Devs Please Be Careful Not To Disrespect Real Native Cultures In The New World

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Originally Posted by catgirlcrisis

y'all have been nothing but nasty, mean, and dismissive to OP. all of you crying and whini... yada yada yada

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https://i.imgflip.com/7g5wuv.jpg

First one to find the answer gets 500gil from me if they're on NA.

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Originally Posted by catgirlcrisis

works of fiction can...

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You realize this reads like "When they're portraying a culture that I don't care about in a bad light, I'm fine with it", right? It's okay to critique a real world religion but not to portray another's religious adornments? Why's that? It's okay to critique one culture (Europe) but not another (Latin America)? Why's that? The only difference seems to be you don't care about or dislike one, and thus are fine with it, while you care about/like another, and so want it to get special treatment.

As for your remarks on your own culture - do you think all of China is like Doma and all of Japan like Kugane? These aren't portrayals of cultures, they're things inspired by them, which are always going to be a simplified version of them. Where was an in-depth analysis of Shinto shown in Kugane? Oh, right, no where. How thoroughly was India's cultural diversity fully explored in Thavnair? Oh right, it wasn't, either.

That's the way fictional inspiration (not representation) of cultures works. There is no way to fully present them in a game/movie/etc work, you kind of hit the high/most recognizable notes.

And yes, works of fiction CAN influence the real world. In FFXIV thus far, the work of fiction has consistently been about working together and being kind and compassionate to others, even those who are different, making friends and being cool to people. I'm not sure what "real impact" you expect is going to come out negatively from this.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

As a latino, I find it disgusting how white folk have gotten this agenda to be "offended" for us as if we asked for them to be our voice for cultural appropriation.

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It's not everyone. Unfortunately, in white majority Western nations, this seems to be a thing from people on the "social justice" bandwagon. They've convinced themselves their nations and countrymen did a historically unprecedented evil with slavery (generally) and racism (more generally) and imperialism (still more generally), ignore that this was true across most cultures for literally all of pre-modern history, and that they need to redeem their societies and drag them kicking and screaming in penance over it by being overly sensitive to anything relating to non-white Western peoples and quick to signal how virtuous they are despite their ancestry on such topics. Progressive white Americans are the only group in the nation with an "outgroup preference" (that is, they prefer people of any race other than their own over their own) that exists.

It's born from an anti-historical myopia and cultural centrism, and also leads them to embrace the very "white savior" complex that looks down on non-white peoples as needing to be "saved" (conveniently, by them, allowing them to "be on the right side of history"). Sadly, it's not really about the people they claim to want to save, it's about them and their misguided sense of penance for wrongs committed centuries before they were born that were ubiquitous globally to begin with.

And it's shocking to me they don't see how "These people need ME to defend them and speak on their behalf in service to my own personal redemption story!" isn't treating the minorities they claim to want to protect like weak children who can't speak for themselves, or worse, mere props in their personal ego trip.

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As I said in my first post: Let people speak for themselves.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

The moderators really need to handle people like you who bait, and ruin the posts on these forums. These forums run rampant without moderation, and it shows. There needs to be actual consequences for the constant trolling, and brigading on here. It's a common sentiment in the fandom that the forums are a place you should never ever go to, or else be at your own risk of stress.

That is an embarrassing problem for a fandom to have. There has to be a middle ground between the excessive moderating we had earlier in FFXIVs forums, to the rampant trolling and brigading that happens now. You guys are being so unfair to me, and I'm not going to just sit here and be called a troll. I am not hiding behind anything. Google me. I'm literally by the name I use on here, there is NOTHING troll about me. I am just a fan with concerns trying to voice my concerns, but you guys get a kick out of laughing, brigading, and bullying people in this community. You troll me excessively hard, because unlike other people on here, I don't just sit by and say its okay. I stand up for myself, and tell people that I am uncomfortable. I know you won't stop, even if I ask you to, so I'm not going to waste my breath, but I will point out that people are getting fed up with this place, and the day will come that all this brigading, and bullying will be put to rest. It can only happen for so long before it breaks, and the fandom has an incident. All it takes is one media article for the company to wake up, and put the bad behavior on these forums to rest.

Instead of pushing peoples buttons, and making people feel worse about themselves, you should use this freedom, and lack of moderation for good. We are taking the relaxed mentality the mods have on these forums for granted. This freedom to say whatever we want here can be taken away. Not that you care, I know these trolls won't. They'll find some other games community to break.

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I just wanted to mention this: As I said in my first reply, I suspect you're well-meaning. I think you're wrong and need to take a step back, but I don't think you're a bad person.

And as much as I agree with Koros (in this one and only instance, apparently), I agree with you on the moderation/trolling/bullying (as a frequent recipient of it myself) and how it looks to the community who DON'T frequent these forums.

Not everyone replying to you is bullying - I'm not - so note that some are just saying they disagree with your position, and they're worth listening to.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

How hard is it to realize that I'm being bullied. Look at the disgusting tags people added to this thread in order to harass me. I'm definitely filing some reports, though I do want to stay civil, so I won't mention who. Just please do not harass, or target me. I'm not doing anything wrong by posting a concern that was meant to be kind.

Mods really need to step in and clear the trolls, and brigaders out of this forum. Again, there is a reason people call this place the worst place in the fandom to be. The majority of the playerbase does not like the forum culture here, and finds the forums too hostile to interact in. FFXIV forums are too toxic.

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If you honestly think you're being bullied, you've not spent much time outside in the real world...

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Originally Posted by catgirlcrisis

if you're a non-latino, you're allowed to go, "i may be overly cautious here, but i hope square enix (a company with a not-so-perfect track record, but which has at least attempted to show some decency and respect to other cultures and depictions of those cultures) is careful with their representation here..." that's literally such a non-issue. if you're going to jump to "CANCEL CULTURE" and "WOKE SJW TWITTERITE SNOWFLAKES" (and "you're not even latino!" when you, yourself, aren't latino either) instead of, i dunno, bothering to critically engage with something, then you honestly don't deserve to be heard at all. leave the real discussions to people who are willing to give a shit.

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If it's such a non issue, then it didn't need a thread even made about it. There's no discussion to be had because it's dumb. I'm speaking on behalf of being a gamer, doesn't matter if I'm Latino or not. Gamers want fun games in fun settings.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

youre not being bullied. people disagree with your position

how sad that your response to criticism is to cry and play the victim

sad!

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Nah, he's definitely being bullied. You guys are repeating yourselves and haranguing him. If you are making a legitimate point about "shouldn't white knight a culture who didn't ask", its already been made. A lot.

Ya'll can ease off now. Kicking someone when they're down is bullying them.

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Originally Posted by catgirlcrisis

leave the real discussions to people who are willing to give a shit.

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this is like a pointless debate on both sides since the dev team has explicitly said that they will be careful with the representation.

and honestly what is there to think critically about? what is there to think critically about thavnair...? does the game touch on the legacy of ottoman imperialism? does the game touch on the religious fragmentation of british india (see india and pakistan tensions)? does the game actually dissect how hinduism and indian culture interact... beyond just a mere reference, even if respectful?

this is a shallow game when it comes to cultural depictions. and the stuff that you talk about: fascism is bad... that is literally the most pointless theme ever, because everyone agrees fascism is bad. what's more interesting is why fascism arises, and how we can prevent it. nothing of the sort in this game. the few times we see people who are nationalist, especially in recent garlean plotlines, they suddenly become COEX1ST global citizens after two cutscenes. What makes you think this game is deserving of such analysis? It can't even depict a single "fascist" or "nationalist" right. Fascism has no teeth in this story, it doesn't even feel scary or oppressive. It just feels like a way for us to get to the Lv83 dungeon.

tl;dr this game is shallow you're thinking too hard about it.

Thank goodness we're finally tackling real problems in the 21st century, one final fantasy pixel at a time.

I get offended by people who get offended over minor things that hurt no one in real life. I get offended when people make white people or the west as imperialistic evil. I get offended when my fellow gamers from other countries think the USA and its playerbase is awful and should be ignored / neglected. So what are we gonna do about all that stuff that offends me? Nothing? I gotta suck it up? The saying "to bad to sad?" well then if I have to live with being offended like this so to does the rest of the world when it doesn't actually really hurt anyone.

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Originally Posted by catgirlcrisis

y'all have been nothing but nasty, mean, and dismissive to OP. all of you crying and whining about how "don't speak on this if you aren't latino!" are probably not even latino yourselves, but you're so quick to jump in and isolate this fight into Latinos vs. Everyone Else. as a latino... i find this extremely weird behavior! hm! why might Non-latinos want people who are Not Latinos to shut up about a Latino Issue? could it be... to weaken Latino voices being amplified...? could it be... to silence valid concerns being raised? huh... maybe, just maybe...

it's just jawdropping to see so many people raise a "it's a fictional world with fictional cultures and therefore has absolutely no real effect on the real-world" argument regarding a game which draws from real-life inspiration to promote certain messaging in its themes. for example: Fascism... is bad. Colonialism and imperialism... is bad. Capitalist systems...are convenient for the wealthy, who can afford luxury, but are quick to screw over non-subservient working class people. yes, it's a fictional story. so are all of Aesop's fables, and yet i really hope y'all clearly had no issues comprehending those as stories used to teach when y'all were kids. the complete refusal to engage with a story and its themes critically is astounding. FFXIV doesn't ask much of the player, either. like, y'all realize fictional stories have always had, and will always have, an impact on real-world people, real-world societies, and real-world perceptions of cultures, right?

i have no problem discussing something like this with other latinos - i, myself, am really excited to see more of latinoamerican culture have the spotlight! i love to see that other latinos are really excited about this new expansion and are picking up on inspiration from indigenous cultures, from countries like brasil and peru! but when i engage other latinos in a discussion like that, we think critically about ALL the implications a story, its cast, and its themes may have, and i expect non-latinos to be able to do this too. if you're a non-latino, you're allowed to go, "i may be overly cautious here, but i hope square enix (a company with a not-so-perfect track record, but which has at least attempted to show some decency and respect to other cultures and depictions of those cultures) is careful with their representation here..." that's literally such a non-issue. if you're going to jump to "CANCEL CULTURE" and "WOKE SJW TWITTERITE SNOWFLAKES" (and "you're not even latino!" when you, yourself, aren't latino either) instead of, i dunno, bothering to critically engage with something, then you honestly don't deserve to be heard at all. leave the real discussions to people who are willing to give a shit.

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well the op does this for some sort of validation or just to stir something . Lets see made one for dwarfs for endwalker saying calling them are offensive. He made one about how the omega statues emote was distasteful, made a post about the whole add on for the zoom hack. Made a thread saying he keeps getting bullied. heck i can even remember he complained about the time needed to get glamour set back in stormblood. so yeah when it comes to the op he has a track record on here.

Just letting you all know, I still haven't changed my opinion. People should be understanding, and kind to others. Not going to turn back on that. ^^;

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Just letting you all know, I still haven't changed my opinion. People should be understanding, and kind to others. Not going to turn back on that. ^^;

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your opinion was never changing, dont fool anyone lol

but the response overall that I have personally seen observing people talk about the expansion theme is that most central/south American players are VERY excited about it. The only real complainers have been people attempting to get huffy for someone else, which is an irritating situation.

the dev team touched that they are aware during fanfest, theres really no need to stress about people being upset any further until something egregious actually shows up

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Just letting you all know, I still haven't changed my opinion. People should be understanding, and kind to others. Not going to turn back on that. ^^;

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Which is really sad cause exactly that is the mindset all of the people who discriminate etc. live by. No change in opinion. No seeing your own flaws. Your point of view so absolute that you can't even consider changing it even if the whole world would tell you it is kinda weird and strange.

If you want to help people, go out there and fight real discrimination instead of trying to feel good and like you did something just cause you "protected" some minorities from being disrespected by a fictional story. There are real people, having real struggles out there and you decided the best use of your time is to create a problem around something that hurts people actually the least.

Maybe you should self reflect sometimes.

"Critical thinking" is a social media buzzword imported from academia that loosely translates to: "find new ways to preemptively invalidate anyone who even might disagree with you, so you can always be right." It should not, under any circumstances, be mistaken for actual thinking, or for requiring any particular critical faculties. Indeed, it's the reason social justice agendas have entirely stalled out into partisan BS over the last half-decade or so, because everyone's now so fixated on making sure nobody can prove them even slightly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

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Originally Posted by Renathras

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https://i.imgur.com/xl3soCu.gif

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Just letting you all know, I still haven't changed my opinion.

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Me neither

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Originally Posted by Fenral

"Critical thinking" is a social media buzzword imported from academia that loosely translates to: "find new ways to preemptively invalidate anyone who even might disagree with you, so you can always be right." It should not, under any circumstances, be mistaken for actual thinking, or for requiring any particular critical faculties. Indeed, it's the reason social justice agendas have entirely stalled out into partisan BS over the last half-decade or so, because everyone's now so fixated on making sure nobody can prove them even slightly wrong.

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That's why you meld for direct thinking and not critical thinking.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Just letting you all know, I still haven't changed my opinion. People should be understanding, and kind to others. Not going to turn back on that. ^^;

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Oh we know.
This isn't about you changing your mind, or even defending cultures.
This is about you feeling good about yourself by being the whitest of knights, protecting those too dumb, too poor, or too iliterate to defend themselves, according to your own twisted perspective of the world.

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Originally Posted by Aldath

I'm a mexican, and the trailer shows inspiration from mesoamerican cultures, not native american.
Plenty of mexican friends are excited too, and we find it funny is non-mexicans who usually get offended with this...

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It's always been mostly white north american or british people getting offended on other cultures and ethnicities' behalf.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

It's always been mostly white north american or british people getting offended on other cultures and ethnicities' behalf.

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white guilt and white savior complexes are honestly truly insufferable

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

That's why you meld for direct thinking and not critical thinking.

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https://external-content.duckduckgo....53d&ipo=images

Instead of worrying about pixel places and people go help irl. Being offended by pixels is so strange.

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Originally Posted by catgirlcrisis

. kungane is literally based on asian cultures and countries...............

i'll put in my two cents as a latina: i need to see more of this expansion before i can fully judge it, but so far, i'm not enjoying this take on latinoamerican cultures as one blendered mix of just... whatever. all latinoamerican countries have such distinct practices, histories, societies, etc. it's not uncommon for people to just assume we're all the same. but latinoamerican cultures are actually very diverse,

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Soooo You not even gonna talk about your hypocrisy? You think every european country is a monarchy? The history of Fae which comes from mostly european germanic, and gallic tribal people but it was blended with european monarchy. Thats what fantasy does. It blends things. Much like Kugane that blends Japaense lore with Mongolian lore mixed with more stuff. This is eorzea, not earth. They are not gonna perfectly represent the nuances in your culture. It will be blended with random stuff. It could be a mezoamerican deity with a navajo government and a inca diet if they want to.

Mao thinkings First Nations Peoples whats not offended by these depictions of thems cultures know somethings VERY importants. If knowledge and traditions nots shared with other peoples, thems knowledge and traditions will gradually wither and die. Knowledge and traditions become stronger when more peoples adopt thems. As long as is done with respects, Mao thinkings is ok for others to partakes. Is how Human societies grow and prosper over times....by adopting customs and technologies from each others.

Well, this thread full of white people arguing with themselves about what is or isn't offensive to non-white people while trying to "high moral ground" each other has certainly been entertaining.

You're being pretty offensive by lumping all Native American cultures under one handle. Why don't you instead list some of the ones who might actually be offended? Not every culture under the Native American umbrella conforms to the same standards.

https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-...5648a5a4_1.jpg

Reminder that OP complained that an emote was oppressing them because they couldn't afford the omega statue.

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

Reminder that OP complained that an emote was oppressing them because they couldn't afford the omega statue.

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Reminder that you’re just being petty now.

American moral imperialism, modern video games blight.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

https://i.imgflip.com/7g5wuv.jpg

First one to find the answer gets 500gil from me if they're on NA.

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I guess no one could ever find who asked rofl

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I guess no one could ever find who asked rofl

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https://youtu.be/6-vuncdgkp4

WHO

I wonder if SE will bring the Colonization System back from FFXI lol. Expansion looks really Adoulin-esque.

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Originally Posted by Magis

I wonder if SE will bring the Colonization System back from FFXI lol. Expansion looks really Adoulin-esque.

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I hope they bring colonization from the adoulin expansion and besieged from aht urghan

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

And now that the veteran fanbase is upset with these changes, we're being told to just leave because the game 'was never for us anyways' by people who hate everything Final Fantasy XIV used to be.

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The current changes and negatives of FF are due to the dev team being stretched to thin,
They are doing massive updates to the game, and using simple development methods to update the current content.
Deep dungeons are just copy and past, which is why we got one for 90. Along with islands that take very little development cost.

In many ways i agree with you, Sadly FF had to start using tactics to reduce costs and simplify things. (this was always going to happen It is inevitable for long-term "MMOs")
Add in the fact that the player base is growing faster than they can really keep up with,
sadly quality control aspects of the game just can't keep up ether.

The entire story from ARR -> End Walker, is a poem for the older generation of players.
That literally says: without you, none of this would be possible.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

There is no issue giving an under represented culture a moment via high fantasy, but if you all remember the in game Native American headdress controversy, which actually did upset people of specific communities, this expansion has to tread carefully.

Again, I think it’s really cool that they are doing this, but one misstep, and the media will never let it down. Especially after the comments about FFXVI being supposedly racist. Division III needs to be careful with racial comments, and how they represent cultures from now on.

I hope that the players, especially here in North America are not shy to mention if the dev team messes up on any of the representation. They need to hear it from us first. I do not believe the devs are intentionally racist, or harmful to any group of people. Yoshi P and his team are much more progressive than the majority of Japan. I do think they will listen to us if such a misstep happens. There have been numerous missteps that got fixed.

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The main problem with you guys up north is that, when something offends you, you won't shup up about it until a new thing that offends you passes by to distract you, and the media only latches on to the loud bunch to make clickbait out of it.

Honestly... just stop it. Sincerely, as someone who lives in south america and absolutely abhors that middle class first world teens (or people who hasn't outgrown their teen years) are getting offended on my behalf when the only thing that offends me, is not whatever will come in Dawntrail, but the constant incapability of distinguishing between fiction and reality and essentially comparing everyone under the Equator line to lizards. Just please stop.

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Originally Posted by Midare

The main problem with you guys up north is that, when something offends you, you won't shup up about it until a new thing that offends you passes by to distract you, and the media only latches on to the loud bunch to make clickbait out of it.

Honestly... just stop it. Sincerely, as someone who lives in south america and absolutely abhors that middle class first world teens (or people who hasn't outgrown their teen years) are getting offended on my behalf when the only thing that offends me, is not whatever will come in Dawntrail, but the constant incapability of distinguishing between fiction and reality and essentially comparing everyone under the Equator line to lizards. Just please stop.

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The op to me just seems to be argumentative and gets easily offended over things especially when there not a part of the culture there feeling offended over. Especially when they brought up "my native American friend got offended over a glam head piece so i felt offended with them".

The whole thing is just....bored white guy offended on behalf of brown people.

It's the whole Speedy Gonzales thing. Bored white people decided it was too offensive to Mexicans, Mexicans pissed off because they loved Speedy.

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

The whole thing is just....bored white guy offended on behalf of brown people.

It's the whole Speedy Gonzales thing. Bored white people decided it was too offensive to Mexicans, Mexicans pissed off because they loved Speedy.

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To be fair, I'm white and I don't think like the OP. And I've seen non-white people make these kinda of arguments on things. (Mostly on TikTok. /shudder) Though the majority who have this attitude tend to be white, its not a race thing, its an ideological thing.

https://media.tenor.com/Q4kf4VAIRDIA...psons-exit.gif

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

To be fair, I'm white and I don't think like the OP. And I've seen non-white people make these kinda of arguments on things. (Mostly on TikTok. /shudder) Though the majority who have this attitude tend to be white, its not a race thing, its an ideological thing.

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I mean, so am I, but I don't spend a lot of time on any social media so I'm only drawing from people I know in-person that behave that way.