Don't do chaotic raid again

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I think CAR is almost a special case, in that it's basically standalone content that nobody asked for that has even produced divisions within the raiding community. Plus its release timing was unfortunate given the reception to DT and other factors.

Any game can successfully include niche content. The issue is whether those who dislike it find enough to do in other areas of the game.

I'd agree SE has no reason to change if players remain subscribed. I'd suggest players do so for a host of reasons, mostly involving their friends. So let's see what happens to the subscriber count. I'm not one of the doomsayers who looks at one datapoint and announces 14 is in a death spiral.

I think there's actually a shortage of better alternatives, but if SE relies on that to maintain the subscription numbers, it may end poorly. I realize when Yoshi-P stated the game needed more stress he had many cheerleaders supporting the position, but with so many people playing 14 to relax and socialize, this strikes me as a dangerous decision.

Only time will tell.

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I think this is where there is difference of opinion. People asked for harder 4 man content, and we got Criterion and Criterion Savage. People have asked for harder 24 man, and we got Chaotic. The problem is "harder" is always going to be a subjective thing. For some, EX is already too hard. For others, EX is not hard at all.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Punishing is perhaps the wrong word, but either way..

It just generally doesn't matter or not for the most part whether you fail a mechanic and/or whether you can auto-attack a boss to death, both of these things just build up terrible complacency, both with how the difficulty 'curve' in this game works, and with how people play their classes. The game doesn't really encourage people to actually learn in most capacities.

People often seriously overestimate what the 'other' option entails. I think to a degree your response is actually an exhibit of this problem. If the game had a natural form of progression, then people wouldn't be intimidated by something like the teacups from Strayborough, or the Barreltender from Tender Valley, nor would players find it such a stressful experience, and nor would we really have threads like this created because those players that do go into this content will have a smooth transition since they would not be missing fundamentals.

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I've made this point in other contexts: those who are good at 14-style DDR combat seriously underestimate how difficult it is for others.

Are there players who refuse to learn the basics of their jobs? Yes.

Does a steady increase in fight difficulty help people improve at combat? Again, yes. But there is an intrinsic cap.

And there's also the question of how much effort players wish to put into combat in the first place, particularly when FF14 fight design is, to some, uninspiring. (Something being harder doesn't make it more interesting.)

The difficulty of DT normal dungeons and duties is already leading to people leaving the game. It's not about smooth transitions and learning fundamentals; they have reached a skill cap.

Now it's completely fine for any game to say: "we expect you to be able to do X, and if you can't, bye bye." But there are consequences for such decisions. And this common misunderstanding that players who struggle with current normal difficulty combat are simply lazy, or insufficiently "trained" by prior content is really problematic. Because it can lead to resources being spent on "solutions" that won't solve anything.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

You assume because you know nothing, you know something.

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Big words from someone who doesn't engage in PF, but paints the whole raiding scene as some toxic cesspool, even though that would get many people banned quite fast.
Big words from someone who doesn't do any difficult content, but has quite the opinion on how it works.
Big words from someone whose example of a convoluted mechanic was "a boss raising his fist and having a cast bar" ( https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...88#post6653088 )

Having you in discussions about combat content is so bizarre, since you have basically only experienced the "easy brain off" content. What combat design space can one possibly explore when "dodging the 3 second aoe marker" is the only mechanic that's acceptable to you?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

You say that about anyone who disagrees with you. Either that or claim they "peaked in high school."

There are many ways to play this game, Allen.

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There are many ways to play, that doesn't make them all justified or harmless. Joining a PvP game with no intention to actually do PvP / win, or worse, leeching / feeding, is harming other people's enjoyment. The whole "I don't really care about the game, I just want to chill" attitude isn't a healthy way to approach a game. If engagement with the game's activities doesn't provide the "chill" feedback one seeks, it's self-harm to engage in these activities. And it becomes anti-social behavior, when other people are involved.

Further, your whole "you say that about anyone who disagrees with you" is very much where the "peaked in high school" comes from. I don't, I say this to select individuals whose post are deeply troubling. There is nothing healthy about having a laundry list of things one "hates" in a game, and still doing things on that list. Or dramatically announcing that one leaves a thread, only to come back 3 days later like nothing happened, and being offended that people find such behavior juvenile.

First and foremost, the game is the way it is. It's a product. At some point, customers have to take responsibilities for their own actions.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

Further, your whole "you say that about anyone who disagrees with you" is very much where the "peaked in high school" comes from. I don't, I say this to select individuals whose post are deeply troubling. There is nothing healthy about having a laundry list of things one "hates" in a game, and still doing things on that list. Or dramatically announcing that one leaves a thread, only to come back 3 days later like nothing happened, and being offended that people find such behavior juvenile.

First and foremost, the game is the way it is. It's a product. At some point, customers have to take responsibilities for their own actions.

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So when you find someone else's posts "deeply troubling," you conclude the poster "peaked in high school."

Interesting. This is clearly some branch of post-Lacanian psychology of which I am unaware.

Still not following, honey, but given it's you who is being deeply troubled, I can only conclude it's a "you problem."

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

So when you find someone else's posts "deeply troubling," you conclude the poster "peaked in high school."

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No, I conclude someone peaked in high school, when most of their forum posts are nothing but cheap comments from the off.
Or when their whole points are nothing but non-sequiturs due to severely lacking in reading comprehension.
Or when the poster shows their inability to consider that other people might indeed hold a position earnestly.
Or when a poster regularly announces their departure from a thread, just to come back a few days later like nothing happened, but being offended that others indeed took notice and call it out.

"Deeply troubling" are people with a laundry list of activities and design decisions they "hate" (their own words), or cause them "distress" (their own words), or "induce severe anxiety" (their own words), but still engaging with these activities again and again. In fact, paying a monthly subscription, and often admitting to paying for cosmetics and regular phantasias, just to not enjoy themselves. Yes, that is troubling behavior. If you don't think it is, I can't argue empathy into you.

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Originally Posted by technole

Clear rates are okay for not even a month in, JP always higher since raiding is just a normal thing. It's definitely successful and they may have hit a sweet spot in difficulty.

https://i.imgur.com/RH2QtJV.png

Wicked Thunder Savage has about 200k clears worldwide, but of course that's been out for much much longer

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Yeah looks like it turned out fine.

>BLM has the lowest number of clears

Heh

The whole game is artificial difficulty because instead of 1, 8/24 people have to learn a script and not get distracted by their kid/partner/cat/whatever. If they allowed Trust bots for savages, ultimates and even alliance raids (it's easily possible because of the barebone braindead mechanics this game has) then the clear rate would be 100% and the whole 'high level play content' house of cards would come down faster than P. can say wtf.

Is that guy still yapping how much better than everyone else he is?

https://tomestone.gg/encounter/dawnt...tic/statistics
The progression rate for characters is very interesting.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

https://tomestone.gg/encounter/dawnt...tic/statistics
The progression rate for characters is very interesting.

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Pretty accurate where most of the fail is before swap, and post-swap scuffed memes.