Evidence that Macros Do NOT Cause GCD Delay or Lost Casts

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's one thing to say they are not optimal when done in certain ways. However, it's wrong to say they can never be. For example, I have intervention macros, nascent flash macros, shirk macros, rescue macros, aetherial manipulation macros, sacred soil/asylum macros, etc. It would definitely be sub-optimal to not macro them and even make me lose whole GCDs.

Where they are sub-optimal, this is often minor unless you macro a combo/combination of things, where the waits cause a whole 0.5 delay minimum or skipped casts in the macro.

For example, you can "macro two things together" to create a priority system where the macro will only actually use one based on factors such as level or if one of them is on cooldown.

Also, I think part of the point of these posts is that it's made more sub-optimal by pressing the macro more than once, restarting the macro before it can even execute.

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I guess but with all pros telling you not to do that with macros it really leads me to wonder if this is a bad advice thread.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

I guess but with all pros telling you not to do that with macros it really leads me to wonder if this is a bad advice thread.

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Certain oGCDs like Jeeq mentioned are actually worth macroing since you can press the button and it'll come out on whatever <2>, <focustarget>, or <mouseover> is without having to click multiple times.

There is barely ever, if there even is, any reason to have a macro that is /action <t> or just /action instead of making it come out on a specific preset target or being a Mouseover macro.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

I guess but with all pros telling you not to do that with macros it really leads me to wonder if this is a bad advice thread.

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This is so real, and I feel it.

From both history and life, I've learned that the greatest minds of every generation have always managed to be wrong about something — from thinking the world is flat, to thinking women are incapable of leadership, to thinking that reading books is bad for your mind. And despite standing on the shoulders of giants, our generation is no different.

That being the case, I'd recommend trying to find a balance between looking to others for guidance and thinking critically/doing your own research. Even with the best of intentions, every one of us will misjudge something or miss something sometimes, so look to others to check your work, but also do the work yourself when you genuinely want to know more.

A short anecdote:

Since I first started playing FF14, I've had a disability that has been gradually getting worse, and for that reason I had been using simple macros to play; not the kind that run a sequence of actions one-after another, but the kind that put a few different actions on the same button and let the context of the game determine which one is suitable to use. These macros really helped me to access more of my kit than I would have been able to otherwise. So after a few months when I stumbled across someone saying that macros lowered your APM by clipping your GCD, I was devastated. I tested it out, and they were right; my macros were getting clipped!

I struggled with this knowledge. On one-hand, these macros had served me really well, and I hadn't been experiencing any meaningful problems in the game because of them. But at the same time, a part of me really didn't like knowing that the techniques I was using were sub-optimal; there was a discomfort in that. I didn't know what to do, and I was feeling incredibly torn.

At some point in this turmoil, I stubbornly decided that I would try to make macros work. Part of me figured that this was hopeless, that this was nothing but the futile and final protests of a paradigm at the end of its life. But part of me desperately wanted to hope that I could do it. "I've been programming for most of my life, surely I can find some way to make it work!" I meekly tried to convince myself.

But as it turned out...I did discover something. Eventually, I tried writing the same action repeatedly in a macro, and tests showed that I could press the button a short time before my GCD was ready and that the action would cast when the GCD became available. I can't describe to you my happiness at finding a way to be able to use the macros that made my gaming possible, and without clipping the GCD!*

All of which is to say: if I had just accepted what I had been told at that time, I might not have ever learned the truth. But by getting my hands dirty, by putting in the effort, I was able to to get closer to the truth and feel confident in my knowledge because I had done the science myself.

So if you find yourself unsure of what to believe, I can't recommend a better tie-breaker than rolling up your sleeves and getting the answers yourself. It would probably only take you a few minutes to write a macro that repeats the same line a few times for queuing purposes, and then you can test it in combat and get a feel for when you need to press the button depending on how many repeated lines of queuing the macro has (you can add or remove them to get that feel). The more you play around, the more you'll learn.

And maybe you'll learn that even though macros have this queuing behavior, it's not long enough for you, or it's just not worth the hassle, or whatever. And that's entirely valid! But you'll only truly learn that by giving it a good faith effort.

I hope this helps in some way! ^^


*And over my years of playing, I've further refined my macro techniques to do all sorts of neat things and learned more about how to optimize macros depending on what results the user is after. My stubbornness and curiosity have made macros something that I've developed some level of expertise at, and I genuinely enjoy exploring new kinds of macros, learning more about them, and sharing that knowledge with others.

When are you going to show this off in content? I would love to see that.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Macros queue if you write them to queue. All the details of how that works are in the first post.

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Macros have a different type of queue.

When you use abilities you can use an ability and then there is a period where the input for the 2nd ability will queue and trigger when possible.
With macros this is not the case. If you put the same abilities in two macros, when you use one ability, you have to spam the button for the other until it triggers. Since macros don't queue.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

And if you read this to the end, I greatly appreciate your patience in engaging with this novel! <3

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This was a super fun read and I'm glad I saw this thread. I've been noticing more Japanese players using macros recently which was super confusing to me given what I've heard from the Balance, but I see now that you can actually use macros without clipping. I'm excited to try this out.

Hiho,

Macros work only on stuff that is not GCD dependant. Period. Examples are: Rez macro - Please, oh lord WITHOUT SOUND. Stop playing DJ!; Shirk and provoke macro, Target macros, etc..

Macros are only full seconds and GCDs are NOT full seconds only. So you will loose some. This is the rule and can be tested. Put 5 skill of an roation into macro and you will loose GCDs.
Hey i have an idea put the Hypercharge + Wildfire part of the burst window of the MCH into a Macro or mudras from the ninja. Do it and you will see.

Hey i know, looking for solution is cool and all but this is not the solution for it. Also dont you think after such an long time people would figure it out if it was possible?
You can and "should" (my opinion) use things like target macros, rez macro (if you need this your orange-monkey-calculator badge is lost anyway). Things that are on full seconds or not time dependant are fine. I use greetings and the like and focus target or as a tank a reminder (with and without sound, some healers need that jingle) if i use my invuln. Thats the extent but rotations will never work because how the system works. Still, good work for thinking and making an effort but you will loose GCDs inside a rotation and outside of an rotation it does not matter and you can do what ever.

PS.:
As a test, i used my WAR and puzzeld the burst together as a macro and 2 attacks did not go off and as a result everything was botched. No probelm because WAR burst is even "macro-dumb-proof" but still i gained nothing except a headache and missing GCDs.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

I'm sorry that you struggle with a disability. Good on you for finding something that works for you. But to say that Macros do not cause a GCD delay or lost casts, as your title suggests, is WRONG. It is a falsehood. Sometimes Macros don't fire. Sometimes you don't press it every 15 frames to make it work. There WILL be inevitable GCD losses for GCD macros. half second buffer > 1/4 second pseudo-buffer.

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It isn't inevitable. It's literally down to timing. GCDs only clip if you can't continually hit the correct timing.
Like for sure this can potentially be a skill issue for some. But like personally I speedrun games that require me to consistently do frame perfect inputs over and over again to pull off certain tricks. Like when I'm warmed up I'm not going to miss a single 2/60 window, I can't personally comprehend calling a 15/60 frame window impossible to stay on top of.

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Originally Posted by Venks

It isn't inevitable. It's literally down to timing. GCDs only clip if you can't continually hit the correct timing.

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Which means a far, far larger group will see a net loss than a net gain --and much more significantly unless unable to change between regular keybinds within a GCD's time-- from using macros on all but a few skills (those requiring specific and different targets, which would otherwise require 3 or more button-presses for that single action), as he already pointed out.

Frame-perfect button-presses themselves only gets you within 1/n frames' time of maintaining perfect uptime.

Using a regular skill, on the other hand, gets you to perfect uptime any time you hit the button within a half-second of its being ready.

This entire thread:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1dca6905c1c23&

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Macros have a different type of queue.

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I would hazard that you're probably talking about the fact that macro queues are shorter, or perhaps the fact that only a single macro can run at once. But to truly know, I'll need more information. Can you describe these situations in more detail? I want to make sure I'm understanding the exact situations you're talking about, because I think you're misunderstanding some aspect of what's happening...but I can't be sure if I don't have more information about the situations you're trying to describe so that I know we're on the same page.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

When you use abilities you can use an ability and then there is a period where the input for the 2nd ability will queue and trigger when possible. With macros this is not the case. If you put the same abilities in two macros, when you use one ability, you have to spam the button for the other until it triggers.

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The way you describe this situation is throwing up red flags, because there's no situation where a well-written macro benefits from being spammed. That suggests to me that something else is going on.

From just what you've written here, my guess is that the timing of your second macro press is too early; remember, macros have shorter queues than normal actions. So if you wanted to use a macro in this situation, you'd just have to adjust your timing; then you could still get the benefit of a queue while also benefiting from whatever functionality the macro is giving you.

It's up to every individual player to decide whether that's "worth it" to them. For me, it most definitely is. I've got years of playing twitch games under my belt so consistently hitting a button in a 10-frame window isn't an issue for me. But for others it might be, and that's valid.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which means a far, far larger group will see a net loss than a net gain

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Setting aside the fact that this statement is conjecture, this doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about. If I said something like "everyone should use macros, they'll improve your play" then you might have a good point here. But I have said nothing close to that. I've explained how macros work, I've gone over both the pros and the cons, and I've suggested that each individual player decide for themselves whether macros will make their situation better or worse. If only a small handful of players find that macros are the better option in some cases for them, then this thread will have served its purpose.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

this doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about.

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It was not a reply made to you. Else it would have quoted you, not the poster it replied to. Any use of the third person in my reply to that poster who was in turn replying to someone else will then be about the person they replied to, not an unrelated person -- be they the original poster or otherwise.

My point, to the person I quoted and thought I had there y made clear I was replying to, was that hitting consistently hitting each GCD skill with frame-perfect precision is not only still allows for slight GCD loss (i.e., within that frame's time) but is also far harder for the typical player. It is not an insignificant, let alone nonexistent, cost.

A single "But *I* do frame-perfect speed runs!" anecdote is not a decent refutation of statistically sensible advice.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It was not a reply made to you. Else it would have quoted you, not the poster it replied to.

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With respect, you seem to be misunderstanding the conversation. I wrote something, the Alt attempted to counter it, and then Venks countered their counter. We're all talking about an idea that I initially presented.

Hopefully that clears that up and we can just talk about the topic amicably.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My point was that hitting consistently hitting each GCD skill with frame-perfect precision is not only still allows for slight GCD loss (i.e., within that frame's time)

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From everything I've seen, both a queued GCD and a queued macro of that same GCD will trigger on the frame after the GCD becomes available. Is there any evidence showing that there is a difference on when these occur within the frame?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My point was that hitting consistently hitting each GCD skill with frame-perfect precision is also far harder for the typical player. It is not an insignificant, let alone nonexistent, cost.

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I'll agree that it's harder to press a button within a 10-frame window than it is to press a button within a 30-frame window; that is indeed a cost, one that I've been transparent about.

As for it being "far harder for the typical player", have you genuinely done any research into this? How many frames does the typical player need to reliably press a button, and can you provide a source that data?

Regardless, I'll follow-up by explaining why whether it is or isn't meaningfully difficult for the typical player is unimportant in the context of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A single "But *I* do frame-perfect speed runs!" anecdote is not a decent refutation of statistically sensible advice.

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Venks isn't refuting "statistically sensible advice"; Venks is countering the argument that it's inevitable that someone will miss a key press. And they're right.

That said, if you want to talk about "statistically sensible advice", let's do that.

If you want to provide "statistically sensible advice", you can, but it has a glaring flaw: it makes the mistake of assuming that the person the advice is being directed towards is among the people who would benefit from the advice; which means that for some people, "statistically sensible advice" is bad advice.

I would rather not give bad advice to anyone. I would rather not misinform anyone. So I'll give everyone all the information, and then treat them with respect by allowing them to make the decision of which path to take.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which means a far, far larger group will see a net loss than a net gain --

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I'm not arguing everyone should use macros. The comment I was replying to asked the OP not to spread misinformation, while spreading misinformation.

It is a literal verifiable fact that it is possible to use macros without a DPS loss. But yes it is also likely for many players, they'll have an easier time just mashing their next GCD.

I have nothing against people not prefering macros and finding them too hard to use. That's fine. Just don't lie about their functionality. That was my problem with the post I was replying to.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I would hazard that you're probably talking about the fact that macro queues are shorter, or perhaps the fact that only a single macro can run at once. But to truly know, I'll need more information. Can you describe these situations in more detail? I want to make sure I'm understanding the exact situations you're talking about, because I think you're misunderstanding some aspect of what's happening...but I can't be sure if I don't have more information about the situations you're trying to describe so that I know we're on the same page.


The way you describe this situation is throwing up red flags, because there's no situation where a well-written macro benefits from being spammed. That suggests to me that something else is going on.

From just what you've written here, my guess is that the timing of your second macro press is too early; remember, macros have shorter queues than normal actions. So if you wanted to use a macro in this situation, you'd just have to adjust your timing; then you could still get the benefit of a queue while also benefiting from whatever functionality the macro is giving you.

It's up to every individual player to decide whether that's "worth it" to them. For me, it most definitely is. I've got years of playing twitch games under my belt so consistently hitting a button in a 10-frame window isn't an issue for me. But for others it might be, and that's valid.

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No situation well-written macros...

Ma-am, ever played healer on controller? Half their kit will be macroed as
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>

So that they don't get issues having to constantly swap targets to damage an enemy, or heal an ally targeted by an enemy.

And there are plenty other macros that are one action only. And no, macros don't have shorter queue. They have none, the timing would have to be some time after the last ability have completed, unlike with non-macros where the next ability would trigger as the last ability finish.

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Originally Posted by Venks

I've been noticing more Japanese players using macros recently which was super confusing to me given what I've heard from the Balance

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Conversely I'm from JP and I'm confused at the antipathy against macros here. Perhaps it is partially because one of the top players in the JP community preferred healing macros. Unfortunately he retired from the game 6 years ago.
World 1st The Unending Coil of Bahamut(Ultimate) WHM PoV https://youtu.be/qa3iK4Gnxqo

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

What sorts of settings do you save and change when switching jobs via macros?

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I meant that I copy gearsets and settings macros like /mountbgm into the same destination hotbar, and not doing both in one macro, though I should look into that more for Bozja/Eureka gearsets

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I generally try to avoid anything that copies multiple crosshotbars (especially trying to swap 2 crosshotbars!) because of the danger of an interrupted macro resulting in the loss of data.

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Yeah that's why I switched to putting stuff on all 10+cross bars and using hud toggles. A failure is far less painful

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Ma-am, ever played healer on controller?

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Yep, for context I play exclusively on controller, and my WHM was my 2nd job to reach 100. So I'm well aware of the challenges that come with healing on controller. ^^

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Half their kit will be macroed as
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>

So that they don't get issues having to constantly swap targets to damage an enemy, or heal an ally targeted by an enemy.

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For my personal tastes, I like to keep my allies targeted, so I only use this type of macro for abilities like Stone, Aero, etc; I use the up and down D-pad to switch which party member I'm targeting. I've personally found that if I use this kind of macro for healing abilities, it doesn't perform the way I want because I won't heal myself during solo content unless I target myself, which I personally dislike. But on that last matter, to each their own; what matters most is that a macro satisfies the needs of the person using it.

And in the case of this macro, I'm guessing that the reason you feel the need to spam it is because as you wrote it here, this macro can easily be improved. That macro will only try to do a target cast on one single frame, and then it will only try to do a target-of-target cast on one single frame. Because of that, it's not going to be taking advantage of queuing. So I'd recommend instead doing the following:

/macroerror off
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>
/ac <action> <tt>
/ac <action> <t>

This will allow you to get queuing functionality from this macro, where for 12 frames the macro is trying to cast either target or target-of-target on alternating frames. With a macro like this, you're not going to need to spam as long as you press the macro up to 12 frames before your GCD is available. It's way more comfortable and reliable than spamming, so I heartily recommend giving it a try, even though there will likely be a small learning curve as you adjust to the 12-frame timing. Especially if you're already using this type of macro, this will only improve your experience with them.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

And there are plenty other macros that are one action only. And no, macros don't have shorter queue. They have none, the timing would have to be some time after the last ability have completed, unlike with non-macros where the next ability would trigger as the last ability finish.

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In those cases it's even easier than the above because you don't even have to alternate:

/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>
/ac <action>

A macro like this will give you a 12-frame queue window, and it will on average be more responsive than the alternating style because every single frame it's trying to do the same action.

I hope this helps explain how to take advantage of queuing with macros and improves your experience using them! ^^

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Originally Posted by Venks

This was a super fun read and I'm glad I saw this thread. I've been noticing more Japanese players using macros recently which was super confusing to me given what I've heard from the Balance, but I see now that you can actually use macros without clipping. I'm excited to try this out.

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Whoops, I got so caught up in the pushback that it distracted me from your post!

I just want to say that I really appreciate your taking the time to leave positive feedback like this; it fills me with warmth to hear that you were inspired to give these techniques a try, and I hope they work out for you! And if you ever want to talk shop to fine-tune anything or try to solve pain points that arise, I'd be more than happy to!

... Yeah, no. Again the issue is still that non-macros queue and macros dont.

All you've done is add some extra button spam. It doesn't fix the gap in cast time from ability 1 to ability 2.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Whoops, I got so caught up in the pushback that it distracted me from your post!

I just want to say that I really appreciate your taking the time to leave positive feedback like this; it fills me with warmth to hear that you were inspired to give these techniques a try, and I hope they work out for you! And if you ever want to talk shop to fine-tune anything or try to solve pain points that arise, I'd be more than happy to!

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I've been trying it out a bit and it is super cool how much space it can save on my hotbars. It's going to take some time to rebuild my muscle memory. I realize that when I'm dodging mechanics I have a bad habit of mashing my button instead of timing my presses accurately. But so far when I am focused entirely on my rotation, I don't ever clip the GCD. The timing is tighter than what I'm used to, but is super doable. I'm really glad you made this thread, because so many people have very confidently told me incorrect information, I had no idea this was possible and it's super cool!

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

... Yeah, no. Again the issue is still that non-macros queue and macros dont.

All you've done is add some extra button spam. It doesn't fix the gap in cast time from ability 1 to ability 2.

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Are you talking about how there being a single frame between attempts of <t> vs attempts of <tt>? For that specific macro, there's going to statistically be a delay there (50% of the time there will be a 1-frame delay).

But importantly, that delay isn't innate to macros. There are plenty of useful macros that won't have that delay; you just macro one type of action instead of two.

But yeah, you can also choose to write a macro that does have some delay in it. In those situations, you have to decide whether that delay is worth the upsides of having that single macro. If sometimes having a 1-frame delay wasn't to your liking, you could instead make 2 different macros, one that does <t> and another that does <tt>. Then you could have both without delay.

The choice is yours, and that's the power of macros.

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Originally Posted by Venks

I've been trying it out a bit and it is super cool how much space it can save on my hotbars. It's going to take some time to rebuild my muscle memory. I realize that when I'm dodging mechanics I have a bad habit of mashing my button instead of timing my presses accurately. But so far when I am focused entirely on my rotation, I don't ever clip the GCD. The timing is tighter than what I'm used to, but is super doable. I'm really glad you made this thread, because so many people have very confidently told me incorrect information, I had no idea this was possible and it's super cool!

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Hearing this truly makes my day! ^^

I am very appreciative of this thread @Lilimo! Especially considering Japanese players have no aversion to macros, I was surprised to learn how anti-macro NA appears to be, and how little knowledge about them exists in the English-speaking corners of the web aside from "bad, do not use". I also suffer severe hand health issues from decades of being a software developer and general computer junkie, so I am always on the lookout for ways to make the play experience more comfortable for me. I had a suspicion macros might be able to help, and I'm glad to see someone else of like mind take the charge! Digging through the thread and using some of the knowledge shared I've already found a way to make an Umbral Soul/Transpose macro that seems to work just peachy. I wanted to ask specifically what BLM macros you make frequent use of to save hotbar space? I am a controller user and I use the XHB in toggle mode; the WXHB is a secret hand-killer, so I wouldn't use it even if I could, and since I use the XHB in toggle mode I can't use the extended XHB, either. I would really love to be able to fit all of my job actions on a single "main" XHB (even if it uses magic like in the Dragoon example to switch them around behind the scenes) so I don't need to fuss around with switching them myself, and I would only have to tap L or R at any point to access my whole kit.

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Originally Posted by Venks

This was a super fun read and I'm glad I saw this thread. I've been noticing more Japanese players using macros recently which was super confusing to me given what I've heard from the Balance, but I see now that you can actually use macros without clipping. I'm excited to try this out.

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It's worth mentioning that JP players will naturally have less aversion to macros because JP ping is way lower than the average NA/EU player, and at lower pings the need for queueing up abilities as a way to mitigate ping issues is reduced. This isn't some secret JP knowledge that NA/EU players are just too dumb to realize, it's just that our play environments are very different ping-wise. Heck, there was a bug in p12s that likely only made it through QA because they didn't have to worry about ping, as the bug was afaik experienced primarily by NA/EU raiders.

If you don't play at a high level, or if you play a job that never has to double-weave, you might not notice it, or you might not care. But not noticing it, and it not being a thing, aren't the same. I personally have a few macros I use (on bard I use a mouseover macro for warden's paean), but I have to intentionally only use them at points where I'm not going to be trying to double-weave anything around it or else the GCD clips. Maybe you live somewhere with very nice ping, but the majority of NA/EU players don't.

As the following is somewhat related to why macros aren't so great, please do the following for more insight.
Test a macro with the first 14 lines being '/macroerror off' followed by 1 line with '/echo test 1 <se.6>'.
Compare this to a macro with just '/echo test 2 <se.4>'.
Now mash each alternatingly and compare how many of each you get in chat (you will get no instances of test 1 unless you slow down to less than 2 presses a second or so).

Use ACT and track youre keystrokes, do a runs with and without macro and track dps. Thats the argument based an facts not on "i think" or "i feel" but on numbers. Also can you stop with the ideology here? You can do whatever you want its youre hot body but damn stop spreeding missinformation. I never met a player with the so called "macro aversion" you speak of here or even heard of it. So making a problem out of it seems again like tool "look how opressed we macro user are, *sob*".
Macros have their uses but not as the rotation. If you want use them despite that, do it but do not expect people beeing cool with it in Extreme or Savage and even below that. Its an MMO not singleplayer. We play together and that means we respect each others values but comming around and saying "do what i want" or "accept what i want because xyz" is bs.

Sorry if i come across as salty and angry but this is a problem on this board - just because people - singular or many - do not agree with you, does not mean you are hero or fighting oppression or a victim. It means you have a opinion and some folks do not share said opinion.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

Use ACT and track youre keystrokes, do a runs with and without macro and track dps. Thats the argument based an facts not on "i think" or "i feel" but on numbers. Also can you stop with the ideology here? You can do whatever you want its youre hot body but damn stop spreeding missinformation. I never met a player with the so called "macro aversion" you speak of here or even heard of it. So making a problem out of it seems again like tool "look how opressed we macro user are, *sob*".
Macros have their uses but not as the rotation. If you want use them despite that, do it but do not expect people beeing cool with it in Extreme or Savage and even below that. Its an MMO not singleplayer. We play together and that means we respect each others values but comming around and saying "do what i want" or "accept what i want because xyz" is bs.

Sorry if i come across as salty and angry but this is a problem on this board - just because people - singular or many - do not agree with you, does not mean you are hero or fighting oppression or a victim. It means you have a opinion and some folks do not share said opinion.

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With respect, you've written an entire post arguing against things I've never said. So I'm not sure what to do with that.

I'm not presenting an opinion, I'm sharing data and encouraging people to make informed decisions based on that data. If you have something to say about the actual data I've presented, I'd love to hear it.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

And no, the 30 second clip in the op doesn't count, even though I can see very clear and obvious clipping in it.

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Hmmm, it's odd that in all the time this thread has been up, with all the pushback this thread has received, nobody has ever mentioned this "clear and obvious clipping" in my updated test video. Which is strange, because you'd think that if someone wanted to call my evidence into question, this would be the easiest and most effective way to do it! But perhaps no one else has your keen eyes?

Though, it's odd that you would make a post focusing on a request for new tests if you had already invalidated my old tests. You could have simply pointed out the clipping, been specific about when it was happening and how you could tell so that any reader (myself included) could verify your claim of the test's fault, and that alone would have removed the foundation of my arguments. It certainly is odd that instead of simply doing that you only mentioned this "clipping" as a vague footnote.

And alongside the above, it does feel a bit odd that you'd mention a "30 second clip" when that's an order of magnitude shorter than my actual test video. Are you certain you watched the right video?

All of which is to say: sus.

But just because it's sus doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong. So could you provide more details about this clipping that would allow others to verify it? The more information you provide, the better we'll be able to see eye-to-eye.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Op, all you do is ask people to "try it and see." You provide data, but have no demonstration to back up said data.

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The test is a demonstration of the data. It answers the question "do macros innately cause action loss".

That said, I understand what you're getting at. You're more or less asking a different but related question: "Yes, you have data that demonstrates that macros don't innately cause action loss, but can a person really use macros in a way that doesn't cost them some amount of action loss?" It's a valid question.

There's a reason I haven't focused on that question, and that's because it's trivially easy to answer: it depends on context, ergo yes.

Because even if macros did cause significant action loss, there are plenty of FF14 players who would still benefit from macros. For example, it's not uncommon for players to have trouble remembering where 30 different actions are on their controller, and when you have trouble finding an action it can end up taking precious seconds to find and use it. Some players will be able to improve and readily access every action in their arsenal, but others will hit a wall. If the use of macros can make actions easier to find for this kind of player, such that they can press the action they want with less delay, then even if the macro loses some frames upon press, the result can be that the players action per minute improves.

However, there can also be the exact opposite result. A player could find macros confusing, could forget which 2 actions are bound to the same button, and thus macros could actually make their play worse, even if macros don't innately have any action loss.

Which is to say, for some people macros will improve play, for others it will hinder it.

What I've learned over and over again throughout the course of my life is that people have different capabilities. Each of us have different strengths and different weaknesses in a variety of areas, and because of that we have different experiences and different challenges. That's why instead of being prescriptive, I instead encourage everyone to give macros a try and see what the impact is. Then depending on their individual results, they can each decide to what degree — if any — they want to keep using macros.

I can barely use a pot after a weapon skill (no not in a macro. Just from the hotbar) without having to time it "just so" without the risk of the pot not going off and me just mashing the button angrily as the rest of the world around me keeps hitting the boss and my opener getting fubard.. my experience has never been great with macros. Timing issues aside, they just get hung up and don't work sometimes.

So I just watched your video, because honestly at this point I figured I'd humor you, and something felt really off, I could notice a delay after every single GCD when using macros. It's really, really noticeable when watching it, I physically felt something was wrong (I have autism so this genuinely triggers that sort of reaction in me when I can tell something is off). I even had to mute the video and watch it without sound to make sure I wasn't imagining it due to the UI sounds.
I even logged into the game and tested my GCD to make sure I wasn't wrong and ground myself to something I can control.

My dude, you are definitely clipping on every single GCD, if you say you're not, I'm convinced you don't actually know what clipping is, or just haven't learned to feel small instances of clipping (similar to how some people can't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps). But you are 100% clipping in your video. The GCD isn't smooth when it rolls over onto the next.
The video I watched, since you called someone else out for using the wrong video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-LgAGXETgA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

The test is a demonstration of the data. It answers the question "do macros innately cause action loss".

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You do not need a video to prove it.
Please refer to the following test method:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rin_Sato

As the following is somewhat related to why macros aren't so great, please do the following for more insight.
Test a macro with the first 14 lines being '/macroerror off' followed by 1 line with '/echo test 1 <se.6>'.
Compare this to a macro with just '/echo test 2 <se.4>'.
Now mash each alternatingly and compare how many of each you get in chat (you will get no instances of test 1 unless you slow down to less than 2 presses a second or so).

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

I must say, it does get frustrating to see misinformation threads like this get bumped up.

Op, or anyone else for that matter, do you have actual hard evidence for the claim that your gcd macros aren't costing you uses? Videos, logs, etc.? Because part of proposing a new theory is proving that theory via testing. Op, all you do is ask people to "try it and see." You provide data, but have no demonstration to back up said data.

Well, I'm now asking you to prove yourself. Share the macros you use, go into a simple fight, execute, and post the video here. I will HAPPILY comb through the video and tell you every instance in which you clipped, as well as let you know how many GCDs you lost. Please tell me if your video isn't 60 fps on your upload location, or let me know when you're done so I can provide a place for you to upload the raw footage.

Uploading to the magic number site will be a big plus. I'd be able to give you exact millisecond figures to go off of.

And, if you don't and you are somehow, magically, as gcd efficient as just hitting a normal button, then you can put that in the op AND I'll find a way to reward you for humoring me.

And no, the 30 second clip in the op doesn't count, even though I can see very clear and obvious clipping in it.

Edit: I have another caviot: if anyone does make a video, it is a REQUIREMENT to prove that you have no add-ons running. There are add-ons that impact how macros function (such as making 0.5 second wait timers work, which op mentioned very early on in the thread, hmmmmm). I feel it'd be disingenuous to say that macros can work when it's really an add-on making them work.

There's several ways to prove that there are none active, so go through a few of them before whichever fight you do.

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I like how OP ignores this entire post except for the 2 parts which he has a very easily dismissive point to make despite asking players to try and disprove him and claiming to be open to it if people can.

I feel like this entire thread could be summarized as:

Quote:

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Q: Should I use a macro for <thing>?

A: It depends.

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The clickbait-ish title does no favors on The Internet, but seriously.

If you're a one-limbed feline suffering from arthritis, then maybe a few well-constructed macros will help you perform better.

If you're a spry, four-limbed human in perfect health, then maybe you have no need for macros.

Apologies for pestering you more, @Lilimo, but after some experimentation I've managed to nearly consolidate everything for Lv 100 BLM to the one set of 16 XHB slots and it feels pretty good! It is a tight squeeze but the core Fire III opener is all done and functional. I'm struggling to figure out what to do with role actions (aside from Swiftcast) and potions, though. In the worst case scenario, I don't suppose I would need to map Sleep or Lucid Dreaming, but I would definitely like access to the rest of them at all times. How do you handle these in your setup? I am trying to avoid manually switching XHB pages back and forth as much as possible, but it seems like this may be a case of a necessary evil. If you want to share notes, I don't mind going over what I've got figured out so far, too. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

My dude, you are definitely clipping on every single GCD, if you say you're not, I'm convinced you don't actually know what clipping is, or just haven't learned to feel small instances of clipping (similar to how some people can't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps). But you are 100% clipping in your video. The GCD isn't smooth when it rolls over onto the next.
The video I watched, since you called someone else out for using the wrong video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-LgAGXETgA

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Can you clarify whether you are you literally talking about every cast in the video, or a subset of casts? I want to make sure I understand what you're saying so I can take a proper look.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rin_Sato

You do not need a video to prove it.
Please refer to the following test method:
As the following is somewhat related to why macros aren't so great, please do the following for more insight.
Test a macro with the first 14 lines being '/macroerror off' followed by 1 line with '/echo test 1 <se.6>'.
Compare this to a macro with just '/echo test 2 <se.4>'.
Now mash each alternatingly and compare how many of each you get in chat (you will get no instances of test 1 unless you slow down to less than 2 presses a second or so).

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I'm genuinely unsure what you think you're demonstrating here. By mashing two macros alternately, each macro has the potential to interrupt both itself and the other macro; that's part of why in my first post I clearly recommend that macros not be mashed. Don't do that and you'll be fine.

As an aside, I've heard from others that /echo has some interesting timing behavior that differs from other macro commands such as /ac, though I haven't looked into it myself since I don't use /echo macros. I can't tell if that's part of what you're seeing since the mashing is obviously going to get in the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

I am very appreciative of this thread @Lilimo! Especially considering Japanese players have no aversion to macros, I was surprised to learn how anti-macro NA appears to be, and how little knowledge about them exists in the English-speaking corners of the web aside from "bad, do not use". I also suffer severe hand health issues from decades of being a software developer and general computer junkie, so I am always on the lookout for ways to make the play experience more comfortable for me. I had a suspicion macros might be able to help, and I'm glad to see someone else of like mind take the charge!

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Thanks for the positive feedback; I genuinely hope that some of the knowledge in this thread can help you play more comfortably and effectively! ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

I wanted to ask specifically what BLM macros you make frequent use of to save hotbar space?

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Sure, I'd be glad to share some of them! First, I'll give an overview of my high-level setup that will probably work for a lot of people.

The way I have my BLM crosshotbars setup, I've got 4 different "loadout" crosshotbars in storage, each for a different purpose:

1. Fire Phase Single Target
2. Ice Phase Single Target
3. Fire Phase Multi Target
4. Ice Phase Multi Target

When I press certain macros, those macros will copy a specific "loadout" crosshotbar to my main crosshotbar. So when I press Blizzard 3 it changes to the Single-Target Ice Crosshotbar, etc. I have a different Transpose macro for each of these 4 bars, so that when I press Transpose it keeps being either Single or Multi target, but swaps to the bar of the other Element. And similarly, I have 4 macros (one for each bar) that don't do anything except swap between Single and Multi target modes.

All of that helps me reduce button bloat by making sure crosshotbar space isn't being wasted by spells I don't need. For example, if I'm doing a single-target boss fight, I won't need to press spells like Freeze or Fire 2. And when I'm in my Ice Phase, I don't need access to spells like Fire, Fire IV, Flare Star, etc. By getting rid of spells we don't need when we don't need them, we can more easily fit spells/abilities we do need into places that are comfortable and easy to access.

So for example, one of the Transposes looks like this:

/ac "Transpose"
/crosshotbar copy BLM 4 BLM 1
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/macroicon "Transpose"

Most of the time I don't need much of any queue padding for abilities, but all the /ac lines are there just because if you slip it'll make things more comfy. And since we're not intentionally taking advantage of any queuing, I put the /macroicon line at the end which will result in less delay at the beginning of the macro. That said, I put the crosshotbar swap on the second line because it's important that that part of the macro not end up interrupted, and on line 2 that won't happen because I don't mash my macros.

So that's the high-level part that I think the most people will probably benefit from. As for my specific macros, they're a bit in flux right now, as I'm still in the process of iteratively adjusting them to the Dawntrail BLM changes; that's something I've been doing over time to really get a feel for what's comfy, what's not quite there, if there are any situations that cause issues, etc.

I have two other macros that might be worth sharing, but they're both pretty simple. That said, they demonstrate techniques that can be used in a lot of different circumstances!

This one combines Fire IV and Flare Star into a single button, as during standard play there will never be a situation where you could cast either Flare Star or Fire IV. By alternating them on each line, we take advantage of queuing behavior while minimizing the possible frame delay to 1 at most and 0.5 on average.

/macroicon "Flare IV"
/macroerror off
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"

I have a similar macro that combines Flare and Flare Star.

This is probably also a good time to talk about being strategic with where you place /macroicon lines. I tend to like placing this line at the beginning of a macro because it's more common to continue chaining casts than to start a new chain after not casting. This means that when starting from a scratch, there will always be a 2 frame delay before these spells start to cast, however when chaining those 2 frames will just be additional queuing time that won't result in any delay because I've pressed my button in advance.

This next one is really simple, combining Manafont and Fire 3 into a single button. When I want to combine buttons, I generally try to have a concept that they both fall under, and this is a "Begin Fire Phase" button. So if you queue this for a GCD, you'll get Fire 3, but if your GCD isn't available you'll get Manafont. I have a non-cross hotbar positioned below my actual crosshotbar, and I use it to display icons for spells/abilities that I want to know information about. That way even though the icon for this macro shows information on Fire III, I can tell what the cooldown status of Manafont is by looking slightly below it.

/macroicon "Fire III"
/macroerror off
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Manafont"

I think that's most of what's worth sharing from my BLM, though if you really want to see all the rest, let me know and I can throw together a quick video for you; that'll be way easier than typing them all out since they're on my PS5! ^^

Anyway, hope this ended up being interesting, and thanks again for the positive feedback!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

The clickbait-ish title does no favors on The Internet, but seriously.

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The title was never intended to be clickbait, but hindsight is 20/20. If I had it to do again, I would use a different title. Unfortunately, titles are the one part of posts that can't be edited.

When I made my initial post, it was in response to the Balance Discord's purported evidence of how macros cause lost casts, which demonstrated with a video that showed that macros innately resulted in a loss of almost 5% of your APM. That was a significant amount, and I understood why people cared about it. I did the tests and was able to debunk that specific video, demonstrating that it was possible to use macros without incurring that loss. It seemed like a very straightforward debunk, and I naively thought players would simply be relieved to not have to worry about such a significant loss to their APM.

What I had not anticipated was that some players were worried about losing 0.007% of their APM and considered this to be meaningfully different than 0%. Nor had I anticipated that some players would believe it was inevitable that every player would fail to press a button within a 10-frame window. I had vastly underestimated the extent to which a subset of players desired perfection with no chance of failure, while at the same time turning a blind eye to the fact that perfection was already out of reach of many players. Of course, now I know.

So if I had it to do again, I would frame it all differently. Even though as best I can tell the evidence I provided demonstrates that there is no loss, I wouldn't use absolute terms like that "not"; that's the big change I'd make. Maybe I'd use the word "innately". I'd try to make a better title that succinctly described the idea that macros don't innately cause a meaningful loss in APM, while trying to avoid subjective words like "meaningful"; that way players who find 0.007% APM to be meaningful don't feel like I'm dismissing them.

That said, I wouldn't summarize the post as "to some it's this, and to others it's this". The real value of my post is in explaining the mechanics of how macros function, as well as their pros and cons. It's not meant to be prescriptive, it's meant to be informative. In that respect, even though I would change the title, I'm satisfied with the post's contents.

But yeah, hindsight is 20/20. ^^