Black Mage

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Originally Posted by Llugen

To fix Convert, I'd make it give you back a full MP bar and maybe even give you three Umbral Hearts and refresh Astral on top of that, and make it at least 90 seconds recast to line up with Ley Lines or 60 (and get rid of the HP penalty so the healers aren't driven crazy, perhaps rename it Indulge).

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Indulge: BLM slowly eats a decadent chocolate ice cream bar and refreshes his mystical energies :)

As for the Raise bit, I still fundamentally dislike the idea of BLM having one. Not for lore reasons (nearly anything can be made to work with the lore; that's part of why it's a fantasy setting), but because I want the buck to have stopped with RDM. No more caster rez. On the other hand, I get that the reality we deal with typically has room for one caster DPS per raid comp, and a backup rez is strongly preferred for progression raiding. In an ideal setting, caster-heavy comps would be competitive with physical damage comps, and BLM wouldn't be expected to compete directly against RDM and SMN utility for very limited slots.

I would say I can agree with that sentiment in large part.

There are a few major issues with a "competitive caster comp" especially as far as progression is concerned. First off, the current state of tanks will always be physical. Holy Spirit is obviously strong magic damage, but it still only makes up a small amount of the actual rotation of PLD. Secondly, healers, while magic damage of course, will still always have to do actual healing, meaning their damage will always be the lowest even in the most scripted of fights, furthermore one mistake from anyone and their damage is out the window having to recover. Lastly and perhaps most importantly, having a "caster comp" would mean terrible gear allocation for the group; 3 jobs fighting over the same gear would be disastrous in progression in particular.

If they implemented a caster tank, say BLU, then I could see a BLM/SMN or BLM/RDM comp being somewhat viable, since BLM generally stacks speed and the other two generally avoid speed, but BLM/RDM don't really have a lot of synergy together anyway. The best we could do right now would probably be PLD/DRK/WHM/AST/BLM/SMN/NIN/MCH but having no DRG means the MCH is worse off, hence the dilemma.

While I agree that RDM isn't that far ahead, I think it has less issues than BLM. Probably a potency increase to some things will give RDM the edge it needs, as it is a very prog-friendly, and not so hindered with movement, with a nice raidwide utility.

Erm, RDM has literally no issues. It's faceroll easy to play, can move literally every other cast, has really consistent/moderately strong damage, strong party support utility with Embolden, and is perfect for progression as a rez dispenser. It SHOULD be the weakest damage of the three casters, period.

If you say that BLM have troubles in mechanics like void blizzard 3/icestorm+levinbolt, I don't see how RDM fares any better. In small movements yes they are fine but in prolonged they start to fail the ABC rule pretty hard, while BLM do have a very marginal safety net.
Also I don't honestly believe embolden is 400+ rdps alone, I heard it was mathed out to be around 200 rdps, if that's correct they should then be a little below average BLM and crazy below a very good BLM and ofc much lower than SMN even before their rdps.

But they are rez dispenser so it's all good right? No, if a fight has either a tight dps check or a mechanich were dying makes the boss stronger, beign a rez dispenser is not that great if then you lack the dmg to close the fight
Consider that in 3.0 during A3s because their output was low AST were left out even thought their contribution to raid dps was, even with all the RNG shenanigans, above the other 2 healers. (Miunih did in fact believe it was A3s the fight were the difference would be shown)

SMN and RDM have pretty similar utilities however one does much more dmg than the others, beign able to do multiple ress will really offset that? Probably not because ppl might just go with BRD/MCH anyway.
STill the fact that they have been labeled this way makes me think that the problems will come eventually because it means that nothing else stands out, because another does it better one way or another

Btw what invoked the power creep of the ranged job, was the in-fitghing between the 2 on who had the best dps/utility possible and how the playerbase judged who was or wasn't competitive enough.
Because of this I say that we should try to avoid a repeat of this situation and be extremely careful on where the changes need to come to BLM while beign mindful of the surroundings

I know that it's fairly difficult that casters will ever be as competitive as the ranged meta because of lack of major synergies, but still that is the example that we should not replicate

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Also I don't honestly believe embolden is 400+ rdps alone, I heard it was mathed out to be around 200 rdps, if that's correct they should then be a little below average BLM and crazy below a very good BLM and ofc much lower than SMN even before their rdps.

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It's around 125-175 rDPS. Possibly less with unconventional comps. "Strong" is not the word I'd use to describe it. I'd probably use the phrase "It's something, I guess." As well our damage is bottom rung on most of the fights even at high percentiles. Rez dispenser or not, after progression there's not very much reason to take RDM, especially considering how SMN has taken off recently.

I had no issues with damage progressing on RDM and I was often top DPS in my group or second. Also, dualcast into swiftcast is perfect for void blizzard, or even melee combo and sidestep. RDM is just fine, trust me.

I’m pretty convinced that no one at SE plays, understands, or even cares about SMN so they will often just blanket fix it and break it, for example: the Aetherpact buff. RDM is still probably better for progression with emergency Vercure and Rez Dispenser (TM). If they really want to buff Embolden to be all damage, then fine I guess, but it's definitely a good choice. One of the best things about it is that it synergizes with other two minute buffs like Stratagem, Hypercharge, and Trick Attack (and/or Foe Requiem), so that makes it probably more valuable than whoever calculated out 170.

As far as after progression is concerned, it might not be the strongest thing to take for speedkilling or what have you, but it's not like it can't do the content. I would be thoroughly impressed if RDM EVER found itself being deliberately excluded from parties.

It's not like BLM or SMN (pre-4.1) were excluded either to my knowledge, at least not on my server anyway. No, it wouldn't be deliberately excluded, but once your group had the content down, you still get the same issue BLM of why bring it over SMN which deals far more damage, has somewhat comparable mobility and also has a raise. Additionally, you can't make the assumption that Embolden will always lone up with litany, TA, or Foes anymore than you can make the assumption that they will never line up.

I tried to get extra practice time outside of my static to test out stuff on blm and you'd be surprised at the number of of groups that set their dps slot no sams and no blms/smns. The partyfinder on blm vs on rdm is night and day. It in fact got to a point I just gave up trying to find outside practice.

Also rdms in statics will generally do an early embolden to line it up with trick instead of waiting for their mana since the personal dps loss from popping an early embolden is outweighed by the rdps increase to everyone else by lining it up with trick.

I wouldn't mind a slight boost to rdms damage. But rdm damage is about where brd/mch damage should be, I'd rather they buffed embolden, and put vercure on a 15s cd and made it an ogcd. It's because support jobs keep demanding they do comparable dps that pure dps jobs have no room in the game. Utility jobs will always have a space for them in groups because their utility is irreplaceable, pure dps jobs need to have irreplaceable dps to make them useful.

I'd like a clearer divide between dps and support jobs, buff the utility and reduce the damage of brd/mch/rdm/nin, then lower the utility and increase the damage of drg to put them on the same level as smn/mnk(increase the cost of smn raise), then buff blm/sam dmg. That would mean you'd have 2 spots for support dps, and 2 spots for pure dps. If you stack support you'd have no one to take advantage of your buffs, and sam/blm/mnk/smn/drg would all give similar rdps increases it'd just where the dps is distributed.

It would make roulettes a bit more random, but you can't balance random, and there's plenty of bad dps out there anyways. And it would still lock sam/blm out of parse runs, but it would at least open them for clear and farm parties.

Edit* Also I bet if fflogs found a way to assign damage increases from trick/foes/etc to the class that provided ex the buff like they did with radiant shield classes with utility would stop complaining about dps increases, and blm/sam would be way more welcome(if they get buffed). Everyone would get a clearer picture of real dps contribution and support classes would be able to shine still. It would mean the support classes dps would be reliant on having good party members, but as it is, dps rankings are reliant on having brd/nin/ast/sch(drg for brd/mch) and ast Rng.

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Originally Posted by TsuKoj

I tried to get extra practice time outside of my static to test out stuff on blm and you'd be surprised at the number of of groups that set their dps slot no sams and no blms/smns. The partyfinder on blm vs on rdm is night and day. It in fact got to a point I just gave up trying to find outside practice.

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Idiots will be idiots? Also is there the possibility that the slots are locked because they don't want to double up on jobs? When I make a pf I lock RDMs out because I don't want to double RDM.

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Also rdms in statics will generally do an early embolden to line it up with trick instead of waiting for their mana since the personal dps loss from popping an early embolden is outweighed by the rdps increase to everyone else by lining it up with trick.

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This is true.

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I wouldn't mind a slight boost to rdms damage. But rdm damage is about where brd/mch damage should be,

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On the very bottom; above BRD in one or two cases. Gotcha.

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I'd rather they buffed embolden,

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If they made embolden affect all damage, clipped SMN's potency so it wasn't stronger than Samurai, then Contagion + Embolden Lineups would make RDM/SMN/BLM crazy awesome.

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and put vercure on a 15s cd and made it an ogcd

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As long as vercure still procced Dualcast so I could use it mid-phase transition...the way that vercure is mainly used as in actual content.

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It's because support jobs keep demanding they do comparable dps that pure dps jobs have no room in the game. Utility jobs will always have a space for them in groups because their utility is irreplaceable, pure dps jobs need to have irreplaceable dps to make them useful.

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See this is the paragraph I have the most issue with because you claim Summoner to be a pure-dps type dps...when it's not. It brings more added damage utility in more forms than RDM does, retains a rez, and has more utility than RDM does. At the moment it's one of if not the absolute zeniths of dps jobs, because in personal dps it matches SAM in almost every fight and passes it when it's not riding it's butt, and it brings rDPS alongside healing buffs.

SMN is every bit the support you claim to want to nerf but you act like SMN is meant to be on top because...why? And I know you don't want SMN touched in this way because your divide is quite clearly stated as "rdm/mch/nin/brd" as supports and "smn/blm/sam/drg" as true dds.

SMN would need heavy nerfs to Contagion, Radiant Shield, and Devotion to be considered a pure dps. BLM needs damage buffs to beat SMN anyway, as it should be the job matching or surpassing SAM as it is the "SAM of Casting".

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I'd like a clearer divide between dps and support jobs,

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TBH, if they were to do this I'd prefer them to add a new role, "Support", that way people knew what they were getting into; dungeons could be changed to be 5 man (Tank/Heal/DPS/DPS/Support) and re-balanced a bit perhaps.

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buff the utility and reduce the damage of brd/mch/rdm/nin,

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https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42 those four jobs are already the lowest outputting jobs, and you want them to output even less than they do. Perhaps NIN and MCH could be dropped a bit, if you really wanted to carve a divide here though.

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then lower the utility and increase the damage of drg to put them on the same level as smn/mnk(increase the cost of smn raise),

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First: put them on the level of SMN? You mean make them SAM+rDPS too?

Second: The SMN raise isn't really the issue here. The MP cost for raise doesn't need adjusting to pull them into pure DPS territory, the sheer amount and variety of dps buffs need to be pulled back. As it is, they are Black Mage + rDPS right now, beating BLM out of every fight on personal dps alone, not to mention the buffs they give the party.

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then buff blm/sam dmg.

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I can agree BLM damage needs buffed, but I think SAM should be the ceiling as it is now; though perhaps both could be buffed.

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That would mean you'd have 2 spots for support dps, and 2 spots for pure dps.

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Going back to before: if they do this, make a whole new role and name it "Support".

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If you stack support you'd have no one to take advantage of your buffs, and sam/blm/mnk/smn/drg would all give similar rdps increases it'd just where the dps is distributed.

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I can definitely see what you're trying to achieve here; that's a good idea to try to achieve balance. I don't see it working with this game the way it is right now though.

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And it would still lock sam/blm out of parse runs, but it would at least open them for clear and farm parties.

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I don't see all these BLM/SMN lockouts you do; and I have no proof those lockouts are because people don't want those jobs, and not because people already have those in the party and don't want to double up or have the possibility of having to fight over loot drops.