Alpha First Look: Video 3 - The Black Shroud

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coyohma

That would be the little in "little to no." They haven't made illusions about it being much more than an aesthetic decision - one made because it is standard in western MMOs. Is your view that functional jumping opportunities will be prevalent enough to where extraneous jumping will not dominate functional?

There seems to be a strange amount of pushback (given a usual preference for toggle options) to this idea. It's not enough that you can jump as much as you please, but you need 100% of other players seeing it as well?

---

You're picking at straws now. producer live letter II

They've completely renovated the map for jump as stated by Yoshi-P in the live letter 2.


You haven't played much Korean style MMOs have you? Jump is not just a western thing..

All this nagging about the jumping is just making me pull my hair. Well, not really, but honestly jumping BELONGS in a MMORPG. The exploration part and feeling of freedom to leave the ground is very important to these games, being able to jump on top of/over anything instead of having to run around a tiny pebble, makes the world a lot more natural. So what if they JUMP a lot in the vids. They're demonstrating it. Once the game is out there I can assure you that people will behave EXACTLY the same way as they do on any other jump-enabled mmo: Jump when necessary.

Great video.

My one complaint for this video is the map revealing. It seems like too much of the area is revealed all at once. Also it seems a little broken, the character was traveling west, but the area to the south was revealed ?

Seems like this feature needs some work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Landale

All this nagging about the jumping is just making me pull my hair. Well, not really, but honestly jumping BELONGS in a MMORPG. The exploration part and feeling of freedom to leave the ground is very important to these games, being able to jump on top of/over anything instead of having to run around a tiny pebble, makes the world a lot more natural. So what if they JUMP a lot in the vids. They're demonstrating it. Once the game is out there I can assure you that people will behave EXACTLY the same way as they do on any other jump-enabled mmo: Jump when necessary.

---

I've played jump enabled MMOs as well and in my experience people jump because they haven't jumped in the last second. If a game without jump requires you to go around everything that is a level design problem due to the levels not being made with the lack of jump in mind. Honestly if a fence is in my way in an MMO or the real world I don't think "Oh, I need to jump that" because I'm not Mario.

If a little rock you could step over is in your way it is because the level is messed up not because you can't jump it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

Great video.

My one complaint for this video is the map revealing. It seems like too much of the area is revealed all at once. Also it seems a little broken, the character was traveling west, but the area to the south was revealed ?

Seems like this feature needs some work.

---

Maybe it needs to reveal the map for the area when you reach the middle of the area, not the edge. At least further in than right on the edge, that prevents the hysteresis of when you reach the corner of 3 areas and they all pop into view at once like in the video.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrien

You're picking at straws now. producer live letter II

They've completely renovated the map for jump as stated by Yoshi-P in the live letter 2.


You haven't played much Korean style MMOs have you? Jump is not just a western thing..

---

So you directly answered neither of my two questions. I'll assume for the first that you're saying no, extraneous will not dominate functional.

And while there is no use to replying to this point, I used the term "western" because most of the references from Yoshida concerning other games have been western.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coyohma

So you directly answered neither of my two questions. I'll assume for the first that you're saying no, extraneous will not dominate functional.

And while there is no use to replying to this point, I used the term "western" because most of the references from Yoshida concerning other games have been western.

---

Look, whether or not someone jumps just for fun it is up to them, it is freedom, and that they wont feel bound to the ground. When the opportunity arrive to use it for ease of transport they'll just jump over it like normal.

There is nothing irrelevant about it. People jump for joy, happiness, sports, and a way to get around things even in real life. The demonstration shows all this, it speaks for itself.

edit: Regarding the other question. To me it wont look right if I see somebody walk through a rock, or slide over something, or even phase right through a fence like a ghost and what not. It just doesn't look right. A toggle option to me is a waste of time. If they do implement it, it wont bother me but I still think it is a waste of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrien

Look, whether or not someone jumps just for fun it is up to them, it is freedom, and that they wont feel bond to the ground. When the opportunity arrive to use it for ease of transport they'll just jump over it like normal.

---

Feeling bound to the ground really isn't any more important than being distracted by other player's nervous jumping. Both are personal annoyances that people have little choice over feeling. I played FFXI for 8 years and never felt like I needed to jump.

We'll see. If people are popping like pop-corn a week into beta then I'm gonna be bringing it up. If they aren't then I'm gonna shrug my shoulders and move on.

The theme at 2:50 is so so good.
I think the more ambient and relaxed music with silent breaks is the way to go in MMOs. But I know there will be those epic FF tracks for when the situation calls for it. Really happy with the direction the music seems to be going. That's what I'd say is the strongest showing right now. Following that up would be the art direction. We've only really seen the Shroud area so far but it looks good. I like the more than just green design. Also that there are places where you can actually see the sky. It's a good idea for every area to look a bit different from the original game.

I'm split on the UI. It's obviously a big improvement in terms of functionality and speed - that's great. What I dislike is the design. It looks like styles from two different games mashed together. The map, compass, mini-menu and job icons look classy fantasy with dark colors and brass. But all HP/MP/TP bars and action bar look futuristic sci-fi with bright glowing neon colors. The bright neon doesn't really fit with the rest and against the overall look of the world it just feels jarring and distracting to me. Maybe if they could just be toned down or changed to deeper colors (forest green, royal red instead of lime green and pepto pink)?

I appreciate that our feedback seems to be asked for and heard this time around so I hope it's taken to heart when so many people have repeated that the character animations aren't up to expectations for a FF. I understand that some things can't be exactly like the original FFXIV and you are so focused in creating a better gameplay and overall experience than the original game that it might be hard to look beyond the original problems. But I must remind you that not responding to the concerns and criticisms players had in the original alpha/beta is what led to dissatisfaction with the original release. Even if you fix the old problems you have to still be aware of what new ones you could be creating. If enough people are not satisfied with the animations then they must be improved.

First thank you so much for the video about the Black Shroud! I can hardly wait to be able to explore these new scenic areas. I do wonder if an entire zone is revealed the moment you enter it though?

Second, about jumping if you want to you will, if not then don't. I for one hope that exploration achievements can be gotten through the use of getting to some areas that can only be reached by jumping.

Thank you again!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ursus

I'm split on the UI. It's obviously a big improvement in terms of functionality and speed - that's great. What I dislike is the design. It looks like styles from two different games mashed together. The map, compass, mini-menu and job icons look classy fantasy with dark colors and brass. But all HP/MP/TP bars and action bar look futuristic sci-fi with bright glowing neon colors. The bright neon doesn't really fit with the rest and against the overall look of the world it just feels jarring and distracting to me. Maybe if they could just be toned down or changed to deeper colors (forest green, royal red instead of lime green and pepto pink)?

---

It seems like the selection indicators on the UI are very bright (along with important numbers like MP/HP/TP). I found this to be very distinctive and interesting choice since like you said it has a very science fiction feel to it. It is like these elements are trying to draw attention to themselves as computer interface elements. The selection cursor, floating character names, floating character hp, and selection indicator under selected npcs, are all very bright. These elements also float on top of everything else for the most part (they are not occluded by world geometry). It is like a HUD of a fighter jet.

In a way I like the contrast, but I think you are right that neon colors might be too much. Maybe they will let us choose the colors of the indicators so we can choose less saturated colors. I also do not mind if somebody's name is blocked by another player as this has never caused me any trouble in selecting people (since I have always used more precise methods like the function keys or up/down on the D-pad).

On the one hand I like how much it contrasts, on the other I see how they almost certainly need to let people choose color themes.

Well, you get a great deal of game play and level design FROM Jumping as well. Take Gw2 as an example. Finding and getting to Vista's by jumping is a great little minigame and it brings you to further understand your surroundings.
Also by jumping has been used in gameplay purposes as well. Rift has a Boss that makes you jump all over the place or well, you'll die.
Sure, I can't jump over fences IRL because I am, honestly, too short. BUT I have climbed them instead of trekking round the whole thing. BUT you could have the option of going around if. See right there. The option. Either you can jump it or go round it, but at least the option is there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrien

edit: Regarding the other question. To me it wont look right if I see somebody walk through a rock, or slide over something, or even phase right through a fence like a ghost and what not. A toggle option to me is a waste of time.

---

The obvious point here is that you wouldn't see any of that if you so chose. It would be a safety net for people seeing hundreds upon hundreds of useless jumps and getting annoyed. There's nothing wrong with bringing the idea up now, when SE has plenty of time to consider it.

edit - the best solution would be for only extraneous jumps to be censored. Where if you are jumping a fence or on a rock it would still show that animation. That's a lot more ambitious, but again, my opinion is just that this is a valid consideration.

Positive:
- areas look great, I like how the Shroud doesn't feel cramped anymore.
- map exploration
- music is really fitting, I like the majority of it. The transitions are fluent and much better than our current ones.

Neutral:
- some music sounds "too simple", but maybe it just needs some time to evolve into something more elaborate
- map discovery radius is a bit too big, adjust the size to the radius of what is visible from the current position, for example

Negative:
- well, it's been said already for previous videos... we absolutely need transitional animations between movement states.

#######

@Lighting being weird: they already said the alpha build is a frozen branch of the main build, so the lighting is not optimized yet.

@Jumping: There is no need to jump around repeatedly on a plain surface. Just showcasing it when jumping over obstacles is completely fine and looks more tasteful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coyohma

The obvious point here is that you wouldn't see any of that if you so chose. It would be a safety net for people seeing hundreds upon hundreds of useless jumps and getting annoyed. There's nothing wrong with bringing the idea up now, when SE has plenty of time to consider it.

---

let me get this straight. you wont mind seeing hundreds of people slide up hills, or phase through objects like a ghost?

Looks great - keep up the good work! Enough with the fraking jumping already though. We get it, jumping has been implemented lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrien

let me get this straight. you wont mind seeing hundreds of people slide up hills, or phase through objects like a ghost?

---

This is what you are not getting yet. When me and Coyohma say that we are annoyed by people jumping constantly for no reason we mean it. We aren't just trying to be fuddy-duddies who want to spoil everybody's fun. We really are bothered that much by it. We really would flip such an option on and prefer it.

When I watched the Live Letter, I just knew that every large gathering of players would look exactly like that. It just completely spoils the mood for me to see all those avatars bouncing around like the ground is made of lava.

Edit: Speaking of annoying things in the Live Letter, does anybody know what the white flash with accompanying sound effect was? It was almost happening as much as jumping but without knowing what it was I cannot say if it needs to be toned down or not.

The scenery is positively stunning! I love all the details (I noticed the leaves on the ground), and the variety of different scenery and structures. NO regrets to having started in Grid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrien

let me get this straight. you wont mind seeing hundreds of people slide up hills, or phase through objects like a ghost?

---

Why would they slide up hills instead of running? The point in looking into this now is to see how feasible it is, what you can do in place of the jumping animation. Also, even if we assume the absolute worst and it isn't pretty, wouldn't this still be a valuable thing to have in town when you're just tired of people hopping around you as you craft, do quests, etc?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupster

This is what you are not getting yet. When me and Coyohma say that we are annoyed by people jumping constantly for no reason we mean it. We aren't just trying to be fuddy-duddies who want to spoil everybody's fun. We really are bothered that much by it. We really would flip such an option on and prefer it.

When I watched the Live Letter, I just knew that every large gathering of players would look exactly like that. It just completely spoils the mood for me to see all those avatars bouncing around like the ground is made of lava.

Edit: Speaking of annoying things in the Live Letter, does anybody know what the white flash with accompanying sound effect was? It was almost happening as much as jumping but without knowing what it was I cannot say if it needs to be toned down or not.

---

So you are not being fuddy duddies, you're just being fuddy duddies who prefer bad graphics.

Keep in mind that you are in fact playing with other people, you can blacklist them, you can make linkshells without them. But you can't, and shouldn't, toggle their actions and pretend what they do doesn't exist in the game.

Share Eorzea, don't partition it off in a sea of toggles.

Constructive ideas about jumping:

Needs animation for standing jump and running jump.

IIRC there is the ability to run fast? Perhaps make jumping reset the cool down for this ability, so that running fast and jumping constantly become incompatible

Limit jumping to once every 1-1.5 seconds. This would limit server load (negligible, but good excuse to do it), and maybe is just enough to keep people from nervously jumping (maybe, would need research).

Give option to hide jumping the same as we can hide other things players do such as chat channels and blacklisting.

Make jumping a less common button or button combination.

You can jump as fast and as often as you like, but if you spam it you have to rest it for X number of seconds.

--

So, I'm not trying to say "NO JUMPING!", I'm just trying to reduce how silly it could end up being. I like to have fun, but at the same time imagine how silly it would be if Frodo jumped all the way to Mordor....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

So you are not being fuddy duddies, you're just being fuddy duddies who prefer bad graphics.

Keep in mind that you are in fact playing with other people, you can blacklist them, you can make linkshells without them. But you can't, and shouldn't, toggle their actions and pretend what they do doesn't exist in the game.

Share Eorzea, don't partition it off in a sea of toggles.

---

Not fuddy-duddies period.

You actually need to make a case here why jumping is different than chat channels including emotes which can be blocked.

Edit: As for preferring bad graphics, you obviously haven't read my other posts related to nit-picking the graphics.

I'm not saying don't add toggle, I just think its a complete waste of time. The fact of the matter is, a small percentage, of the already small forum user base has a unique issue. I really doubt that will change anything. Good luck with your campaign.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrien

I'm not saying don't add toggle, I just think its a complete waste of time. The fact of the matter is, a small percentage, of the already small forum user base has a unique issue. I really doubt that will change anything. Good luck with your campaign.

---

Thank you. I think jumping makes the game better but at the same time it is literally distracting to me personally when everybody is doing it compulsively (kind of like your animated gif signature as I type this lol). I would actually like to be wrong or for this to change over time. Barring that I'd like to have a solution other than not playing ARR. This is what testing is for and I hope we can all come to a consensus.

Still pretty meh at the moment. Graphics still look very dull and washed out.. Have the npc's not been added yet, its a pretty lifeless looking world at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupster

Thank you. I think jumping makes the game better but at the same time it is literally distracting to me personally when everybody is doing it compulsively (kind of like your animated gif signature as I type this lol). I would actually like to be wrong or for this to change over time. Barring that I'd like to have a solution other than not playing ARR. This is what testing is for and I hope we can all come to a consensus.

---

Perhaps you could make a free company consisting of people who don't like "compulsive" jumping. Then you could rally together and go around all the fences and rocks and things that get in the way that are otherwise trivial! (I know you're not completely against jumping, just a joke)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sartori

Still pretty meh at the moment. Graphics still look very dull and washed out.. Have the npc's not been added yet, its a pretty lifeless looking world at the moment.

---

Yea it looks terrrrrrible~
Seriously?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sartori

Still pretty meh at the moment. Graphics still look very dull and washed out.. Have the npc's not been added yet, its a pretty lifeless looking world at the moment.

---

I theorized earlier that they might not have added global lighting to the world yet, since this might be too time consuming to compute for a world in progress, but now I remember that YoshiP was asked directly about this and he didn't say anything that would indicate the lighting needs to be finalized.

I'm really hoping he thought the question was something like "The mood of the areas seems to be too happy" not what I think was meant which is "The lighting in the game engine seems to be incomplete."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zoloe

Yea it looks terrrrrrible~
Seriously?

---

He is referring to the washed out areas that should have shading that are prevalent in the background, especially in the distance. Ambient occlusion seems to make things look OK close up, but in the distance there is almost no global lighting at all and everything blends together. Look in the distance at 50 seconds into the video.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zoloe

Perhaps you could make a free company consisting of people who don't like "compulsive" jumping. Then you could rally together and go around all the fences and rocks and things that get in the way that are otherwise trivial! (I know you're not completely against jumping, just a joke)

---

We would be firmly rooted in our principles. We will stand together and calmly circumnavigate any problem. Our motto will be "The floor is NOT made out of lava" and "You do not just JUMP into Mordor". Only those who are allergic to popcorn need apply!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupster

I theorized earlier that they might not have added global lighting to the world yet, since this might be too time consuming to compute for a world in progress, but now I remember that YoshiP was asked directly about this and he didn't say anything that would indicate the lighting needs to be finalized.

I'm really hoping he thought the question was something like "The mood of the areas seems to be too happy" not what I think was meant which is "The lighting in the game engine seems to be incomplete."


He is referring to the washed out areas that should have shading that are prevalent in the background, especially in the distance. Ambient occlusion seems to make things look OK close up, but in the distance there is almost no global lighting at all and everything blends together. Look in the distance at 50 seconds into the video.

---

Exactly:) Somebody gets it

I love the new look, the fact that the areas are filled with 'stuff' instead of being empty.

But the key is going to be - does that stuff represent content? The game can look and feel like the nicest game ever but unless its stuffed with compelling content.....

Here's hoping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shane239

Just let me play the alpha already :P

---

Have to agree - I can't wait to hopefully try Alpha, everything I see makes waiting even more difficult.

The music and ambient sounds remind me of the nature CDs I own (Dan Gibson's Solitudes). The South Shroud's music reminds me of the "Garden in Provence" or "The English Country Garden" tracks. This game and the video is a DEFINITE plus for me!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupster

Jump jump jump jump jump jump.

Jumping seems to serve almost no purpose except to make me wonder why somebody is jumping. I was going to wait to complain until I saw how nervous players would be, but after seeing the Live Letter and now even this video where the PR rep can't keep from jumping, I must say that I really hate the jumping. It is really distracting. It looks bad (one should jump differently if one is running vs. standing still). It also seems like it will actually be unneeded to actually get anywhere.

The jumping needs to be fixed.

---

Those that didnt want jump at all are all saying "I told you so" with all the random bunny hopping; me included. Seeing that Live Letter where everyone was jumping just because was so annoying and this video where the Mithra, I mean Mi'Qote, jumped 5 times just before that bridge had me wondering what all the jumping was for.

I now laugh to myself thinking they all have a serious case of ants in their pants ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bittereye

Those that didnt want jump at all are all saying "I told you so" with all the random bunny hopping; me included. Seeing that Live Letter where everyone was jumping just because was so annoying and this video where the Mithra, I mean Mi'Qote, jumped 5 times just before that bridge had me wondering what all the jumping was for.

I now laugh to myself thinking they all have a serious case of ants in their pants ;)

---

I don't agree with your post, but its Miqo'te.

Hyrstmill (ハーストミル）　looks so much better and like a real outpost now. I wonder how the defenses in the new hamlets will be.

And I am really glad that the map isn't all instantly revealed anymore. Was one of the first complaints about maps lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bittereye

Those that didnt want jump at all are all saying "I told you so" with all the random bunny hopping; me included. Seeing that Live Letter where everyone was jumping just because was so annoying and this video where the Mithra, I mean Mi'Qote, jumped 5 times just before that bridge had me wondering what all the jumping was for.

I now laugh to myself thinking they all have a serious case of ants in their pants ;)

---

It looked like Popcorn! I do like being able to jump for the fact i wont be getting stuck on a little rock or having to walk around a random chunk of fence in the middle of nowhere. the novelty will wear off after a while. its useful and there for those who want it.

New rule. Any thread that mentions jump gets immediately ignored. I think that might be a good way to stop embarassing ourselves in front of the rest of the MMO community that doesn't have this insane obsession that a small but extremely loud portion of FFXIV players do. Get over it already, jeez.

As for the video, I love everything about it except the video's quality. I can't wait to see some other regions.

Im kinda tired of seeing only the Shroud... i want to see a little bit of the rest of the world :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KamikazeMan

I absolutely love this! However, I do have some problems with it as well:

The areas, while populated with NPCs, feel...dead. Empty. I'm not talking about the lack of players, but the lack of things going on with NPCs. They just stand there not doing anything. I wish they would have voice clips that loop, do some gestures......something. They can have merchants say something like "Come one come all! I have wares for sale!" every 5 minutes or so or that guild leve NPC say "Dare to take up the challenge, adventurer?". Throw in some kids running around playing tag, throwing rocks at each other, animals roaming around, rodents sneaking into houses, people arguing (with voices), etc. Those are just ideas.

I also really can't stand these new animations. They feel so generic. The animations XIV has now make my character and all of the characters feel more life like. It's like they are putting so much detail into everything but the animations.

I hate to complain because I get that SE has put a tremendous amount of work into re-launching XIV.

---

I noticed this too, however I am leery to request such a feature! Ever play Everquest II? They had this and it got so annoying NPC's would jump, holler, and yell to get your attention everytime you traversed to another area! You leave come back to the same area and the same NPC would do the same thing over and over.

Maybe it's just a matter of adjusting the timing, or using it sparingly in an area instead of having ALL NPC's do it. but when ppl mention stuff like this I cringe because that is all I can think about is how annoying it was to have all the NPC's yelling at you when you enter an area! lol

Now an interesting dynamic would be have this tied to fame/reputation! As you do more for a faction or area the more attention you get from the NPC's and they ask for your help directly!