCH could barely break 3k DPS in 330-340 gear. The MNK was in full 320 gear and was keeping up with myself and a friend (BRD/DRG respectfully) when we are i340–we were pulling about 5k a piece, with the MNK pulling over 4k, around 4.2k consistently...very good for their gear and ilvl. They died twice in one pull and still outDPS’d the vocal MCH.

The damage was so low from that MCH, both tanks (barely breaking 1,500 DPS outside of tank stance), and healers (0 DPS from both) that we were seeing the second Tidal Wave in the first phase. There’s a HUGE problem there, and it was one of those instances where I really wish I could have said something. Because that MCH was complaining so much at the MNK, I wanted to tell him “Perhaps you should stop complaining and focus more on your own damage because you are barely doing over 3k with ZERO deaths; no wonder we keep seeing the second Tidal Wave”.

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2: On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being best) - Id say I'm a 7...sometimes an 8. I consider myself a competent White Mage..maybe good enough to consider serious things like savage/ultimate...but I would also say there's always room for improvement... and I don't think a parser will tell me jack...because a lot of my problem is timing and coordination. Dyslexia is a ####. :)

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Parsers used in conjunction with FFLogs would be a very good tool for self-improvement if you used them. Analyzing the uploaded logs of other WHMs on the site, and seeing when they use which CDs, how they time their heals, etc., would also help—such information can only be obtained with parser data. Don’t dismiss a parser and think that it wouldn’t show you ways to improve when you’ve never even used one. It’s like when people say they don’t like certain foods, but have never tried them.

I’m curious as to how dyslexia contributes to poor timing and coordination. As far as I’m aware, that’s something that only affects one’s reading skills because it jumbles up the letters sometimes, or some letters look like other letters. Are you meaning that, because you sometimes can’t properly read the casts/cast bars (the letters get jumbled up sometimes), you may be late on timing a heal? Feel free to tell me because I honestly don’t know how dyslexia affects coordination and timing. That being said, however, one shouldn’t use disabilities as an excuse to not improve.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

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No offense taken. What I was trying to say is that thanks to parsing we have then YouTube videos teaching you rotations and Maximizing damage. So , without a parser we wouldn't have any of those videos online.

Thanks to parsing we can improve our rotations and damage we inflict on mobs.

Basically we DO need a PERSONAL parser for us to improve and get better. Because PC user are having the upper hand by finding out things that PS4 users can't (bard IJ snapshot for example)

A personal in game parser is needed to improve

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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You know whats funny?
https://i.imgur.com/1KeYlyL.jpg This guy here has outperformed a lot of players with 340 ilvl, look at his gear.. He did 2.7k dps there and he also mitigated well plus he wasnt in tank stance like... 98% of the time..It's a shame really that this player could do that with that crappy gear. On top doing better mitigation and taking a lot less damage than most tanks I've seen in savage. I need someone here whos an anti parser person and pro tank stance players to explain how he took less damage on busters etc and how he did better dps with a shitty weapon like that as well.

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Originally Posted by Mature

No offense taken. What I was trying to say is that thanks to parsing we have then YouTube videos teaching you rotations and Maximizing damage. So , without a parser we wouldn't have any of those videos online.

Thanks to parsing we can improve our rotations and damage we inflict on mobs.

Basically we DO need a PERSONAL parser for us to improve and get better. Because PC user are having the upper hand by finding out things that PS4 users can't (bard IJ snapshot for example)

A personal in game parser is needed to improve

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No we don't. Because as your earlier post said in agreement with mine. Party composition makes up a very significant chunk of your damage. And to make any accurate measure of your performance from a parse you need that information.

So any accurate parse can only be a group one and NOT a personal one.

If that ninja in your party ups your dps by 200. And that ast ups your dps by 200. And that bard ups your dps by 200. Then all of that information needs to be represented in a parse if a player is to get an accurate result. If it isn't included players are going to see huge variations in there dps without any explanation as to how or why because all that information will be missing so they have no idea where that dps comes from even though it is theres

And thus the information a personal parse would give them would be useless. because they wouldn't be able to account for where all the dps came from and why.

Don't get me wrong. Full parsers can help players improve a lot when used correctly. But a personal parse that doesn't tell you about the rest of the group is useless because as we've both already said. Party composition and the other members have a very significant impact on your dps. So you need to see that information as without it any numbers you get are useless which is why I said in response to this comment...

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

No in game parser unless it only shows your dps and nobody elses and only to you.

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That it was impossible to implement an accurate parse like this. to be accurate you must have ALL the parties information

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Originally Posted by Dzian

And thus the information a personal parse would give them would be useless. because they wouldn't be able to account for where all the dps came from and why.

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This very discussion has been done to death over the logs rankings already, there are a few solutions, some more elegant than others.

First up, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record here, my suggested approach of measuring potency per second rather than damage per second gets around this, you can still incorporate personal modifiers and combos whilst isolating it from cross party buffs to keep things simple and easy to understand whilst not misleading people once they start optimising within a static.

Secondly, an alternative to the above is to focus more on a players APM, this is actually the first thing many people will look at when going over logs and is a very useful figure for quickly (if rather vaguely) comparing your performance to someone else's.

Thirdly, if keeping the figure entirely person is key, simply subtracting cross party modifiers is another way to go. Of course this means the numbers will be incorrect and misleading for someone trying to optimise themselves within a static. Not a good solution imo.

Lastly, the approach logs took in the end, just present it as is and let people do with it as they will.

I think the devs have been pretty clear that dps meters are not going to be implemented into the game ever, and have even explained why.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I think the devs have been pretty clear that dps meters are not going to be implemented into the game ever, and have even explained why.

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They also once said Paladin will never block magic. Time and opinions change. Furthermore, the explanation they did offer isn't inherently accurate just because they say it. Frankly, it's a bit silly since everyone and their mother knows raiders have ACT running.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They also once said Paladin will never block magic. Time and opinions change. Furthermore, the explanation they did offer isn't inherently accurate just because they say it. Frankly, it's a bit silly since everyone and their mother knows raiders have ACT running.

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Did you watch the Live Letter Part XXXV. Its not going to happen. The devs have been very consistent regarding their stance regarding official dps meters, and even 3rd party being against the ToS. I think the attitude on the forums around dps affirms that people would be jerks if dps meters were officially accepted.

But hey, hold out hope if you want.... I don't see it ever happening.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Did you watch the Live Letter Part XXXV. Its not going to happen. The devs have been very consistent regarding their stance regarding official dps meters, and even 3rd party being against the ToS. I think the attitude on the forums around dps affirms that people would be jerks if dps meters were officially accepted.

But hey, hold out hope if you want.... I don't see it ever happening.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Personal Housing

While I cannot give a specific date on when personal housing will be implemented, I can say that prices will be completely separate from free company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable.

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Because everything said is 100% correct all the time and companies don't cough anything out that is incorrect or false. Never.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Because everything said is 100% correct all the time and companies don't cough anything out that is incorrect or false. Never.

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Ok, what have the devs stated regarding their stance on dps meters which is incorrect then?

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Ok, what have the devs stated regarding their stance on dps meters which is incorrect then?

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That it'll apparently start getting people harassed for damage numbers despite how it already happens, parser or not. I can't even tell a SMN to use dots without being called a parsing elitist. No numbers.

And honestly, after the statements of other things (Block shouldn't work with magic, because it wouldn't make sense. We can't have play dead, because people'll use them sexually like the M Lala one. Housing will not take up FC houses.)

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

This thread is not to debate the worth of parsers. It's a simple poll to like posts. It may be bumped, but DO NOT discuss the pros or cons of parsers. There are a substantial amount of parser threads.

Please like the appropriate posts. You may like more than one:

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.. poor OP.. nobody read the first page.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

First up, at the risk of sounding like a stuck record here, my suggested approach of measuring potency per second rather than damage per second gets around this, you can still incorporate personal modifiers and combos whilst isolating it from cross party buffs to keep things simple and easy to understand whilst not misleading people once they start optimising within a static..

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This is interesting but I question its accuracy. I'm not entirely sure how potency works but If you are correct and buffs / debuffs etc don't actually affect potency itself then PPS isn't necessarily a good indication of a players performance. a player could achieve quite a high PPS but actualy have a negative impact on there actual DPS.

A warrior for example could never touch the storms eye combo at all or let it drop off for long periods of time and just do more paths or bb combos and from a PPS perspective this would be seen as good play because the 20% damage buff from eye wouldn't affect actual potency. all those extra bbs might actual increase the pps

another example would be monk. in terms of potency a monk would basically never touch dragon kick or twin snakes. boot shine and true strike both offer larger potencies in there respective forms.

or ninja. skip suiton and use ration all the time. tcj your dotons. (if I recall the tcj buff actually means the doton combo is more total potency than the suiton one.

this could then lead to quite a lot of false positives as an increased PPS number could actualy result in decreased DPS.

So I wonder how usefull a PPS number would actually be. as you could effective suck at keeping self buffs and things up but still achieve a high PPS in which case it wouldn't really tell you anything about how optimally you are playing..

it is an interesting idea though.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

That it'll apparently start getting people harassed for damage numbers despite how it already happens, parser or not. I can't even tell a SMN to use dots without being called a parsing elitist. No numbers.

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o.0

So, despite it already happening, it won't start happening like the devs say it will if they made an official parser?

Uh... wha?

I'm pro parser myself. Saying some people won't openly harass people over their numbers is a lie. I've seen it myself plenty of times in other games. Not everyone uses a tool supplied to them responsibly. Not everyone abuses it either.

It sucks for the console players that want one won't get one but it is what it is. If it's that desired you'll get yourself a PC and get the parser there and be quiet about it. Or stick with the console and suck it up until they decide to change their stance, if they ever do that is.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

So, despite it already happening, it won't start happening like the devs say it will if they made an official parser?

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It can't start if it's already in progress.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

It can't start if it's already in progress.

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It can start happening openly if the first two rules about it are no longer you don't talk about it. And it had to start at some point if it's already in progress

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

o.0

So, despite it already happening, it won't start happening like the devs say it will if they made an official parser?

Uh... wha?

I'm pro parser myself. Saying some people won't openly harass people over their numbers is a lie. I've seen it myself plenty of times in other games. Not everyone uses a tool supplied to them responsibly. Not everyone abuses it either.

It sucks for the console players that want one won't get one but it is what it is. If it's that desired you'll get yourself a PC and get the parser there and be quiet about it. Or stick with the console and suck it up until they decide to change their stance, if they ever do that is.

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Sorry, my wording was poor.

I meant the reason is because people will harass if they put it in, but they already do it. Not having the parser doesn't mean people won't harass the DRG for not doing combo's.

Apologies if the wording was poor.

Yes, even if only for my own dps.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

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Them saying "It's not going to happen" regardless of how consistence their stance on it has been means nothing. There is no such thing as never when it comes to MMO development. There is going to come a point in FFXIV's life cycle where they are going to have to seriously consider their stance on certain things if they wish to remain afloat, everywhere from sever limitations, item storage all the way to what type of content is designed, which of course includes parsers. The fact that there are F2P MMOs that have the QoL features that this game should have had years ago is testament to this. There is no such thing is never, it's all a matter of time.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Did you watch the Live Letter Part XXXV. Its not going to happen. The devs have been very consistent regarding their stance regarding official dps meters, and even 3rd party being against the ToS. I think the attitude on the forums around dps affirms that people would be jerks if dps meters were officially accepted.

But hey, hold out hope if you want.... I don't see it ever happening.

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Yes. And I never said I believed they'd implement it nor do I "hold out hope." I simply argued putting to what the devs have said in the past means nothing. They have repeatedly changed their minds hence my example.

I now ask what attitude? This entire thread has been largely civil from the pro parse crowd. In fact, I've seen more "toxic" responses from people from the opposite side. You needs only go back a handful of pages to see yet another blind assumption that only "toxic jerks" want parses when the majority who do favour them do so because they want personal improvement and accountability.

No, I would not. If it was added, I would turn it off. If it was party wide, I would permanently disable party chat.

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Originally Posted by TensaiSogetsu

No, I would not. If it was added, I would turn it off. If it was party wide, I would permanently disable party chat.

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That's frankly quite a sad stance to take IMHO. I could make many comparisons to what you're saying, but it'd probably land me in trouble with the moderators here :/

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Originally Posted by Dzian

This is interesting but I question its accuracy. I'm not entirely sure how potency works but If you are correct and buffs / debuffs etc don't actually affect potency itself then PPS isn't necessarily a good indication of a players performance. a player could achieve quite a high PPS but actualy have a negative impact on there actual DPS.

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You misread my suggestion whoops.

To make a long story short, the way I see it:

Obviously, it'd track the potency values of the actions you apply, combo values and importantly, dot values would be factored in as well.

You could then apply a modifier over this on a per buff basis. Self buffs and job specific weapon type debuffs would need to be taken into account as you say above, it just wouldn't make sense for many DPS jobs if it didn't. Where things get murkier is of course choosing to factor in party buffs such as balance. IMHO the simplest solution here would be to have it to default to self only with an option to include party buffs into the modifier.

From there, you can display 2 numbers, your current potency per second and the modifier you are on at that point in time. Showing both highlights the effect of good buff/debuff usage which again as you say, is rather important.

If there's a sticky point with going with potency per second, it's on how to handle crit and buffs such as litany/chain. Handling straight % buffs and debuffs is no issue tho.

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Originally Posted by TensaiSogetsu

No, I would not. If it was added, I would turn it off. If it was party wide, I would permanently disable party chat.

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https://i.imgur.com/JWj8qyz.png You remind me of this guy. You gonna think it's fine to ignore the rest when they ask you to either know the mechanics or do enough dps. While everyone wants to either down or farm, 1 person which is also needed to do the mechanics correct, otherwise a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Yes. And I never said I believed they'd implement it nor do I "hold out hope." I simply argued putting to what the devs have said in the past means nothing. They have repeatedly changed their minds hence my example.

I now ask what attitude? This entire thread has been largely civil from the pro parse crowd. In fact, I've seen more "toxic" responses from people from the opposite side. You needs only go back a handful of pages to see yet another blind assumption that only "toxic jerks" want parses when the majority who do favour them do so because they want personal improvement and accountability.

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Have you not seen all the treads regarding other players not doing enough dps in casual content?

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Have you not seen all the treads regarding other players not doing enough dps in casual content?

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Care to link some of them?

If this is referring to the threads about how DPS aren’t using AOEs in large packs (since that’s a pretty common argument), then the threads have reason to be there, and the OPs are usually right: DPS should be using AOEs against large trash packs. Doesn’t take parsing to see when they aren’t using AOEs. If this is about healer DPS, then why is it okay for healers to use 1/3 of their toolkit, but not for DPS to do the same? If a WHM can only cast Cure, why can’t I just use Heavy Shot?

But these discussions have nothing to do with parser discussions. Like others have said, a few pages back there was a poster who said only people who parse are “toxic”, and then in the same breath spewed his own toxicity by saying they should be immediately banned from the game. Why is it that “anti-parser” posters are allowed to say things like that, but if a “pro-parser” poster says “I should have the right to kick a person who is not DPSing and looking to be carried through ShinEx or V4S from my party” labeled “toxic”?

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Have you not seen all the treads regarding other players not doing enough dps in casual content?

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I actually haven't, can you link a few?

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Have you not seen all the treads regarding other players not doing enough dps in casual content?

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Are you referring to the posts towards the end of Heavensward where the sub par vs decent DPS disparity was at it's peak?

Few of those posts or the comments in them were toxic or elitist IMHO, it was a fair observation of an issue that seemed to be steadily spiralling out of control. There's also plenty of examples of people referencing the typically poor DPS that average people do in story trials such as Shinryu with regards to how these sorts of encounters are tuned. Hardly toxic.

I'm in agreement with Bourne on this frankly, some casual players can be incredibly defensive to the point of being aggressive towards anything even hinting at them being below par. It's just a sore subject that some people don't have the mental fortitude to handle and deal with unfortunately. It's not even an exclusive MMO thing. Call a few people out on their standard of driving and you'll often see exactly the same sort of snap reactions.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

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Even if there were as many threads about players not doing enough dps in casual content, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There is nothing inherently wrong with discussing the topic itself, in fact there is entire thread with thousands of responses about bad DF groups that's been on the front page for years. All you're doing is grouping people that are for parsers and painting them all in a negative light, when in fact it's the people that are against parsers that are displaying the most hostility. It's getting ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Have you not seen all the treads regarding other players not doing enough dps in casual content?

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Which threads? Feel free to link. I mean... if you talk about no aoe from a dps, then yeah. The aoe is there for a reason, if you think overwise, you are wrong. But sure other than that, give us a coupel of links, we are pleased to wait.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

https://i.imgur.com/JWj8qyz.png You remind me of this guy. You gonna think it's fine to ignore the rest when they ask you to either know the mechanics or do enough dps. While everyone wants to either down or farm, 1 person which is also needed to do the mechanics correct, otherwise a wipe.

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I don't do farm parties so no, I don't need to see your inane ramblings. I make sure to atleast get a grasp on mechanics before I enter fights and stay up to date on gear, I don't need a number to know if I screwed up or not. Stop the hand holding. I have no need for your e-peen contests.

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Originally Posted by TensaiSogetsu

I make sure to atleast get a grasp on mechanics before I enter fights and stay up to date on gear, I don't need a number to know if I screwed up or not.

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You would be suprised how many players who keep their gear up to date and don't mess up a single mechanic are unable to pull their own weight DPS-wise. Last time I did OS4 with a pickup DD their DPS was so low if everyone else had played at their level we would have never been able to beat the fight even with 0 mistakes and deaths. And the person had i340 melded gear and did 0 mistakes. They might very well have thought they "didn't need a number" but they most certainly could have used one, because right now they were being carried hard. The worst thing is, they probably did know this, because they had seen and hidden their own parse rankings...