Viper would of been better if it had a different name

Uhh, “Viper” was a name and term in FFIX, if I remember correctly.

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

Uhh, “Viper” was a name and term in FFIX, if I remember correctly.

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Are you sure? Can't find anything about that

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

I think it’s dumb, but it could make sense when we see their abilities. It could be all snake and poison puns/references. Who knows? But I'm also not an authority on what names things should be called. I've named a hamster Steve.

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This is what I expect of poison dot style, or something that has like a gcd or cd reduction for lightning fast attacks kind of like a viper then I think the name will fit fine

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Are you sure? Can't find anything about that

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It's a the nickname of one of Zidanes twinblades found in the help text

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

It's a the nickname of one of Zidanes twinblades found in the help text

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Wow that seems really far fetched.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Wow that seems really far fetched.

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If it is meant as a 9 reference they picked a really obscure way to to it
(Help text for Rune Tooth if anyone wants to know, also Zidane's weapon with poison added effect)

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I am NOT a Viper hater. I just think the devs didn't do a very good job of conveying what it is. A second western style sword DPS job has been a niche that has been unfulfilled for a long time.

Samurai, and Ninja are eastern.

If you want a classic RPG sword user that isn't a Tank, you have to use Red Mage, which is a MAGE even though it is a cool sword fighter.

Imo I think they should of called it a Swordsmaster, or Blademaster because it strongly resembles the Swordsmasters in other RPGs such as the Fire Emblem series, with the unique sword combo stance making it a more unique concept to FFXIV.

Viper is such an odd name for a job, and though I don't hate it, I do hope I learn to love the name of the job overtime. Does it actually have a meaning to the snake motif? If that ends up being the case, that actually would be quite cool. I do love how sometimes Yoshi P and the team are very good at delivering surprise concepts that we don't fully understand, but grow to love later. Such as Shadowbringers. No one expected that, but now its the fan favorite expansion.

Anyway these were just some of my thoughts. >:3

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if the name of the job carries wheter its good or bad then id honestly say thats a terrible way to rate the job. the name should be the thing that matters the least

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Names matter. If you don't think they matter, then you aren't creative enough.

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lame response titanmen

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

If it is meant as a 9 reference they picked a really obscure way to to it
(Help text for Rune Tooth if anyone wants to know, also Zidane's weapon with poison added effect)

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Its obscure for sure, but it does add up considering the added effect on that one specific weapon and Viper class. Again we still dont know how the snake concept will come to play. I want to believe we'll have dots, but considering how the FFXIV battle team apparently hates dots, that may be unlikely we'll have it?

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

If it is meant as a 9 reference they picked a really obscure way to to it
(Help text for Rune Tooth if anyone wants to know, also Zidane's weapon with poison added effect)

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Hell, RUNE TOOTH would have been a better name. It better communicates Zidane and Hunter/Ranger, as well as suggests a runeblade/mystic knight. While also having a more solid "bestial" motif than a simple snake.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

At some point this argument is asinine. We criticize this dev team for only taking job inspiration from previous FF games, they dip one toe into something truly original. These forums spew copious amounts of word vomit and hope something sticks this time it’s “oh i dont like the name despite knowing everything about the job based off the 3 minutes of information you gave to us.”

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If it were truly original, I would agree with this line of thinking.

But it's not. It is a job based, at least in some part, on Zidane, and to some extent terribly underutilizing the source material.

And even then, to call an extremely narrow, unidimensional job concept like "viper", where the only thing it seems to have going for it is two swords and a snake motif, "truly original", is I think deluding oneself. This is, by far, the shallowest, non-design we have seen in a job to date. Despite what people are saying, it really isn't *creative* on the same level of prior job designs. It is amateurish.

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Originally Posted by Cach

IMHO a lot of people dislike the name simply because it lacks "legacy". I'm pretty sure they'll try to create lore and personality for it, but for right now my reaction was 'meh'.

The "piratey" looking armour and beach/island/treasure setting is why a lot of people went with Corsair (plus Merylwb has animation sets for pistols, I honestly thought they were going to reuse them), it was the logical choice. But they decided not to have a gun/blunderbuss so that option went out the window. Would people have reacted negatively to a Corsair without guns? We can only speculate now.

Viper wouldn't have been my first choice. As some people on other threads have pointed out names like Thief or Pirate have "negative connotations" (fun fact: I worked on a game about pirates once and some countries really hate to use the term on titles, so it had to be changed to sailors or something).

I would have gone with "Treasure Hunter" as a wink to FF6's Locke. Too long or confusing? something like 'Raider' then. (As in Raiders of the Lost Ark, or Tomb Raider. Fits the setting).

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I think people absolutely would have accepted a more Corsair-leaning job with two swords, if it were flavored correctly to still emphasize (1) Zidane traits, and (2) swashbuckling. I am glad we agree that "Hunter", and leaning into both animal hunting and treasure hunting, would have communicated both Corsair and Thief reasonably well. I also like your idea of Raider.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

There is something to be said for making hasty judgements, but in this instance I don't think finding out any more about the class would change anything when the problem is with the name, what it tells you and how it comes off.

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Basically this. We actually have been given quite a lot of the overview of the job to judge if the name and concept is actually very good. Just because there are remaining details to be revealed doesn't mean it is very savvy to hide behind WAFO apologism. I don't think being undiscerning makes for a very strong argument in favor of the class, and I definitely see a difference in the quality of rationales between the ugh-Viper commentators and the woo-Viper commentators.

I have seen a bunch of illiterates saying "oh you're just mad that you didn't get Corsair or Thief", and that just isn't the case. I didn't need either of those jobs, but when a job is this close to being a coherent, solid reference to past FF jobs and had a clear path to victory (Hunter), obviously I am irritated that the devs tripped over their own stupid ideas and ended up implementing a very shallow, non-concept instead.

I have also seen a bunch of people insisting that the devs are "creating" a new job out of this concept. Pray tell, what exactly can be coaxed out of this motif? It's a snake. That's all there is to it. It may get a little poison. It may get some speedy slashes. But outside of that, Viper just doesn't offer as much creative direction and design space as "Hunter" or "Raider" or "Ranger". It is so self-limiting and shooting itself in the foot. We assuredly are not going to get a cool multifaceted job like Sage or Reaper out of this, and if we do, it will at best be in *spite* of the name, and at worst be *actively dissonant* from the name.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

-And even then, to call an extremely narrow, unidimensional job concept like "viper", where the only thing it seems to have going for it is two swords and a snake motif, "truly original", is I think deluding oneself. This is, by far, the shallowest, non-design we have seen in a job to date. Despite what people are saying, it really isn't *creative* on the same level of prior job designs. It is amateurish.

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Some of you sure do take yourselves awfully seriously.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

FFXIV is not WoW. Can we aggree on that?

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Mate, you were saying people wouldn't be able to tell whether a reference to vipers would be to the job/people or to animals.

There are Ninja NPCs featured prominently in XIV, yet that has never caused confusion as to whether one means a plauer or NPC. There are also NPC dragoons, marauders, summoners, and nearly every other job, usually with some sort of presumably attachment to a particular order/organization.

Similarly, there are both NPC bears (pets) involved even in player combat in WoW, yet that has never caused them to be confused with Bears (Guardian Druids).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Mate, you were saying people wouldn't be able to tell whether a reference to vipers would be to the job/people or to animals.

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If you think i said that, read again. I am done with painstakingly trying to have mmo junkies understand a basic argument.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

And even then, to call an extremely narrow, unidimensional job concept like "viper", where the only thing it seems to have going for it is two swords and a snake motif, "truly original", is I think deluding oneself. This is, by far, the shallowest, non-design we have seen in a job to date. Despite what people are saying, it really isn't *creative* on the same level of prior job designs. It is amateurish.

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Sir you have seen five skill animations (from multiple angles) and one promo art, can you please at least wait until the media tour gives us the tooltips for the skills before you go about claiming people are 'deluding oneself' or whatever, it seems very pretentious and if there is any possibility that the job turns out to be very thematically linked to the name 'Viper', it would be a shame for someone to end up with an entire box of eggs on their face after all of... whatever this is. There is the chance that it won't, and it'll just be 'fast man job #4', but until we see the full action list I do not see the point in getting so worked up over the name. Or after we see the action list, to be honest

Also, Hunter and Ranger both imply bows, or some sort of ranged weapon (Hunter in the past FFs I've played used Greatbows, for example), to most people. I can't imagine a melee range Hunter going any better than WOW's melee range Hunter (one of the least played specs in the whole game, constantly complained about for taking away the gameplay of old Surv), and I don't see how it makes much sense to have a class called Ranger have no range. Also, if Thief and Pirate have 'negative connotations', I'd expect Raider to be even worse for it, given the pillaging and raping that usually occurred on raids in history. The 'Tomb Raider' angle also is like... you raid a tomb, you're stealing from it. If there's a Thief in a tomb, they're gonna be stealing from it, the terms are synonymous

If you would prefer a different name instead of Viper, more power to you. But I would bet real money that if the word 'Ranger' had appeared on that screen instead of Viper, the audience would have been unimaginably whelmed. Whelmed, and confused as to why it's got a dual-thingy blade instead of something that can hit from more than 6y ingame distance away, like a crossbow

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Originally Posted by BRVV

If you think i said that, read again. I am done with painstakingly trying to have mmo junkies understand a basic argument.

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Okay so

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Originally Posted by BRVV

All the defenders ignore that viper is still the name of an animal. "We have 5 vipers with us". The job or actual snakes?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

The wondering was meant for NPCs but of course they are never going to be written like that even though it would be realistic.

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You said it could be an issue for NPCs being unable to discern, in-character during a conversation, whether they are in the midst of a group of Vipers (the job), vipers (the animal), or perhaps vipers (disparaging insult towards someone, often a traitor). For the player, we can tell based on context, and because the job name is capitalized as it is a proper noun. For the NPCs, as mentioned by others, this has yet to cause an issue when discerning between warriors (people who fight) and Warriors (berserking job with big axe), or scholars (learned people) or Scholars (healer discipline from Nym, which makes use of a Fairy and maths).

Maybe your 'basic argument' just sucks

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Maybe your 'basic argument' just sucks

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In universe but you can always write it they way you want it. That's also why the "warrior" thing was never a problem :) With the same arguments every character could have the same name. If the writers decide everyone understands it perfectly no problem right? Just not realistic. But hey you all defend a new job because it MIGHT have a reason for the name. Copium must be nice.

Added: with all of the "wait until X" i don't get why there are topics about DT content at all. DT isn't even close to being out. All this could be totally useless, which is fitting for this forum

I don't like it because viper just looks weird when listed with the other jobs. I tried articulating why earlier, but it's hard to determine exactly what makes it seem off beyond it not being an instantly identifiable "people job". Bounty/Treasure/Just Hunter would probably have supplied the morally dubious tone while sounding more correct. Don't know if it has ranged options yet or turns into a giant snake, but if not then scout/assassin or something in the anglosphere zeitgeist associated with dexterity and big knives - reiver's probably not it, but there's surely at least a few more before resorting to animals. Guerrilla for instance.

It's nice to have a argument about something other than how it will end up playing into raid buffs. Maybe it's just a 2d chess move to act as a lightningrod for criticism.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

but there's surely at least a few more before resorting to animals. Guerrilla for instance.

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Could you do me a favour and reread what you wrote here? Out loud a couple of times too

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Could you do me a favour and reread what you wrote here? Out loud a couple of times too

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Oh good, I was worried it wouldn't work in text.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

If it were truly original, I would agree with this line of thinking.

But it's not. It is a job based, at least in some part, on Zidane, and to some extent terribly underutilizing the source material.

And even then, to call an extremely narrow, unidimensional job concept like "viper", where the only thing it seems to have going for it is two swords and a snake motif, "truly original", is I think deluding oneself. This is, by far, the shallowest, non-design we have seen in a job to date. Despite what people are saying, it really isn't *creative* on the same level of prior job designs. It is amateurish.

I think people absolutely would have accepted a more Corsair-leaning job with two swords, if it were flavored correctly to still emphasize (1) Zidane traits, and (2) swashbuckling. I am glad we agree that "Hunter", and leaning into both animal hunting and treasure hunting, would have communicated both Corsair and Thief reasonably well. I also like your idea of Raider.

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The job seems to have no actual inspiration from Zidane, particularly from his actual game appearance as the weapons have pretty much no relation to anything he does outside of having a twobladed weapon. The job seems to pull more from Gabranth than anything to do with Zidane

Maybe not FFIX Zidane, but I've seen people point out similarities to his crossover appearances (e.g. Dissidia)

Based on the lore for what was given for Viper, it seems that it’s a tribal hunter, but in a sense it is more akin to being a cold-blooded killer. This makes it seem like an assassin-type job, since it shares Scouting gear with Ninja.

In real life, Ninja were actually spies and assassins that were hired by wealthy families to infiltrate places. During the day, the would-be Ninja were farmers. Most of a Ninja’s toolkit in real life were practical tools, including some sets used by farmers like the ball and chain attached to a sickle (like Kohaku from InuYasha). At night is when the “farmers” would go about their nighttime jobs as a Ninja to spy and/or assassinate their targets (usually high profile people).

I believe that Viper will follow a similar path. The NPC will possibly be someone from Tural, most likely a Mamool Ja as the name Viper can also be based on them being part reptilian beastmen.

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

Based on the lore for what was given for Viper, it seems that it’s a tribal hunter, but in a sense it is more akin to being a cold-blooded killer. This makes it seem like an assassin-type job, since it shares Scouting gear with Ninja.

In real life, Ninja were actually spies and assassins that were hired by wealthy families to infiltrate places. During the day, the would-be Ninja were farmers. Most of a Ninja’s toolkit in real life were practical tools, including some sets used by farmers like the ball and chain attached to a sickle (like Kohaku from InuYasha). At night is when the “farmers” would go about their nighttime jobs as a Ninja to spy and/or assassinate their targets (usually high profile people).

I believe that Viper will follow a similar path. The NPC will possibly be someone from Tural, most likely a Mamool Ja as the name Viper can also be based on them being part reptilian beastmen.

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Why does it lean so hard into a second assassin job fantasy though when the gear class is Scouting? Especially when it is unlikely we will get a third Scouting job?

The concept is stupid, unimaginative, duplicative, and an astounding waste of design space.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Why does it lean so hard into a second assassin job fantasy though when the gear class is Scouting? Especially when it is unlikely we will get a third Scouting job?

The concept is stupid, unimaginative, duplicative, and an astounding waste of design space.

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Bro, why are you so angry?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Bro, why are you so angry?

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They were passed over for the position of senior job design director for somebody with far less time in the field. Tragic story, really. Hoping for an autobiography some day.

Depending on how the lore, story, and environment turn out in 7.0, viper may in fact be a very fitting name. Considering that Dawntrail employs a "New World" theme and aesthetic, it would make perfect sense to me. Vipers and large serpents are of spiritual and cultural significance, particularly in the Mesoamerican cultures, and one of the most well known deities of that region refer to the feathered serpent or Quetzalcoatl. I wouldn't be surprised if the class Viper was intricately tied to the deeper lore of the expansion. Anyone from an Indigenous American culture would confirm how deeply symbolic and significant our family clan and tribal totems are and how they inform styles of combat, medicine, magic, and living. Under this perspective, an animal/creature name used as a dps class name is actually quite descriptive and significant.



Part of my anticipation in 7.0 is the hope that they will draw upon lots of the lore of the Americas to fill the new environment and inform bosses and characters from a design and writing standpoint. I'm desperately bored with everything being ancient Greek, Roman, or medieval themed. Although most things informed by Indigenous American lore tends to focus exclusively on Mesoamerican cultures like the Aztec or the Maya, I'm hoping that they will flex their research muscle a bit and include some things that draw from the eastern woodland cultures in North America, the design and lore of which goes almost entirely unappreciated despite it's deep roots and diverse cultures.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Oh good, I was worried it wouldn't work in text.

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Absolutely did.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Why does it lean so hard into a second assassin job fantasy though when the gear class is Scouting? Especially when it is unlikely we will get a third Scouting job?

The concept is stupid, unimaginative, duplicative, and an astounding waste of design space.

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I'mma keep it a buck 50 with you chief, you're wasting a lot of energy baby raging over a single job that's only had about 3 minutes of screen time.

Please go touch spring water.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Why does it lean so hard into a second assassin job fantasy though when the gear class is Scouting? Especially when it is unlikely we will get a third Scouting job?

The concept is stupid, unimaginative, duplicative, and an astounding waste of design space.

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Because a lot of people have been wanting an another assassin type job for a while now. Ninja is a very eastern assassin-esque job. If anything, I'm a bit disappointed that it might be a bit tribal, although I understand why it would be considering the territory we'll likely be in.

It's also very possible that the job quest npc themselves are actually located in tural considering that the SE has stated that 6.1 will eventually be a new starting point.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Oh good, I was worried it wouldn't work in text.

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Bah, I fall for one of the classic blunders once again! Curse you, neurodivergence!

So what will it be? VPR? I kinda like it.

I couldn't be more hyped about this Job. This is amazing.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

It's also very possible that the job quest npc themselves are actually located in tural considering that the SE has stated that 6.1 will eventually be a new starting point.

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We already know it is starting in Ul'dah.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

We already know it is starting in Ul'dah.

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That's a shame. Ever since SB we've had new jobs start out in ARR zones. I feel like it limits the job quests a bit story wise.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

That's a shame. Ever since SB we've had new jobs start out in ARR zones. I feel like it limits the job quests a bit story wise.

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people complained because the first three new jobs were locked behind MSQ Ishgard ... Imagine they locked the new jobs behind story like that again... Stormblood jobs can only be gotten in storm blood areas (accessible only after getting into stormblood and etc.) You want them to be story locked again? As of right now they're only locked to having the expansion or not same as the races.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

people complained because the first three new jobs were locked behind MSQ Ishgard ... Imagine they locked the new jobs behind story like that again... Stormblood jobs can only be gotten in storm blood areas (accessible only after getting into stormblood and etc.) You want them to be story locked again? As of right now they're only locked to having the expansion or not same as the races.

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Its for the best. But I do agree with Neko's sentiment. It is what it is

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Originally Posted by Rannie

people complained because the first three new jobs were locked behind MSQ Ishgard ... Imagine they locked the new jobs behind story like that again... Stormblood jobs can only be gotten in storm blood areas (accessible only after getting into stormblood and etc.) You want them to be story locked again? As of right now they're only locked to having the expansion or not same as the races.

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Nothing is forcing them to put them in newer zones, make them unlock in hw, sb, shb or ew zones.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

Nothing is forcing them to put them in newer zones, make them unlock in hw, sb, shb or ew zones.

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uhm yeah it's called those zones are locked behind story. they did that once already as I stated with Heavensward and people complained because those zones are only accessable when you unlock them with each expansions main story.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Its for the best. But I do agree with Neko's sentiment. It is what it is

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i get the sentiment too however we gotta face the fact of the reason why they don't do it too ^_^

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Originally Posted by Rannie

people complained because the first three new jobs were locked behind MSQ Ishgard ... Imagine they locked the new jobs behind story like that again... Stormblood jobs can only be gotten in storm blood areas (accessible only after getting into stormblood and etc.) You want them to be story locked again? As of right now they're only locked to having the expansion or not same as the races.

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If you have to wait til you get a certain level/point in the story locking behind expansion locations does not actually matter. People are fickle and weird about that.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

If you have to wait til you get a certain level/point in the story locking behind expansion locations does not actually matter. People are fickle and weird about that.

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as i stated they still b******* and complained to no end about it sooo they stopped doing that with jobs since Stormblood. people also complain about the zones being locked by story but SE isn't changing that


on a side note.... as for the OP the name doesn't matter. what matters it how it plays... you know like how you could call a rose a pile o'shit instead but it would still smell the same or any flower for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

people complained because the first three new jobs were locked behind MSQ Ishgard ... Imagine they locked the new jobs behind story like that again... Stormblood jobs can only be gotten in storm blood areas (accessible only after getting into stormblood and etc.) You want them to be story locked again? As of right now they're only locked to having the expansion or not same as the races.

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Well it wouldn't be that bad in my opinion. Kind of.

Yoshi stated that they're planning on making 6.1 a new starting point. It might be on DT release, and it might not be. That's mostly why I felt it would be okay to put the quest NPCs in the new locations.

I mean I'm obviously just going to deal with it and play it as it is, but I do think there was a missed opportunity this time.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Well it wouldn't be that bad in my opinion. Kind of.

Yoshi stated that they're planning on making 6.1 a new starting point. It might be on DT release, and it might not be. That's mostly why I felt it would be okay to put the quest NPCs in the new locations.

I mean I'm obviously just going to deal with it and play it as it is, but I do think there was a missed opportunity this time.

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where's the citation for the new starting point... everywhere I look there's nothing saying that yes it is. I'm curious to know if my information is wrong or outdated.