When are we as player going to demand from SE a better MSQ experience

The "Lets split up" storybeats. Turned out to be WoL and Wuk Lamat go do something while everyone else does something else. What is saving this MSQ is the encounter design which is a breath of fresh air.

But sadly job design and this MSQ is bringing Dawntrail down.

Dawntrails MSQ would be easier to stomach if all the cutscenes were fully animated and voice acted. Especially the first half which is basically a visual novel

I think, for me, this games main problem with regards to its story telling is that it tells virtually all of the story through cutscenes. I would love it if they told the same stories but actually let you play the game while doing so. Make it interactive for the player. Someone mentioned earlier about the intro scene with the storm. In a game like wow we would be actually playing the game, on the ship and doing things like plugging holes, bailing water, helping stabilize the wounded and fighting off sea monsters that washed aboard. In this game we just get told in a cutscene about how great our character is...boring. While reading that guys post I was reminded of my many times playing intros in WoW and how much better they are than this games. In the very first expansion, which came out like what 18 years ago, you are immediately tasked with fighting off monsters that have invaded a nearby mine, investigating the draenor orcs and destroying their siege weapons, and disrupting the burning legions efforts to assault the dark portal. Are any of these little stories as compelling as something like SHB? Of course not. But they are considerably more fun to play through (and far more interesting than watching wuk'lamat deal with alpacas.) I'm no fan of Blizzard these days (and haven't been for a long while) but I have to admit that they are miles ahead when it comes to making a fun leveling experience for their MMOs expansions.

In summary, I would love to see this game embrace smaller scale stories that have their stories told through gameplay rather than cutscenes. You can still do cutscenes for the big stuff but please let us actually play the game while...playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

as many time as threads like this coming up, i always wonder what is it you think they can do about?

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Mini-games like the First-Person Targeting sections, instanced battle sections, really anything the help break up the monotomy and have us interact a little with the world around us during quests.

For example, there's a quest early on in DT where you have to go around applying like resin or something to some poles for the HanuHanu. This is represented in-game by the bog-standard "interacting" progress bar while we do the mime-in-a-box motion. We do this 3 times in a row, then it's done.

If I were to ask for something more interesting, perhaps a mini-game where you are in first-person & actually apply the resin by clicking on spots indicated by a little icon. Nothing crazy, but it'd add just that little amount of interactivity. This is obviously just an example I'm pulling out of no-where, and some would likely just call this sort of thing tedious, but it'd be nice if the dev team used more mini-game templates to give us just a bit more interactivity in quests. And I wouldn't ask that it be EVERY quest, but sprinkled in here and there... A little goes a long way when you are running these quests back-to-back, and it can get old seeing the same ol' "interacting" progress bar and motions used over and over again.

Quest design is steaming dingo dung, has been since day 1. Before that even, in other games, it was also garbage. The difference is that other games would allow auto-pathing and afk combat mode. So I say fix the design or give us the brain-off feature to accompany the AWFUL and DISRESPECTFUL quest design.

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Originally Posted by BakoolJaJa

Nonsense. FF is not known for being some sort of visual novel series. FF games have a focus on story, yes, but the question is how said story is presented. And it's disingenuous to claim that other FF games lack gameplay. We went from turn based combat focused games with party management to mixed combat systems, to action combat focus, to something like FF7 Rebirth that is more minigame than story. FFXIV is really the odd one out in how 90% of the game is clicking through meaningless, repetitive dialogue and waiting out cutscenes that have 10 NPCs slowly nodding one by one and then slowly walking off the scene... one by one. Sorry, but no other FF game does anything like this.

The only one that maybe got closeish is ironically FF16. Because despite the flashy action combat, CBU3 still has some sort of issues figuring out how to put any real substance behind the cool stuff. So you yawn your way through all the glowy screen explosions and have to manage anger issues when the game constantly kills bosses for you once they reach 25% hp, because everything good must be a cutscene or something? But even ignoring FF16 issues (that I personally had, subjective and all, I'm not here to attack anyone's favorite game), at least there the combat still makes up more than 4% of the entire game.

Whereas FF14 sometimes feels like they are trying to copy the worst games gacha market has to offer. Yapfest on top of yapfest, constant repetition of what was said a minute ago, stupidly lengthy explanations of the most simplistic of concepts, etc. We could only dream of CBU3 taking a look at other FF games and copying some gameplay from them.

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EXACTLY.

Most golden age FF games started off by putting the player directly in the action. They didn't start off with mountains of text, mundane cutscenes, and lore exposition. They began at a critical moment as a way of getting you a taste of the gameplay while hooking you into the story and the world. FF7 started you off blowing up the Mako Reactor. Dawntrail starts off by giving you a history lesson on the journey of the Dawnservant.

When FF8 had a train setpiece, it made it interactive. When Dawntrail does it, it's just a cutscene! It being FF is not an excuse. CBU3 needs to learn to rely less on cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by RubyNights

EXACTLY.

Most golden age FF games started off by putting the player directly in the action. They didn't start off with mountains of text, mundane cutscenes, and lore exposition. They began at a critical moment as a way of getting you a taste of the gameplay while hooking you into the story and the world. FF7 started you off blowing up the Mako Reactor. Dawntrail starts off by giving you a history lesson on the journey of the Dawnservant.

When FF8 had a train setpiece, it made it interactive. When Dawntrail does it, it's just a cutscene! It being FF is not an excuse. CBU3 needs to learn to rely less on cutscenes.

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As much criticism as FFVIII receives (most of it deserved) the set-piece action in that game is incredible.

Yeah, VIII isn't even my favorite but it was interactive! lol

The interesting thing here is that they could actually extend, in a pretty big way, the time it takes to get through the MSQ (giving more player content) just by adding better gameplay content.

Now maybe the devs don't want to add a whole bunch of little mini-games, the way World of Warcraft does, but those kinds of little mini-game quests could just be added to become dailies, considering many of them could be fun.

I made a previous post that the Devs really should go and look at some of what WoW does with their question content; if they were to supplement these kinds of gameplay quests into what we have now, it could lead to such a better and richer questing experience for the player.

Truly, the questing "gameplay" needs to take a huge step forward in the next expansion... It's more than due time for this.

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Originally Posted by RubyNights

FF7 started you off blowing up the Mako Reactor. Dawntrail starts off by giving you a history lesson on the journey of the Dawnservant. When FF8 had a train setpiece, it made it interactive. When Dawntrail does it, it's just a cutscene! It being FF is not an excuse.

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When I was watching this cutscene, I thought the exact same thing. What a huge waste. This could have been such a cool interactive gameplay quest. This quest and others similar to it, could be implemented into the game in such a way that they could end up being used as dailies after. We ABSOLUTELY need more "gameplay" quests in the MSQ.

I hope Dawntrail brings this need to light finally.

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Originally Posted by Honalee

When I was watching this cutscene, I thought the exact same thing. What a huge waste. This could have been such a cool interactive gameplay quest. This quest and others similar to it, could be implemented into the game in such a way that they could end up being used as dailies after. We ABSOLUTELY need more "gameplay" quests in the MSQ.

I hope Dawntrail brings this need to light finally.

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Don't say that too loud! People are still complaining about "in from the cold" or the "this is Thancred" instance. Hells, people were malding over pre-nerf "Steps of Faith" being a bit of a challenge and requiring both cooperation, coordination and actually engaging with the mechanics of the instance.

Can't have gameplay potentially bar people from progressing, that is a big no no for this game - if people quit the game, they will never experience the story, so getting to the story needs to be as easy and straightforward as possible. Which is why some solo instances can be cleared without pressing a single button.

Its a shame, really.

I prefer this discussion over the Dawntrail story hate, like if you want a good parse of how bad the MSQ is , try replaying it. It's a drag to go through. You might pause at story moments you liked, but 90% of it is just fluff and padding.

8.0 can have a universally acclaimed story like Shadowbringers but if we keep this up I might as well watch it on youtube without having to pay 15$ a month.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Don't say that too loud! People are still complaining about "in from the cold" or the "this is Thancred" instance. Hells, people were malding over pre-nerf "Steps of Faith" being a bit of a challenge and requiring both cooperation, coordination and actually engaging with the mechanics of the instance.

Can't have gameplay potentially bar people from progressing, that is a big no no for this game - if people quit the game, they will never experience the story, so getting to the story needs to be as easy and straightforward as possible. Which is why some solo instances can be cleared without pressing a single button.

Its a shame, really.

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Man, "In from the cold" was such a memorable quest and entire storyline for that... Truly one of the best ever in this game... And yes, we need more "gameplay" quests like this... And others where the player has to "do" or "fight" stuff...

And "This is Thancred" I was thinking of this exact one also... Like why isn't there anything at all like this in Dawntrail? Honestly they could have added HOURS of extra content to Dawntrail just by adding some engaging gameplay quests... We need more of this stuff, much more, not less.

What did they even change with that solo duty?
I really liked it, but I know people had trouble with it
It's a shame that we might not get another instance like it

It'd be fun to have more instances like it, and they could keep easy mode for people that just want to breeze though
because I believe failing a solo duty gives you that option

Other than that though, it'd be nice for all he cutscenes to be voiced
It can be kind of boring at times, and that's not even mentioning the whole "machinations" meme
which they really should give us more music variance for those types of scenes

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Originally Posted by Honalee

Man, "In from the cold" was such a memorable quest and entire storyline for that... Truly one of the best ever in this game... And yes, we need more "gameplay" quests like this... And others where the player has to "do" or "fight" stuff...

And "This is Thancred" I was thinking of this exact one also... Like why isn't there anything at all like this in Dawntrail? Honestly they could have added HOURS of extra content to Dawntrail just by adding some engaging gameplay quests... We need more of this stuff, much more, not less.

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Memorable, but also incredibly polarizing. Some maintain it is a gripping duty, full of tension and excitement, and the best in the game. Others regard it as completely implausible from a plot point of view, tedious, poorly explained, and the most unpleasant experience they had in MSQ.

That kind of polarized reaction to required content means SE is unlikely to repeat it. Consequently, those who enjoy such instances would do better to lobby for them as optional content.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Memorable, but also incredibly polarizing. Some maintain it is a gripping duty, full of tension and excitement, and the best in the game. Others regard it as completely implausible from a plot point of view, tedious, poorly explained, and the most unpleasant experience they had in MSQ.

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Its polarizing because Square Enix spent the last 9 years making sure that you do not need to actually play the game in order to watch the cutscenes.

So many solo duties can literally not be failed at this point that every time a duty can actually fail, people are complaining. Story progress is always granted, in a way.
As already written by other people in this thread, other Final Fantasy mainline games do blend actual gameplay and story, and unless you actually play the game, you will be unable to see what will happen next.

Granted, FFXIV is an MMORPG and needs to do some things differently (as expected because of the genre of game), but it begs the question if there is not a different kind of solution here.

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

What did they even change with that solo duty?
I really liked it, but I know people had trouble with it
It's a shame that we might not get another instance like it

It'd be fun to have more instances like it, and they could keep easy mode for people that just want to breeze though
because I believe failing a solo duty gives you that option

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I agree with this. And I don't think there's any reason they can't have a "ridiculously easy mode" for those that can't beat these's duties and quests. Overall a Dawntrail style coasting through the MSQ with next to no combat or gameplay leads to a just an absurdly dull experience.

This was the first expansion (including ARR) that left me feeling ABSOLUTELY NOTHING at the end of it... And that is horrible for a game like this. Who wants to invest time in an experience like that? There was nothing at all memorable in this Dawntrail MSQ experience, and with the potential that was there, it's honestly a real shame for all those who worked on it and played through it.

I agree with majority of the sentiments here. The MSQ was padded way too much with little gameplay. It feels disjointed as if they cut a huge portion out and shoehorned Alexandria in there. it feels like Alexandria was going to be more of patch content build up to 8.0. That stuff is the best part of MSQ imo but they spent too much time having us learn about culture of the people. It was boring. The entire MSQ up until Vanguard could have been condensed into a single zone. 2 tops.

If the vacation theme was really the thing, I would have prederred a shorter MSQ with a more localized villain durong the contest and then cliffhanger to the alexandria story line to develop over the patch msq. So much of nothing happens until Vanguard imo. I don't know how anyone could approve this as a compelling 75% of an expansion.

It won't change, the playerbase is still too divided. I personally hated Dawntrail, it felt infantile and a weird change of pace to an otherwise adult world. Like a neutered anime take. I'd say it's Disney, but even Disney can be darker and more realistic than this with more nuance.

But a lot of people like it, sadly. I think the only way SE is gonna change is competition or people voting with their wallets, I think even an overwhelming amount of negativity would be like.. "okay we'll change it in ... maybe three years?"
I doubt they are even in damage control, aside from Yoshi-P's haphazard P.R interviews, but even in most of them he's like "Yeah, everythings totally fine guys, we will show you the charm of Wuk Lamat"

Wuk Lamat is not the issue, she's just a scapegoat... or SCAPELAMA...tea for some horrible simplistic anime writing and game design for the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Valkret

First off, I am not referring to the story. I am talking about the gameplay. We are now on the 5th expansion and the MSQ formula remains the same; talk to a couple of npcs, do some fetch quest, talk to more npcs, kill one or two mobs every couple of hours, rinse and repeat. It's feels extremely outdated. I think in the span of an expansions MSQ (excluding trails and dungeons) we probably don't get to kill more than 30 mobs.

We were able to overlook this in the past two expansions because the story being told was so good. In my opinion no matter how hard SE tried, they were never going to be able to to capture the magic in storytelling that we've had for the past several years with one single expansion. Just because these type of stories take time to build and it takes time to create an in depth world and complex characters. And I am ok with that, I went into dawntrail fully expecting the story to be average. But I did not expect to be so bored playing through it.

Part of me is actually happy that a lot of people are not liking the story, so we can finally realize that outside of the story, how boring and monotonous the MSQ content actually is. The other part of me is a little upset that SE actually thinks that 6+ hours of boring fetch quest is acceptable content.

When it comes to the MSQ, SE has been riding on the back of their brilliant writers and amazing storytelling. I am hoping that this less well received start to a new story serves as a wake up call for them to finally modernize the gameplay aspects of the MSQ.

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have we not BEEn doing this to be silenced by our peers for speaking out like were drinking the kool-aid. what more would you have us do. riot in limsa or mass unsub? until the community infighting over the game stop, the game will never change because yoshiP acts on the unanimous decisions of the players. and often with ill effect or poor results. DT is where we ar enow only listening to the super elite. 2 ultimates. criterion dungeon promised as ex level given as savage, but actually ultimate! Chaotic alliance raid promised ex, delivered as savage. Save the queen savage level progression thats hard to find a group for, taking a long prog period or the most heavy of carries. savages that's difficulty is either completely easy or ridiculously hard. no in-between because outside of ultimates.. no effort. Msq thats a complete snore fest you could leave on afk. no gameplay. no instanced duties no excitement on a casual level. this is a hardcore raiding sim now, and if you dont like it. well you clearly just have burnout! :p

I started playing Infinity Nikki at the behest of a friend. It's a casual, fluffy, open world game about collecting fashion items to make outfits with. Like as casual as it gets.

So why am I having more fun playing through the story of this goofy little pretty princess game than I have been playing a Final Fantasy game??

Because there's things to do in the quests and while traveling between them! Collecting things is enjoyable! Exploring the world is interesting and rewarding! I don't think this game is some masterpiece, by the way, but damn, at least it can keep my attention! What do I get for wandering around in Yak'tel? Uh...hm...maybe...I guess this one area looks kind of nice? Maybe I could gpose here? Ehh...

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Its polarizing because Square Enix spent the last 9 years making sure that you do not need to actually play the game in order to watch the cutscenes.

So many solo duties can literally not be failed at this point that every time a duty can actually fail, people are complaining. Story progress is always granted, in a way.
As already written by other people in this thread, other Final Fantasy mainline games do blend actual gameplay and story, and unless you actually play the game, you will be unable to see what will happen next.

Granted, FFXIV is an MMORPG and needs to do some things differently (as expected because of the genre of game), but it begs the question if there is not a different kind of solution here.

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I'm not sure it was polarizing because it was difficult. I recall at the time some people claiming the excitement was in part driven by what terrible things the WoL's body might do to the Scions, while others pointed out Y'shtola would "see" the ruse in a nanosecond and just say something sarcastic.

However, I think you've hit the nail on the head in that a different solution is needed to incorporate engaging gameplay in the MSQ. And to me the most underutilized part of the FF14 assets is the open world. We have these incredible maps which are visually striking and topographically deep, and yet we keep walking across an aetheryte plaza to ask a local if they need any poo gathered.

Please.
Stop.
Involving.
Old.
FF series.
I want FF14 original story. PLEASE, for the love of Ascian, STOP and focus on FF14, not promotional avenue to old FF to make players buy or try the other games.
FF14 is already designed "once you're done, play other games", do we need more reason to quit FF14? The generosity of no FOMO is changed into "Get out ASAP or RP!!"
Please don't do this. I never play other FF other than 14, and I feel missing out on reference. Or "Why did I see this in a promotion before?"
There is no more unique FF14 music as much, it is refered and modified of old FF, for nolstalgia for those who played?
Even when story IS unique to FF14, sphene looks Genshin impact model, not FF14!! And I am sorry, but now I know almost certain the remaining shards is promo.
so far all the shards except for the ancient which was FF14 original (Ascians) it has been nothing but references to old FF games, I am not ignorant to recognize this.
When I saw Wuk Lamat in 6.5 I thought "Oh No... this is going to end bad.... I don't like this person... She is going to win it, and that's going to be the vacation?"
It was worse than that.. It would not be worse if they stopped getting inspired by old FF. Please bring out new original ideas and characters,
and if you add new models like Sphene, making it playable would be nice. It is even sad for many years players asked "Can we get brighter color options for dye/hair?"
Always there was told about limits and now the NPC are flourishing with pretty colors, maybe they work on it now and it releases in 8.0 but I am not holding my breath.

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Originally Posted by CosmoBabylonia

Since you mentioned JP... Usual caveats apply for below. I'm rummaging through their image boards with Google translate right now to find more gems.

https://i.ibb.co/TkFGtwj/full.png

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some of these are absolutely savage lmao

DT was ordering a double-meat whataburger, one of the patties being taken in-transit, the other patty being turned into a veggie-patty, and the waitress telling you how much better this is because it's agreeable to the culture of the natives of Utah while excluding and ignoring that the establishment is a gorram WHATABURGER. And best of all, you have to nod and agree with everything said and you don't have an option to object despite you making disagreements and objections to other waiters and waitress' at other establishments for similar reasons.

Story, gameplay, class designs -- it didn't cook, it got nuked. Tanks have it rough, especially, and fit the analogy of 'skimping out on the sandwich', and story-wise the WoL got neutered.