SMN - knowing the class (part 1)

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Originally Posted by XenabelleS

I have a question.

How do people keep Ifrit egi alive in heavy aoe fights like the ones in Stone Vigil and Garuda? I find on every attempt I've done, my egi dies partway through the fight.

Now I know it's my responsibility to monitor its health but between focusing on my rotation and avoiding the aoe's myself, I often only notice when it is nearly dead and have not enough time to get in range/react.

How are folks managing this as they are a chunk of our damage?

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Cast Sustain once in a while. If that isn't enough for a specific fight, then you'll need Swiftcast from THM to resummon it.

Generally, Garuda-Egi is much better since you can leave it in a safe place in most fights, and Contagion is really good.

Rover1983, you are so clueless. ShadowFlare is an aoe "dot" that is really good for ST and AOE. You cast it, it lasts 30 seconds. You can then cast your dots, use bane to dot all the other adds. You will do far more damage than everyone else 'cause your AOE damage are still going while you do your ST rotation. We are not about BURST. We are a DPS class.

Ofc if the adds die in 2 sec, shadowflare is useless and you'd better off using something else but you just forgot how good it is. Just look at every fight when you have to move a lot : while you are moving, your dots, your pet and your shadowflare are still hurting the boss hard. Meanwhile the BLM can't do shit except some instant, the melee class can't do shit either since they are not in melee. Only the bards are doing something.

Summoners have to stand to cast for at least 11 GCDs out of 24 GCDs a minute (2 Bio 2, 2 Shadow Flare, 3 Miasma, 4 Thunder). Better than a Black Mage, but we're still vulnerable to having to move when a DoT falls off.

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Originally Posted by Sacerdos

Summoners have to stand to cast for at least 11 GCDs out of 24 GCDs a minute (2 Bio 2, 2 Shadow Flare, 3 Miasma, 4 Thunder). Better than a Black Mage, but we're still vulnerable to having to move when a DoT falls off.

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Yeah, but I generally ask the tank to pull just before I finish the cast of my first dot. And Garuda helps with that. I was talking in general. And when you are used to a fight, you know when you will have to move etc so you can time your dots/garuda's "refresh"

Something I'd like is for bind to disable threat gain like sleep does. You can't actually use Tri-disaster as CC for melee mobs in a dungeon since the healer will get massive amounts of aggro on bound enemies.

Clearly tanks suck then, if other people are getting targeted. Tank's job is to get agro from all mobs and maintain it. Both tank class have aoe tanking skills, it's just that tanks are not using them. They will use it once at beginning of the fight then they don't put the aoe agro skill in their rotation. How hard is it to put aoe agro or frontal cone agro and use them? I am even considering going back to tanking just cause I am annoyed with tanks from DF. I have met only 2 tanks so far who knows their class and keep hate from all mobs.

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Originally Posted by nimuniverse

Clearly tanks suck then, if other people are getting targeted. Tank's job is to get agro from all mobs and maintain it. Both tank class have aoe tanking skills, it's just that tanks are not using them. They will use it once at beginning of the fight then they don't put the aoe agro skill in their rotation. How hard is it to put aoe agro or frontal cone agro and use them? I am even considering going back to tanking just cause I am annoyed with tanks from DF. I have met only 2 tanks so far who knows their class and keep hate from all mobs.

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If you hit a bound enemy, Bind breaks. So the tank can't build aggro on them if you want to keep them CC'd with Tri-disaster, but the healer is gaining healing aggro since unlike Sleep, Bind doesn't stop healing aggro generation.

Not an issue with tanks, Bind just isn't as useful as Sleep as a CC.

As paladin, you can do fast blade -> savage blade -> rage of halone, then flash. You don't need to even get up to rage of halone, you can use flash to maintain agro on your first add. If you run low on mp, use fast blade -> riot blade. You can put flash in every 3-4 skill rotation. Even if your enemy is bound, flash still put agro from them. It's simple. As warrior, you can use overpower and steel cyclone (when available) to keep hate on all mobs. It's not that easy as paladin's flash, but you can keep hate from all mob. I haven't tanked as warrior, but I think you can also get flash from cross-skill. If they do their job, there's no need for bind or sleep. If blm is in party and want to sleep, that's fine.
If you hit an enemy that is asleep, sleep breaks too. But yes, to your point sleep CC is better than bind CC. But my point is if tank knows how to play their class then no reason to cast tri-disaster.

Its easier on the healer if you CC. Against a single mob, the Healer can just dps in Cleric Stance while Regen/Fairy is enough healing to keep the tank up.

Shamirah,How am I clueless when Im clearly stating a fact. It would take multiple casts of Shadow Flare to equal 1 or 2 AoE's from other classes. Tell me where the logic is in that if were talking about "balance". It takes me 13 seconds for all my dots, not including shadow flare to finally start ticking. 13 seconds. Thats 13 seconds other dps classes can dish out lots of dmg. I feel with how "slow" our class is right now, we wont ever be cometitive in dmg. I know were a dot class but it takes us too long right now to start doing dmg. We need our GCD's on our dots lower, or cast time to be instant so that our dots can start rolling. If we were given the ability to throw our dots quicker it would be great, but it currently takes way too long to get our abilities up.

Lol? You are clueless.

No, shadow flare is a 250 potency AoE. Besides 3 stacks of AF BLM, name one other AoE that is that strong and not on a huge timer(Dragonfire Dive).

It doesn't take 13 seconds for them to start ticking. They're still ticking while you're setting up.

Slow? After 3 GCDs we can use an off-GCD 300 potency attack.

Summoner vs Bard AoE:

Our AoE potency, assuming ideal conditions for Bane (adds spawning on top of the boss), is Bio 1 (40) + Bio 2 (35) + Miasma (35) + Miasma 2 (10) + Shadow Flare (25) = 145 potency per 3 seconds. Chaining tridisaster adds another 35 potency per 3 seconds, for 180 potency per 3 seconds total.

A Bard using Circle of Flame (35 potency per tick) and spamming Quick Nock every GCD, will do 132 (adding 20% to Quick Nock's 110 potency as a GCD is 2.5s and not 3s) + 35 = 167 potency per 3 seconds.

Without good positioning, the Summoner has a 13 second ramp up time for Bio 1, Bio 2, Miasma, Miasma 2, and Shadow Flare. With good positioning, Shadow Flare will already be up and Bane will spread the DoTs, for only 2.5s of ramp up for Miasma 2.

Bard's Circle of Flame is instant and Quick Nock is instant, but both are on the GCD, for 2.5s of ramp up for casting Circle of Flame.

Conclusion: Summoner AoE is competitive, but heavily dependent on good positioning of add spawns.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Lol? You are clueless.

No, shadow flare is a 250 potency AoE. Besides 3 stacks of AF BLM, name one other AoE that is that strong and not on a huge timer(Dragonfire Dive).

It doesn't take 13 seconds for them to start ticking. They're still ticking while you're setting up.

Slow? After 3 GCDs we can use an off-GCD 300 potency attack.

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I think some people just want to see big numbers to make their e-peen grow. Shadowflare should tick for 400 damage every second for them.

I think the real pain isn't the damage... its the amount of cast time we have for dots... we take like 10-12 seconds to toss everything out every 20 secondsish? Its kind of annoying to deal with let alone managing the pet also.

Is it better just to let Garuda go all out or to put her on obey so tbat you control when contagion is used. Seems like obey would be tbe way to go. But im not sure if thats too much of a dps loss by restricting her. Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Amsai

Is it better just to let Garuda go all out or to put her on obey so tbat you control when contagion is used. Seems like obey would be tbe way to go. But im not sure if thats too much of a dps loss by restricting her. Any thoughts?

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If you don't do it manually she will cast the extension before you cast Thunder. Also, her basic spell is more DPS than her other abilities, so you shouldn't have her use them anyway.

Thanks Rev. appreciate ya.

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Originally Posted by Sacerdos

Bard's Circle of Flame is instant and Quick Nock is instant, but both are on the GCD, for 2.5s of ramp up for casting Circle of Flame.

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Flaming Arrow is actually off-CD.

Well when you compare smn to an class that is slightly overpowered than people start to think its weak i guess. The irony is that ive been beating most of the bards i group with but skill does play a factor i guess.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Lol? You are clueless.

No, shadow flare is a 250 potency AoE. Besides 3 stacks of AF BLM, name one other AoE that is that strong and not on a huge timer(Dragonfire Dive).

It doesn't take 13 seconds for them to start ticking. They're still ticking while you're setting up.

Slow? After 3 GCDs we can use an off-GCD 300 potency attack.

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why is math so hard for you?

it takes 30 seconds for shadow flare to do that 250 potency.

in 30 seconds, how many 100 potency aoe's can other classes spit out?

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Originally Posted by Dixa

why is math so hard for you?

it takes 30 seconds for shadow flare to do that 250 potency.

in 30 seconds, how many 100 potency aoe's can other classes spit out?

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In that 30s, what else is the SMN doing? Certainly it's not just sitting there twiddling their thumbs.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

In that 30s, what else is the SMN doing? Certainly it's not just sitting there twiddling their thumbs.

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in 30s what else are other classes doing since it only takes them 3 aoe casts to exceed that shadowflare damage, which is 7.5 seconds out of that 30?

facetious argument is facetious

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Originally Posted by Dixa

in 30s what else are other classes doing since it only takes them 3 aoe casts to exceed that shadowflare damage, which is 7.5 seconds out of that 30?

facetious argument is facetious

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So it takes them 3 AoE casts to exceed 1 AoE cast.

Okay.

It's not like Summoner can have 4 AoE DoTs on top of that..And then still use other skills.

chur to the SMN brothers and sisters, new to the mmo scene but old to the FF series and absolutley loving it, reading this has bn prty funi as most of the shit is flying str8 over my head but have bn picking up some decent n a half tips from u guys so chur chur to tht, 1 question tho is it better to stay arcanist rather thn summoner as i c use are all aracanist 50 or is tht jst cos it falls under main class n not job, inb4 noob slander lol. also hvn a blast playing as summoner as ur always changing it up wn needed n not jst constanly doing the same thing, oh another thing ive only got titan and ifrit atm but was wondering which is best to use, i use titan wn solo and seem to b using ifrit in dungeons as thts wat the party im with want when i ask which they'd prefer. neways thts me 4now n hope to learn alot more from use fallahs. chur chur!

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Originally Posted by MetalGearMuzz

chur to the SMN brothers and sisters, new to the mmo scene but old to the FF series and absolutley loving it, reading this has bn prty funi as most of the shit is flying str8 over my head but have bn picking up some decent n a half tips from u guys so chur chur to tht, 1 question tho is it better to stay arcanist rather thn summoner as i c use are all aracanist 50 or is tht jst cos it falls under main class n not job, inb4 noob slander lol. also hvn a blast playing as summoner as ur always changing it up wn needed n not jst constanly doing the same thing, oh another thing ive only got titan and ifrit atm but was wondering which is best to use, i use titan wn solo and seem to b using ifrit in dungeons as thts wat the party im with want when i ask which they'd prefer. neways thts me 4now n hope to learn alot more from use fallahs. chur chur!

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WTH did I just read?

something us kiwis call FRESH! :) chur.

Right now Summoner is a little to dependent on the tank not enjoying his favorite food: Paint Chips. That or seeing something shiny on a window and incessantly licking said window. Bane needs a larger radius, preferably 10m OR to spread the DoT's from one target to all targets near a target, IE DoT something, click tank, hit Bane, get everything he's actually tanking.

Thread Necro!

After revisiting summoner DPS after getting geared in AK & Coil, I've found that they're perfectly fine and capable of maintaining over 200 DPS on relevant content; more so if there's multiple monsters in the pull. Maintaining Bio (40 Potency), Bio II (35 Potency), Thunder (35 Potency), Miasma (35 Potency), and Shadow Flare (25 Potency) is a significant amount of damage; upwards of 420 to 450 per tick, and 340 or so per tick that can be spread to other monsters through a use of Bane. Add in Fester (Roughly 600 to 700 damage every ten seconds) and the sustained damage of your pet, which is the equivilant of a 100 potency DoT for Garuda or 120 for Ifrit, and you reach significant amounts of sustained damage. The two primary challenges are keeping MP up over a long fight (Aetherflow can only do so much, and Energy Drain is less attractive than Fester) and pet maintenance (Rouse & Spur cooldowns, placement during certain fights).

They also bring significant utility, mainly in the form of an being the only non-healer with a combat resurrection (that can be swiftcast-ed) and the ability to heal in a pinch. Despite my reservations earlier in Early Access and release, summoners are a-ok in my book.