Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

But those negatives are all but forgotten because of the aforementioned moments of awesome. Unfortunately, Dawntrail doesn't really have one of those moments per-se. The final boss might have been one if not for the limelight being redirected to Wuk Lamat. I might have said that the 'Vrtra to the Rescue' cutscene might qualify.... but since it was an Endwalker character, and they played Endwalker music, I think that cutscene relies too heavily on nostalgia.

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The entire expansion tries to play the Nostalgia card. "Remember the Vanu?! Remember the Goblins?! Remember the Great Serpent of Ronka?! Remember all these things and moments from past expansions that you loved?!" Hell, there is an actual NPC called Nostalgia...

See, the problem with reminding us of the enjoyable moments that came before, is that it also highlights that there are almost no moments like that in DT that don't have to milk nostalgia. All it managed to do is go "Hey! Remember when the game DIDN'T suck ass? Too bad. Here's more Wuk Lamat."

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Originally Posted by Isala

The entire expansion tries to play the Nostalgia card. "Remember the Vanu?! Remember the Goblins?! Remember the Great Serpent of Ronka?! Remember all these things and moments from past expansions that you loved?!" Hell, there is an actual NPC called Nostalgia...

See, the problem with reminding us of the enjoyable moments that came before, is that it also highlights that there are almost no moments like that in DT that don't have to milk nostalgia. All it managed to do is go "Hey! Remember when the game DIDN'T suck ass? Too bad. Here's more Wuk Lamat."

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That, and also some very obvious attempt at compensating, or at least that's what I think. Y'stohla have a pretty big simp club, but never once it feels they're trying to force her character in your face. Whether with Wuk it could be the writer know the conceived a shallow characters so they try to compensate with a make believe attempt, hoping to ... idk - "trick" the players into buying it? Would it explain why every other NPCs suddenly lose all their personality to join Wuk's cheerleading squad.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

That, and also some very obvious attempt at compensating, or at least that's what I think. Y'stohla have a pretty big simp club, but never once it feels they're trying to force her character in your face. Whether with Wuk it could be the writer know the conceived a shallow characters so they try to compensate with a make believe attempt, hoping to ... idk - "trick" the players into buying it? Would it explain why every other NPCs suddenly lose all their personality to join Wuk's cheerleading squad.

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There is no singular moment in the expansion that highlights Wuk's effect on every other character better than her kidnapping. As soon as she's out of focus, we see competency, we see the same characters we've grown to know and love, shining in their specific roles. Seeing Thancred, with all his espionage skills on full display was a treat. Being treated as the muscle we are, as we baited out that guy and his goons. That was great. And the VERY SECOND we untie that stupid cat, every single character in that same cutscene immediately loses 90% of their personality.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

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While I don't necessarily disagree, the primary issue, as has been covered several times over in the varying threads in the forum, is the writing.

The entire story is focused on Wuk Lamat, her journey and her perspectives as she pursues her desire to become the Dawnservant.

The reason why the sidequests worked and the main story did not is a myriad of technical writing issues. To break them down, the writer(s) wished to focus on a central figure, to make said figure likeable and the only way they knew how to do this was to have everything revolve around them.

The narrative often refuses to engage with, give ample time to, and create character dynamics with the travelling party because, as I mentioned before, the writers may be insecure or egoistic in their beliefs of the players needing to/liking their protagonist. This is merely speculation of course.

Because of the inherent need to have a new "marketable" character, the writer(s) failed to understand what makes a narrative compelling.

Yes, we like to see characters grow and develop, we like to see them succeed. We also like to see how they engage with others and the world around them. Erenville being native to Tural and a "close friend" to Wuk Lamat is barely explored because the narrative is far too concerned with making sure that Wuk Lamat can be a 'tour guide' as well as cultural ambassador, comedy relief and, super powerful badass.

She is attempting to fulfill all the driving factors of each narrative, and when she isn't, her presence is mandated in some shape or form.

For example, Shaolaani's small sidequest is primarily focused on Wuk Lamat's nurse maid's bracelet being stolen, one that was graciously gifted to her by Wuk Lamat. We have little time to learn about the people of Shaolaani and their culture before and after.

This is because the narrative refuses to give any sort of space to the other characters for them to speak about the world, the people, and engage with others outside of trying to further the development of Wuk Lamat.

The sidequests were facilitated by the WOL because we need to be there to experience the events (and for gameplay purposes) however, the stories are self-contained and focus on the main characters who have, more or less, equal amounts of screen time to converse, reflect and engage with all parties. The focus is distributed evenly to the development of all (the two NPCs grow as characters, we learn more about the world and develop connections to these people).

Characters are allowed to reflect on what they learned, to speak their theories to others. It becomes an issue when the only information that is commented on is solely for the purpose of attempting to reinforce a character's behaviours/personality/ideologies/"""development"" (which happens far too frequently in Dawntrail).

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Originally Posted by RabendaShin

This post will contain spoilers for the Dawntrail MSQ.

I am about to finish my Dawntrail MSQ experience, and am reflecting upon the story told. There will be paraphrasing, so do correct me if I am absolutely incorrect in what I remember from the story.

An MMORPG needs to railroad the player character for plot reasons or mechanical ones, but in previous story experiences it all seemed relatively natural. There were always good reasons to do the things we needed to do, even if we didn't agree with them. We were also able to voice that disagreement, albeit in limited means.
FFXIV has never been a game about meaningful choices (we are mere actors in a grand play), yet somehow this is the first time playing where I feel an absolute disconnect with my character and the choices presented for her to take.

The time this disconnect hit me hardest was when Wuk Lamat asked me to refer to her as "lamaty'i", a term of endearment reserved for family. I had not particularly enjoyed much of my time glued to the third promise, so I opted to respond with the usually delightful "..." option expecting at least a somewhat snide comment. Instead, one of the Scions, a character I care for and trust, informs Wuk my character is "at a loss for words" for being asked this...[chopped due to character limit]

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While I don't agree with every point here, I definitely agree with the feeling of disconnect. Although for me it comes at one of the weirdest points: Urqopacha, when we're confronting those Yok Hoy who are not aligned with Gulool Ja Ja. And again, in Living Memory. This has always *kind of* been a problem with the "why is the WoL just standing there?" moments, but it never really crept into the story in meaningful ways outside of that until now. This is kind of my biggest problem with Wuk Lamat too--not the character herself, but the fact that the story bends itself backwards to fit her ideals and prove her right even when common sense would dictate otherwise.

And the fact it makes us bend over backwards to do it too makes it kind of personal.

I once watched a film critic's take on this in "Anatomy of a Failure" for certain movies that fell flat, and in one of them, he mentions how a big failing of one movie was that the hero wasn't pushing the plot forward, the plot was pushing him forward, and it kind of feels the same way here.

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Originally Posted by Basteala

I once watched a film critic's take on this in "Anatomy of a Failure" for certain movies that fell flat, and in one of them, he mentions how a big failing of one movie was that the hero wasn't pushing the plot forward, the plot was pushing him forward, and it kind of feels the same way here.

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I studied literature and film, and I know that particular critic’s channel. I’m a big fan. You could say I view all media I take in through the lens of a film critic, and perhaps I am for that reason harsher and more analytical towards Dawntrail’s presentation. I’m certain more parallels can be found in that critic’s videos that would give more insight into what didn’t work in the writing.

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Originally Posted by Endy_Sinkai

I truly do not understand this whole idea people are coming up with that "this was Wuks story." No. Stop right there ✋️. Every single piece of marketing PR live letter fan fest ect ect said nothing about this being wuks journey.

This was always market since jump as OUR new adventure. So why In the name of bloody twelve am I the BG NPC?

There is a clear difference between 1.0-EW and DT. But at no point where we ever told during any part of the literal year from NA FF to DT launch that this was anything else besides OUR new chapter.

So if you feel lied to by yoshi P and the marketing team then good because you where and you are not a complete white knight simp for this sorry excuse of an msq.

Because had they told us even 1/100th of the truth of what this expansion was I bet no where near the same amount of people would have bought it.

This is the first time since 1.0's launch I genuinely feel lied to by the dev team and wish I could issue a full refund.

I cannot even bring myself to enjoy what content is there because I am primarily a story player and that is a complete mess.

Sorry I have been holding back since I beat the msq on day 3 of early access.

And honestly I wanted to explode with anger then. However I choose to sit on it and see how I felt.

It somehow has gotten even worse the more time I have sat with the story because now that the hype wore off and I can critically think about the story. There where soooooo many plot holes and horrible nonsense writing that its reminded me of season 8 of GOT levels of bad.

Sorry rant over

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I feel this so much. It makes me feel like we're now on She-Hulk levels of story-telling after Endgame. I can't even bring myself to go grind the ex trials or level other jobs because I just feel so shocked and disappointed.

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Originally Posted by RabendaShin

I studied literature and film, and I know that particular critic’s channel. I’m a big fan. You could say I view all media I take in through the lens of a film critic, and perhaps I am for that reason harsher and more analytical towards Dawntrail’s presentation. I’m certain more parallels can be found in that critic’s videos that would give more insight into what didn’t work in the writing.

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I wouldn't say harsher so much as "more articulate".

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Originally Posted by Iskra

I feel this so much. It makes me feel like we're now on She-Hulk levels of story-telling after Endgame. I can't even bring myself to go grind the ex trials or level other jobs because I just feel so shocked and disappointed.

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Real talk I've found a lot of the role quests and their characters (excluding caster) more interesting than Wuk Lamat's journey.

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Originally Posted by Basteala

Real talk I've found a lot of the role quests and their characters (excluding caster) more interesting than Wuk Lamat's journey.

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Real talk I felt more emotional about the Cornservant chain because Cornservant, while... a sentient corn cob... formed a strange yet fruitful partnership with the WoL, and made people's lives better in such small, simple ways.

It was a nice, pleasant departure from... whatever the MSQ was.

I'm very morbidly curious to see if they take the negative feedback to heart and change gears next expansion because whoa. :eek::confused:

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Originally Posted by Basteala

Real talk I've found a lot of the role quests and their characters (excluding caster) more interesting than Wuk Lamat's journey.

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Yes this so much. They are actually funny and had me chuckle instead of Wuk's lame seasickness joke that gets repeated a billion times or her cringe Tsundere scenes

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

Yes this so much. They are actually funny and had me chuckle instead of Wuk's lame seasickness joke that gets repeated a billion times or her cringe Tsundere scenes

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Even on their own merits, though. I find some of the characters more compelling in general, even though they have so much less time to tell their story. The Tank and Melee ones in particular come to mind.

The Caster Role quest kinda fell flat for me though.

The main character in the caster role quest is pretty forgettable, but even that one is a masterclass showcase of how to give a silent protagonist agency even outside token combat based gameplay.

Like just the simple hand motion to block another character from escalating a potential hostage situation? Why wasn't that in MSQ when the same scenario happens at least twice there? That would be the mentor thing to do.

I mean I've probably harped enough on this, but in the MSQ we are instead told to sit the fuck down by Wuk Lamat or Gulool Ja Ja or someone, apparently completely incapable of defying the last person who gave us an order. We are also constantly making ourselves look stupid by pulling a weapon and then doing nothing with it for aforementioned reason. Like even if you make WoL ridiculously passive, you could at least make it seem like it's their own choice not to interfere, you know? Not ideal but still a huge improvement from the lapdog portrayal we got.

I haven't done caster yet, but outside of liking the running gag with the Namazu and the arrows in the melee role quest, I wasn't that invested in the characters in the role storylines. The villains have some fun moments. But the protagonist charcters havne't been anything special imo.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I haven't done caster yet, but outside of liking the running gag with the Namazu and the arrows in the melee role quest, I wasn't that invested in the characters in the role storylines. The villains have some fun moments. But the protagonist charcters havne't been anything special imo.

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I actually liked the caster one.
Goofy? Yes.
But Tekepe was a nice character to hang around with a good mix of mentoring her and having her own personality, she was also cute as they come.

The antagonist was also quite funny. Maybe sometimes a bit too much but even the in game characters didn’t take him too serious.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

I actually liked the caster one.
Goofy? Yes.
But Tekepe was a nice character to hang around with a good mix of mentoring her and having her own personality, she was also cute as they come.

The antagonist was also quite funny. Maybe sometimes a bit too much but even the in game characters didn’t take him too serious.

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I've only completed the Healer and Caster role quests, and am making my way with melee dps. All the quests are goofy in a sense, but not annoyingly so. Take for example the huntress not being able to shoot the bow and blaming it on whatever, with the arrows always landing near a poor Namazu. The Namazu gag also didn't feel out of place, it's a sidequest after all. For the caster, the falling rocks and hubris of the antagonist did become tiresomem but it still tried to mix it up. Bonus: Tepeke had more development over 4 quests than Wuk Lamat got to have in 21 hours of MSQ.

I'd add to that that the introduction of the league of 'villains' we're dealing with had an amazingly well-written introduction, immediately grabbing my attention and making me want to delve into it. What's better is that, while cartoon villain in their motives, the baddies had their reasons - be it mischief, or desiring adoration. That's the low stakes I expected to be present in Dawntrail more.

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Originally Posted by xirune

IDK, I feel like Shadowbringers is consistently pretty fantastic all the way through. Yeah, it's got great highs, but any lows are very minor and it's still absolutely filled with fantastic moments that aren't just "big awesome" ones. When I think of Shadowbringers, I don't just think of the epic scenes against Emet at the end, I think of the really haunting and moody opening sequence, going to the library to learn about the First and the librarian showing us those gorgeous illustrations, the beautiful music and mood of entering each zone for the first time with Ardbert's melancholy narration, all the funny and delightful moments with all the different fey creatures in Il Mheg, the beautiful scene where we watch the Night's Blessed hold a funeral, Y'shtola asking Urianger to describe the night sky, all the moments of Emet-Selch tagging along with us and the way the other characters bounce off him, Lyna falling to the ground after a battle and cursing her inability to save everyone, the Exarch leaving sandwiches for the WoL, Alisaie yelling at the other Scions that they can't promise that they'll figure out how to fix the WoL's light corruption, the scene where we talk to the shade of Hythlodaeus in Amaurot, every conversation with Ardbert... the list could go on. Point is, it's not just memories of the big epic moments blocking out a bunch of meh stuff. The whole thing is great, including - especially, even - the quieter moments. (And all the stuff with Ran'jit you mentioned doesn't really bother me... like, I guess I can see what you're saying, but I've just never had an issue with the way that character was done.)

Endwalker I think definitely does have some proper lows, but it still has a lot of very good quieter moments in it as well IMO, not just big moments.

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Absolutely agree with all points. I'm simply saying that whilst it was excellent - arguably the best expansion we've had - it wasn't absolutely perfect. But that's just my view, resulting from the fact that I didn't enjoy anything about Ran'jit; I maintain the opinion that he felt shoehorned into the story, was poorly explained, and remained around longer than was necessary (again - he should've been defeated by Thancred and served no purpose following that fight).

Eitherway, I also maintain my point that Dawntrail didn't really have a standout moment like both Shadowbringers and Endwalker did. As said in my earlier post, it tried to, but ruined the moment by moving the spotlight.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

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More than that, Shadowbringers actively tried to have 'downtime' moments and delineated mini-arcs by sending you back to rest up. Dawntrail felt like it was constantly trying to one-up itself, while Shadowbringers felt like it was trying to spread the emotional highs out a little.

Characters got time to shine in their own ways, too. The Exarch was first, then you meet Alisaie and Alphinaud in their particular courses and work with them in ways that make sense given their character. Thancred you meet up with serving the role he always has- protecting Minfilia- but now there's a twist to it. Urianger's brought forward into the spotlight a little from the relatively background/secondary position he'd taken prior and allowed to show his smarts. Y'shtola has her own sort of stuff going on (She's often narratively neglected but there's... not a lot to do with her, in a lot of ways.)

In each case though, while still present, characters who'd been introduced back into the plot moved back a step or two to allow others to take position at the fore. There were times when the Exarch was the prominent character, other times the Twins or Thancred or Minfilia/Ryne. Even Emet, darling of the expac, actively moved in and out of the plot as necessary and while he moved it, he was not always on-screen hogging your attention. He introduces himself, then leaves. He arrives to discuss things from time to time. He gives you a hand when Y'shtola Flows herself again. He's a theater kid, for sure, but he knows when to exit stage right and left to give the characters- in-story- their own breathing room to interact and analyze what he's saying, and to give you as a player a *break* from him to interact with others. Even if you dislike Emet-Selch, you can't argue that he wasn't nearly as pervasive, prevalent, or all-consuming as Wuk Lamat was. Even with his grandest display in Amaurot, he gave you the space to explore and experience the city itself. He wasn't hanging over your shoulder going on and on and on, he was off with the Exarch and hence off-screen. It wasn't just showing Amaurot, but showing Amaurot as remembered by Emet, granting insight into the character without him standing there going 'I loved my people because they were friendly and polite!'.

Hell, the standout moment of Amaurot for some people basically takes place at the DMV because the story was willing to restrain itself when it needed to. Just a scene where you have a polite, earnest conversation with the shade of someone who just wants to talk for a while. That's all it was, and because the story wasn't beating you over the head with Emet's persona, it worked.

There was a willingness to let characters have their own stories and resolutions, even if in some cases- as you mentioned with Ran'jit- that ended up a bit bungled.