[dev 1021] [Suggestion] Please consider this SP loss system for Death

I miss the loss of XP in FFXI. It made dying suck that much more, and added an emotional level that is missing in this game. I never though I would say this, but I want the XP loss system to come back. When I got attacked, or attacked, I thought about it more, I planned my stratagy more, I feared dying MORE. I don't fear dying in the current system, and I can keep throwing myself at the mob untill it dies with little consequence. When a mob aggroed me that was stronger than I was, I ran, but while I ran, I was tense about dying. The death penalty brings in stress, fear, and anguish. But a greater sense of accomplishment/victory when you just barely survive by 1 hp. Do you remember that exhilerating feeling. I dont get these feelings from FFXIV.

Please, Bring back the Death Penalty.

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Originally Posted by Gasper

I miss the loss of XP in FFXI. It made dying suck that much more, and added an emotional level that is missing in this game. I never though I would say this, but I want the XP loss system to come back. When I got attacked, or attacked, I thought about it more, I planned my stratagy more, I feared dying MORE. I don't fear dying in the current system, and I can keep throwing myself at the mob untill it dies with little consequence. When a mob aggroed me that was stronger than I was, I ran, but while I ran, I was tense about dying. The death penalty brings in stress, fear, and anguish. But a greater sense of accomplishment/victory when you just barely survive by 1 hp. Do you remember that exhilerating feeling. I dont get these feelings from FFXIV.

Please, Bring back the Death Penalty.

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I didn't get those feelings you are talking about. The only thing I got from xp loss was being forced to go grind back xp instead of doing things that were fun.

I would much rather a 'Debuff' spell if you die too many times which you can pay an NPC to get rid of.

AND armour durability is fine.

xp loss, no point, just made have to level 5k more. really just a time thing

I'm pretty disappointed about how a lot people think a bit of exp loss or sp loss is a bad addition to the game. While I also don't enjoy losing exp or sp upon death, it is a good mechanic to make the game more satisfying when you do succeed. And it is something which has been introduced in many games before. It will make people think before acting like a bunch lemmings and confronting the enemy head-on without much thought.
It will make you learn from your mistakes!

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Originally Posted by Thsscks

I'm pretty disappointed about how a lot people think a bit of exp loss or sp loss is a bad addition to the game. While I also don't enjoy losing exp or sp upon death, it is a good mechanic to make the game more satisfying when you do succeed. And it is something which has been introduced in many games before. It will make people think before acting like a bunch lemmings and confronting the enemy head-on without much thought.
It will make you learn from your mistakes!

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With harsh death penalty you still end up attacking hard NMs like lemmings until you learn what strategy works just like you do now. Only right now you don't need to stop because everyone has de-leveled. You can just keep trying and learning until you get it right. While I admit it might add to yours and some other's satisfaction when you succeed it does not have the same effect on a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

With harsh death penalty you still end up attacking hard NMs like lemmings until you learn what strategy works just like you do now. Only right now you don't need to stop because everyone has de-leveled. You can just keep trying and learning until you get it right. While I admit it might add to yours and some other's satisfaction when you succeed it does not have the same effect on a lot of people.

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Yea well NM are difficult just so your satisfaction will be great and you actually having the feeling of just having survived a tough battle.
Why do you think it's just a matter of luck, I think strategy could be a big role in this so you won't have to die like a lemming.
And I read from a Dev note that you won't level or rank down because of exp or sp loss.
And the implementation of exp and or sp loss doesn't mean the system will automatically be harsh, that depends on the percentage of loss. And I think the people working at SE know great losses of exp or sp per death won't add much to anyone's enjoyment of the game.

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Originally Posted by Thsscks

Yea well NM are difficult just so your satisfaction will be great and you actually having the feeling of just having survived a tough battle.
Why do you think it's just a matter of luck, I think strategy could be a big role in this so you won't have to die like a lemming.
And I read from a Dev note that you won't level or rank down because of exp or sp loss.
And the implementation of exp and or sp loss doesn't mean the system will automatically be harsh, that depends on the percentage of loss. And I think the people working at SE know great losses of exp or sp per death won't add much to anyone's enjoyment of the game.

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Even though the NMs we have now are easy they are harder and take some strategy to kill and are satisfying to take down and that satisfaction would not be made any greater by the addition of a death penalty.The only thing that would add to my satisfaction is if they added NMs that were much harder ans challenging than the ones we have now. Nowhere in my post did I mention luck when it comes to learning the strategy for killing NMs in either system. Also if there is no level/rank down then the sp/xp loss doesn't change anything since your likely rank 50 sitting at 100k sp tnl if you're hunting NMs etc.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Even though the NMs we have now are easy they are harder and take some strategy to kill and are satisfying to take down and that satisfaction would not be made any greater by the addition of a death penalty.The only thing that would add to my satisfaction is if they added NMs that were much harder ans challenging than the ones we have now. Nowhere in my post did I mention luck when it comes to learning the strategy for killing NMs in either system. Also if there is no level/rank down then the sp/xp loss doesn't change anything since your likely rank 50 sitting at 100k sp tnl if you're hunting NMs etc.

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So why do you still don't want them to add it even if aren't having any disadvantages from it aside from a temporary debuff? And btw a sp loss would still affect you if you weren't rank 50 for that discpline.
It isn't really such an uncommon mechanic to add. It's better than a loss of durability on your equipped items and has more meaning than a temporary debuff.
And really don't you get more satisfaction from completing a tough task when the stakes are high?
Like with gambling, do you get the same satisfaction when you win by going all in with all the money you have than when you just bet 5 dollars (assuming 5 dollars isn't all you have)?
The same is with games, they are more satisfying and involving when you can actually lose something you worked quite a bit for.
It's dull if a temporary debuff is all you get, which you can easily avoid the annoyance of by just doing something else for a couple minutes.

People do not play a game to have their time wasted. This is an absolutely abysmal suggestion and should not be considered at all.

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Originally Posted by Thsscks

So why do you still don't want them to add it even if aren't having any disadvantages from it aside from a temporary debuff? And btw a sp loss would still affect you if you weren't rank 50 for that discpline.
It isn't really such an uncommon mechanic to add. It's better than a loss of durability on your equipped items and has more meaning than a temporary debuff.
And really don't you get more satisfaction from completing a tough task when the stakes are high?
Like with gambling, do you get the same satisfaction when you win by going all in with all the money you have than when you just bet 5 dollars (assuming 5 dollars isn't all you have)?
The same is with games, they are more satisfying and involving when you can actually lose something you worked quite a bit for.
It's dull if a temporary debuff is all you get, which you can easily avoid the annoyance of by just doing something else for a couple minutes.

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No the risk vs reward system has no effect on me or my enjoyment. Not even when gambling. When playing Black Jack and roulette I tend to change the odds so they are in my favor and I feel pretty damn good taking the Casino's money. I don't doubt that a harsher death penalty makes it feel better for you and some others but there are just as many that don't feel the same way as you.

I'd rather Lose SP/EXP than have to spend time repairing gear.

AXE Durability, get it outta there.

Why? Cause I can fix my SP/EXP loss by fighting instead of snoozing while trying my hardest to level up 4 crafts to support my fickle gaming nature (wanting to level every class there is that's not /snooze crafting).


OR!!!!

Stop being silly and merge these crafts. GLD/ARM/Blacksmith= Metalurgist etc..

I personally won't take this game seriously until the durability system is gone or completely addressed by lowering the level it takes to repair all gear to 15. Give crafters other means of making gil by putting awesome enhancements on current existing weapons, customizing them in other ways etc; adding +'s to them.

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

I'd rather Lose SP/EXP than have to spend time repairing gear.

AXE Durability, get it outta there.

Why? Cause I can fix my SP/EXP loss by fighting instead of snoozing while trying my hardest to level up 4 crafts to support my fickle gaming nature (wanting to level every class there is that's not /snooze crafting).


OR!!!!

Stop being silly and merge these crafts. GLD/ARM/Blacksmith= Metalurgist etc..

I personally won't take this game seriously until the durability system is gone or completely addressed by lowering the level it takes to repair all gear to 15. Give crafters other means of making gil by putting awesome enhancements on current existing weapons, customizing them in other ways etc; adding +'s to them.

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Do we take durability loss on death? I thought it was from use only.

I am for SP loss from death. It should be % based somewhere around 5%. I also support the idea of buying it back. However i propose this:

We don't buy it back with gil OR anima.

Instead, you begin to collect guild marks at a much earlier level then we do now. You then can choose to spend guild marks at the guild to buy back lost sp. Keep all the abilities/traits at 20+, but make reclaiming sp available to any rank, even members too low to join the guild.

edit : this would most likely call for a change in receiving guild marks (more often but less at a time maybe?)

It seems like I am a little late to the discussion of this thread considering no one has responded in 9 days or so, but that has never stopped me from starting up a debate again...

That being said, I think that the current death penalty system just is not interesting enough. I die, have a few minutes of weakness and I am good to go. No big deal, I can grab a drink and come back when its over.

I think that a new process should be implemented that is similar to that "'ol injury I got back in '72." You die, and a doctor "moogle" shows up and says something along the line of "I tried my best but I could not fix your injury at x location. You will have to deal with the pain for quite some time." Then for the next 30 minutes or so, you have like a bum knee that causes you to be unable to move for a few seconds. This injury would occur randomly during that time frame.

This could be expanded so that the more times you die, the more "war wounds" you have. For instance you could get a bad shoulder, causing you to miss an attack randomly or a bad back that would cause you to paralyze in pain. The final injury could be a head wound, that would cause periodic blindness, confusion, etc.

I think that this could definitely add some laughs to the battle scene.

Any thoughts?

Seeing how the casual dislike this idea how about this

When you die you get 1mil gil, You get 50 rank point which you can use to level up any class. Oh and if you die 10times under 1mil you get 1 rare item in the game :)

All joking aside i pretty much give up hope trying to come up with idea that casual and hardcore can enjoy Casual are too hard headed ppl and hardcore well you know there hardcore ppl lol.

Very true Zenaku, it pretty much is impossible to please everyone. There is always going to be someone that doesn't like a particular aspect of a game or in life for that matter.

Hmm the way I see it, we have two choices now... Grab a "decider" (George Bush anyone?) that makes the choices for us or flip a coin to see which side to join for a particular aspect.

If extremism is the way to go, I guess genocide would work as well... but that seems like a vicious cycle - annihilate the haters for a particular aspect... then you have the people complaining about that, which you would then have to exterminate, etc, etc.

Honestly as a casual player, I could care less if there was a death penalty or not... pretty much apathetic on it, with the exception of de-leveling as that would just piss me off. Get a new ability and then have it taken away??? Sounds like a complete tease if you ask me.

No thanks.

First of all, DoL/DoH would be totally screwed for it since they're trying not to fight anyways and can't really fight and they have a harder time leveling up due to numerous materials required for DoH and the lack of G5 nodes for some of the DoL.

Second, if you lose 5-10% of your SP (or XP?) you're losing more than you would likely have obtained from that monster. That's bad design, losing more than you gain. It'd be especially annoying considering how many mobs during levequests in mid-level areas are interspersed with the normal monsters (such as those damn Level 30+ goats near Camp Horizon!) It'd be even worse during the Easter event if they're all like this, since sometimes random high level aggro monsters are waiting for you around corners in caves (I died like this twice looking for Spriggans near Camp Horizon :( Stupid level 40 aggro bomb)

Third, there's no reason for it. There are much better ways to penalize players for dying, such as durability loss on equipment (perhaps lower the normal rate of durability loss and increase loss from death to 10-20%?), loss of shards for DoH, increased duration of weakness (5+ minutes), loss of gil...how about solo death for Levequests is auto-failure and you can't be revived without skills if in a Party during levequests? Also lower the levequest timer for Battlecraft; I usually take 3-5 minutes for them, even if they're Rank 20 (I'm Rank 16) and I always wonder why there's 30 minutes if I can solo it in a sixth of the time (maybe 6 minutes per Star?)

ANYWAYS...the point is that losing SP/EXP for dying feels awful and even if you can buy it back, especially with Anima, it feels horrible and there isn't much of a redeeming factor...and a lot of the time, deaths don't occur from your own mistakes unless you're very clearly wandering around in an area levels higher than you. Anima already takes way too long to regenerate and adding it as an option to buy back SP/EXP would make it even more...I don't know the word for it...terrible feeling, I guess? As for the buyback with gil option, gil is too abundant so if it was too little it wouldn't be a penalty at all and if it was "just right" for higher levels, lower level players wouldn't be able to afford it. Tacked onto that, Ranks 20-50 are already an incredibly slow grind...I think what the game doesn't need is a way for it to take away your hard work and have you grind it all back again (because face it, the game is a long grind right now).

EDIT: Or if you want to be a jerk about it, you could make it automatically have that class jump to the next threshold.

Die 1x: lose 5-10% sp and the same (number not % exp). This can be recovered via killing monsters.
2x (while weakened): More sp loss, gil loss.
3x: If you are in a party the other members can loot a random piece of your gear for the inconvenience you are causing them.
4x: Your lose your character. It is put up for auction to someone who can play it properly, since you obviously can't.

I'm being somewhat facetious here, but I do think there should be sp loss. As for crafters who die on the way to a leve, you should be traveling on a DoW class anyway. The story line quests need to go to hard fights that require a party, anyway, so you would need to have at least one DoW class leveled. I personally don't think leveling crafts to 50 when your highest fighting class is R2 should be a completely viable option. If someone wants to do that in a monster killing based game, the devs shouldn't go out of their way to make it convenient.

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Originally Posted by Yikghigi

It seems like I am a little late to the discussion of this thread considering no one has responded in 9 days or so, but that has never stopped me from starting up a debate again...

That being said, I think that the current death penalty system just is not interesting enough. I die, have a few minutes of weakness and I am good to go. No big deal, I can grab a drink and come back when its over.

I think that a new process should be implemented that is similar to that "'ol injury I got back in '72." You die, and a doctor "moogle" shows up and says something along the line of "I tried my best but I could not fix your injury at x location. You will have to deal with the pain for quite some time." Then for the next 30 minutes or so, you have like a bum knee that causes you to be unable to move for a few seconds. This injury would occur randomly during that time frame.

This could be expanded so that the more times you die, the more "war wounds" you have. For instance you could get a bad shoulder, causing you to miss an attack randomly or a bad back that would cause you to paralyze in pain. The final injury could be a head wound, that would cause periodic blindness, confusion, etc.

I think that this could definitely add some laughs to the battle scene.

Any thoughts?

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This is a good idea.

@ Zenaku
Just stop trying to say that only Casuals dislike harsh death penalties. I spend far too much time playing to be considered a casual and yet I am not in favor of the harsh death penalty. It's just a straw man. You're better than that.

one thing most of you havent considered is this game isnt built like FF, monsters can and will kill you, they expect you to dust yourself off, an fight again. Adding real difficulty to this game, also has to contain abilities which can kill you, FF has always had skills which could probably own you (doom 5) skills that take you to 1 hp, etc. Now, most people will never use content, or complain about content which takes away their progress. Like in ffxi, most people were pansies until they reached level cap.

The answer to making the game more challenging is having more skills, which if handled wrong can lead to death, also making it so that deaths really increase the chance of a wipe. This is more counterproductive if people are afraid to fight that content, unless the reward is extremely high, people will take the safer route. People will kill crabs that take longer to fight and have simple patterns rather than beastmen who have less hp, but are more difficult much like in ffxi.

You are not improving the game by encouraging pansified play.

In a game that is already excessively shot-through with time-sinks(cumbersome battle, no personal transportation beyond anima in a huge, dull world, menus upon menus, tedious crafting, numbing grinding) I don't think it's in the best interest of SE to be giving another reason not to play the game. Too many deaths occur by accident, so forming a just punishment is silly. The whole argument of 'It will make people better players" is ridiculous, it will make people ex-players and SE doesn't want that obviously. If all you die-hards are so torn up about not being penalized, next time you die in-game, go grind sp on your R50 job for four hours and just imagine you were penalized.

Square should really be focusing on turning this game into something enjoyable--not trying to rekindle some nostalgia. Harsh death penalties that stop people from playing is absurd to me, dying on an NM, having to wait on weakness and run back to find a rival LS has taken your claim is punishment enough.

Please no more things to make this game look any worse than it already does in the eyes of the word. No more punishment for playing or trying new things... NO EXP/SP LOSS PLS!

SP loss...no thank you!

please bing back a penalty for death. This game is entirely too easy already, ffs.

They might as well just have npcs in town handing out a random amount of gil every game day. It's already little more than that anyway.

No challanges left at all are there?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Update EDIT: If the idea above seems too much for some, I would like to add support to an idea that Clawfury came up with:

While Weakness is in effect, you will gain no SP/XP. Otherwise, the system stays the same.

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That I don't mind. However, LOSING SP... That would be a big no from me.

We should get xp/sp death penalties with different tiers of raise which can recover different amount of xp/sp like FFXI. Right now when you see others dying you'd just keep going because they'd instantly respawn thus you don't even feel the need to help out. In FFXI, when you or your entire PT wipes, you'd look around (or even /tell a friend) hoping someone could come raising the group, which totally helped building relationships with others especially those who took the trouble (and risk) just to come clear the mobs and raise you.