4) Because you are not keeping tracks of oGCDs, cause you use X spells to heals Y damage caused by Z ability from the boss and all those ability being scripted, you don't have to keep tracks of your oGCDs... AND most of the work is done outside of the fight with planification. Dots, you keep tracks of them if they have odd timer to be sure they don't align with anything. Not like the bards dots that all have the songs duration, to be sure you know when they're supposed to fades out...Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
5) I like that kind of spells but if you need space for it instead of an always usefull spells, that's not good.
6) Depends on the content:
Story content ? Should be gated to a basics level of competency (AoE on trash, DPSing healer, mitigation on tank and W2W past level 50) in my opinion because of daily roulette (people shouldn't have to carry others on daily content.).
Ex ? Gated to an understanding of your jobs(Know the correct rotation if not perfect.) and the mechanics of the fights.
Savages : Gated to a level of mastering your jobs (with room on the first 2 but not on the last 2 per tiers) with maximum uptime and doing your rotation, using all your kits for mitigations and mastering the mechanics in the fight.
7) I will splite it in two :
-An era when we had to GCD heals and more damage to heals.
-An era when GCD heals are for when things go hellish and we have less damage to heals (not me saying that, but it seems like everybody agreed on that.)
So no matter what king of DPS rotations we have, we need a more complex since the healing is less busy than before because of powerful oGCDs and less damage overall...
8) Mastering clunk is a skill by itself, if it's broke and you master, you can't be bad at what you're doing.
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06-30-2022, 07:33 PMKazelus
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06-30-2022, 07:58 PMpikalovrthis ones gonna be a doozy folks hold on tightQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
ah yes misconstruing points to make yourself to look better. if you put in no effort you don't deserve to clear higher difficulty content there's plenty of games where even low intensity builds or 0APM builds as they're sometimes called can still clear end game content. so no you're entire argument is null and void it has and always will be about effort. even in those LI builds you still need to have an basic understanding of your kit and rotation to achieve good DPS. if you're putting in the EFFORT good for you you deserve to clear harder content. but people who can't even handle basic mechanics like FoA/FoF baits should not even be in savage content to begin with. and i'll stand by that. once again JP can literally enter DF and almost guarantee a full tier clear regardless of day or how long it's been into the tier. weird how we over here in NA can't even trust players even using PF to be able to do the fight correctly even after setting it to duty cleared huh?
you want a prime example of someone who understands their kit beyond the base of it/doesn't mess up mehcanics versus someone who doesn't? i first timed SGE in P2s and dealt more DPS (even while being overcautious with my shields/heals and mitigations) than another SGE that had cleared the fight multiple times before but still messed up mechanics and had a basic understanding of their kit (they left after we hit enrage so i took over and we found a replacement tank instead). THAT is the difference between understanding your full kit/mechanics and just reading tooltips (basically understnading the absolute basics of your kit)\messing up multiple mechanics. that a player can use their job for the first time in a fight and still output more results than a player who mains that job and still doesn't understand their kit to it's full extent/mechanics of the fight.
now imagine the difference between that SGE and someone who DIDN'T even read their tooltips or abilities or sneaked in cause we forgot to set it to duty complete lied and said they completed the fight despite this being their first time in the fight. THAT is the point i'm trying to get across and why your take on increasing the skill ceiling will not allow the "casual" player to clear savage/EXs is absolute BS and always will be. even a SGE who at least reads their abilities/understands the basics of their kit and presses them when they think they should and knows most of the mechanics can STILL clear savages the only thing that changes is how fast the fight dies and nobody really cares about that outside of TSTSNBN. PLD the worst DPS of any job outside of healers on launch and technically still true now. still had PLENTY of clears of the tier even during the anti PLD period they still got plenty of clears i wonder why that works? hmmm... it's almost as if as long as you put in EFFORT and are able to clear the content people literally don't care.
hell i'll spell it out for you since i have too. just like we need to spell out every little mechanic for you as well "YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CLEAR HARDER CONTENT WITHOUT AT MINIMUM READING YOUR ABILITIES/SPELLS AND HAVING A BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR KIT AND ABILITY TO DO EVEN THE MOST BASIC OF MECHANICS" which shouldn't be an issue but here we are.
once again you can try to misconstrue my points all you want but you're not winning this argument/debate. we have so many examples of the "unoptimal"/"casual" jobs/people clearing savages/EXs it's not even funny. also funny how you still ignored my point on increasing peak DPS output.
also there are certain things that makes any points you bring up automatically less relevant and it's shit like this that makes your points automatically lose less value. you misconstrued and tried to twist what i was saying so it could benefit your argument that right there? is how you get people to not take you seriously and they shouldn't you have no actual points to bring up against me. or to use that in the current state of the game that the "easier/casual/weaker" jobs/players will be excluded. cause they won't and you know it full well. you just don't want to have to put in more effort than you do now even you yourself said you'd rather just be forced to heal more than deal with more complexity in your kit.
AST when reworked lost sleeve draw and triple (plannable) redraw and div lost it's need of you to think by removing the signs from it, but surprisingly maintained all it's healing tools and even got two new healing/mit tools. if you can give me one good reason why that is. MAYBE i'll consider your other points. -
06-30-2022, 10:19 PMXtrasweetteaNo. I was not stating that it is easier to track X dots versus X oGCDs. I am arguing that you had to do both and you were still given some level of authority over your decision making when it comes to GCD usage. Today, that SE has that taken most of that authority by limiting the tool kit to just heals and a small amount of damage (AST cards are "damage").Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
As other people have said, your cool-downs are preplanned prior to doing harder content, since the content is scripted.
Of course, casual content is scripted also... like when the final boss in Alzadaal's Legacy uses Billowy Bolts. It is spaced perfectly to where if you use Assize to heal the first Billowy Bolts, Assize will be ready again when the boss Billowy Bolts again. At that point, I am not "tracking" Assize, since I know it will be up by the next Billowy Bolt.
So what else is there for me to track then, if SE is going to make it to where each mechanic can be solved by an oGCD where the mechanic gap time matches perfectly with the oGCD I used to heal the damage?
It has to be damage in the form of buffs or dots. SE limited the variety of those and we're left with one DOT and AST cards that only buff damage. So my decision making is reduced down to how often can I spam my #1 until I need to refresh my DOT or Regen on the tank.
The only time there is any break if myself or other players fail mechanics that require healing. Even then, a simple Regen can take care of most damage from failing mechanics.
As for FFXI, I played during the peak of the game and during the downturn prior to the last expansion. That means I did group content since you could not solo efficiently past level 12 or so (unless you were a Beastmaster).
Claiming there is a "lack of twitch reflexes needed" for FFXI shows the gap in understanding of the game. You have never experienced trying to keep a mob's SMN avatar asleep, keeping an eye on the message in your text box (again no visual indicators) when the avatar wakes up, and casting sleep before the avatar wipes the whole raid (on top of cycling your spells and curing). You never had to emergency curing out of /heal because the tank just ate three critical hits in a row and would drop by the next hit. You never had to remove Silence and Paralyze from a PLD or NIN tank from mobs that would spam TP moves that would give those status affects within random increments, sometimes immediately after you removed the status affect off the tank.
FFXI does require twitch reflexes. What you are reacting to in FFXI is different than in FF14. -
06-30-2022, 10:26 PMKatoarI think it's admirable that you want to heal so much but you must come to the realization that Final Fantasy XIV does not support any type of traditional healer gameplay and has no plans of ever doing that. You are not going to heal most of the time, you will not be healing half of the time. A vast majority of the healing is done while actively dealing damage and Sage's Kardia-Kardon link and DPS-neutral healing GCDs further emphasized the direction devs have taken for healing gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I think the current state of PvP healers is better than the previous as it is more engaging and fun and you have more to do than watch party members' HP bars. I played primarily SCH for 2-3 days, entered crystal and I can tell you that I could barely find time to cast broil. In PvP we don't have strict rotation, Miracle is probably the most annoying cc as it is uncleansable. It is perfect for one-shotting an enemy as it blocks them from self-healing and Guard. PvP kits are made in a way that encourages people to spend more time thinking about how to use whatever they have at their disposal instead of simply using it on cooldown.
This may be true. But it is fun for people who want to have an impact on the outcome of the fights and skirmishes by offering support through an intriguing combination of DPS, HPS, CC, Buffs & Debuffs. In my personal subjective opinion, it is less stressful than managing the HPs of party members in PvP and feels more rewarding as there are more elements to the gameplay.Quote:
For a person that wants to HEAL people, that's not fun.
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06-30-2022, 10:35 PMCitadelPetition signed
A a Sage main, I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be more oversight into gameplay, that is a wonderful idea to get it straight from the top.
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06-30-2022, 11:27 PMQooEr1) thats what, 1 mechanic at the end of the fight? fires of asphodelos is literally not even hard to mitigate and most of the mitigation is done by non-healers anyways (addle reprisal etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by Katoar
2) im still not "tracking" my ogcds regardless. youre not sulposed to press heal ogcds on cooldown, you press them when its opportune. which often leads to many of them gathering dust on my hotbars because there's almost no damage doing out.
3) even if you Do want to somehow claim that we track ogcd heals, tracking a 18 second dot on top of a 30 second dot leads to me paying attention to the game way more often than tracking 60+s ogcds anyways. the problem is that healers have nothing to entertain themselves with after 27 seconds of pressing their dot. i literally space out in ultimate some pulls when theres time between mechanics because i dont even need to look at my screen to execute my 211111111111 "rotation" -
07-01-2022, 12:27 AMIDontPetLalas
@Renathras- I actually felt sad for you reading your posts, No, there's nothing "hidden" in what I wrote or others write if we disagree with you. You get extremely defensive and angry in many of your posts, and I don't see why that's necessary.
The changes or ideas that people are proposing may or may not come to pass, if it gets you that upset is it really worth your time? -
07-01-2022, 12:29 AMIDontPetLalasWell said, thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Katoar
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07-01-2022, 01:36 AMtearagionIt was, a whole lot more "fine" than it is now, but feel free to argue with me in a SMN thread about that instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Maplestory, MU, Tree of Savior, Guild Wars 1 (and 2, but only vanilla when there wasn't anything so "healer" as monk in 1, though staff Ele water spec'd was fun in WvWvW). I've excluded anything where healing is an afterthought (Lost Ark, Black Desert), and there are probably a couple I've forgotten. These all do have more damaging spells available to them, but you don't just get every skill at maximum power like in FFXIV so your mileage may vary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Either way these direct comparisons aren't very productive because combat and content aren't the same as in FFXIV. In FFXIV you WILL spend an inordinate amount of time not-healing, even in Ultimate, and having only 1 to press with nothing to think about is awful. Afflatus Misery hardly counts as a separate DPS button, it's just a consequence of saturating your Lily recharge, which if you keep up with will land in buffs anyway. Cards and ED are basically the only thoughtful damage a Healer can contribute at the moment. I see this as a problem. What's the damage profile like in these other games? Is it as predictable as FFXIV? As staggered? Are healers boring in those games too?
The Misery change produced a fantastic result to actual gameplay, it made your Afflatus spells worth using outside of untargetability sections or high movement demands. I say "tiny little" because the offensive suite wasn't particularly effected, just the healing options you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
When it comes to Savage healers just don't have to put in as much effort (I suppose you could interpret this to be false, depending on how much effort you consider a DPS role's rotation vs. a Healing plan committed to muscle memory to be) as the other roles to clear, which could very easily be perceived as a problem. Their damage contribution is already balanced to be the lowest so there's less holistic consequence to messing up, messing up has no further repercussions, and it's just kind of hard to mess up due to how simple dealing damage is. Of course, that's just one side of their job in a party, but healing doesn't fare much better. Outside of picking the best spot in a fight to Macrocosmos/Panhaima/etc., you can get by the whole tier just mindlessly rotating your CDs through every raidwide, mitigating the one or two moves that require it, and if you're feeling really motivated you can even drop your shiny new "put me on the tank for a buster" button (they don't actually need it) for the one buster a fight the tanks don't invuln (p3s was a welcome exception). The role is just utterly devoid of any effort investment, and as such any effort payoff and satisfaction. You could argue this is a bigger problem than SCH needing a couple more DoTs and I would agree oGCDs are simply too powerful and numerous at the moment, but 1 spamming is by far the most glaring issue with the healer role at the moment.
It's not about not wanting some people to clear, I hold the belief that anyone (barring severe disability or some other fringe exception) can clear any content in the game. Most just don't want to put in the effort to clear an Ultimate for example. So you have a role that takes less initial invested effort than any of the other roles by a decent margin, is that a good thing? The point of hard content is to challenge yourself and to improve, both of which take effort. It's basically depriving a role and anyone who wants to play to that role's fantasy while having something to improve on or strive towards. Maybe a little bit hyperbolic, but the point is it's not about "gatekeeping" anyone, it's about maintaining the entire purpose of difficult content. The end result might be that some are "gatekept" out of clears, but it would be on them for not investing the requisite effort, not on anyone else for wanting to maintain a higher echelon of player or some similarly absurd notion. Hopefully my thoughts surrounding the whole "elitist" debate are clear here; if they aren't I'll clarify. -
07-01-2022, 01:42 AMRyuDragnier
The healing problem sadly can't be fixed, unless the dev increased damage output of enemies across the board, and made it so there was more GCD healing then oGCD healing (meaning changing more heals to be GCD). Healing sucks because there's too much downtime because there are far too many oGCDs that can trivialize the damage, leaving us to spam DPS moves because we have very little to do thanks to those magic "ez heals" buttons. Unless they change it to where it's the opposite, to where most healing moves are GCD and DPS is oGCD, we're not likely going to see any major healing.
So until then, they need to spice up the DPS capabilities for healers. Old SCH is the best example of this. Miasma, Bio, Miasma II. 3 DoTs to use along with Broil. While that doesn't sound like much, it at least changed things up enough to where it wasn't that boring (though spamming Broils while waiting to reapply your DoTs was STILL boring).