6.4 patch speculation

ASURA CONFIRMED AS A TRIAL FOR THE FUTURE, I REPEAT, ASURA CONFIRMED!

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

So, the question is, are we calling Themis (and Lahabrea) back from the dead with Azem crystal's weird McGuffin-y powers, or are they going to time travel with us to the present.

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Deep enough in the aetherial sea that time loses meaning maybe?

Hancock is a Hingashi lord? My foot. I hope he's just a middle man. It is interesting that there look to be servants at the start of the different paths. Looks to be another set of 12 stories to collect. I'm a little sad that they didn't show us a small sneak peak at the Tataru quest than what they have already shown. If the that boss from V&C are anything to go by we might as some have guessed be dealing with one of the more hidden ninja clans.

A few screenshots regarding Panda raid.

You can see Erichtonios in the background and the entire Pandemonium castle, so this sequence is definitely in the '' past. ''

https://i.imgur.com/2XXZFaC.png

There's someone standing on the entrace to the castle in current timeline. It might honestly just be us, but it just caught my eye because no figure is seen standing there in the cutscenes in 6.2

https://i.imgur.com/FpAy7JZ.png

Nothing really else stuck out from the trailer. But the live letter showcase had bits of the first boss, and you could hear a very normal female voice during the battle, on top of a male one. Wonder what that was about. It didn't sound menacing enough to be Athena though.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Hancock is a Hingashi lord? My foot. I hope he's just a middle man. It is interesting that there look to be servants at the start of the different paths. Looks to be another set of 12 stories to collect. I'm a little sad that they didn't show us a small sneak peak at the Tataru quest than what they have already shown. If the that boss from V&C are anything to go by we might as some have guessed be dealing with one of the more hidden ninja clans.

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Yeah Hancock is likely just the middleman between us and whoever owns that place.

It bothers me that Themis and Lahabrea are human-sized. They shouldn't be, they and Pandaemonium should be giants; it's not just correct, it's also much more interesting in terms of cutscene structure. But of course, I'm not tremendously surprised to see an Ancient story take the less interesting option.

Far more interesting to me in all this is learning that Mount Rokkon is going to be a journey alongside Hancock. That doesn't just confirm for sure that it's Hingan, but also confirms this is gonna be fun as hell, Hancock is an amazing pick for a character to have this sort of adventure alongside. I don't like him as a person, but he is solidly fun in a 'love to hate' way, and a capitalist with actual cultural curiosity (albeit mostly because it's something to profit from) is a genuinely solid angle for worldbuilding-centric content like a variant dungeon.

We don't know how much of this segment of the raid will be in the present or the past. If any of it deals with us conjuring up people via memories... well we already know the WoL's memory is somewhat borked. After all both Meteion, UT Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch should have been 20ft tall.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

Nothing really else stuck out from the trailer. But the live letter showcase had bits of the first boss, and you could hear a very normal female voice during the battle, on top of a male one. Wonder what that was about. It didn't sound menacing enough to be Athena though.

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Cocytus seems to be an amalgamation of numerous souls given its gimmick is absorbing them then executing mechanics in turn.

It wouldn't surprise me if the different voices end up being the tells for mechanics on Savage because it's unusual for a first fight in a raid tier to be voice-acted.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Far more interesting to me in all this is learning that Mount Rokkon is going to be a journey alongside Hancock. That doesn't just confirm for sure that it's Hingan, but also confirms this is gonna be fun as hell, Hancock is an amazing pick for a character to have this sort of adventure alongside. I don't like him as a person, but he is solidly fun in a 'love to hate' way, and a capitalist with actual cultural curiosity (albeit mostly because it's something to profit from) is a genuinely solid angle for worldbuilding-centric content like a variant dungeon.

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Originally Posted by 6.4 site update

On Hingashi's westernmost isle of Shishu lies the long-venerated Mount Rokkon. Once refuge for humble monks and weary pilgrims, the holy site has fallen to a host of malevolent spirits of the most curious shapes and sizes...

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Shishu is the island Kugane is on and I was hoping for a foray onto the main island of Koshu, but this is better than nothing. I hope we find out more about what's going on there since of all the countries that we've actually visited, Hingashi is the one we know the least about.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Cocytus seems to be an amalgamation of numerous souls given its gimmick is absorbing them then executing mechanics in turn.

It wouldn't surprise me if the different voices end up being the tells for mechanics on Savage because it's unusual for a first fight in a raid tier to be voice-acted.

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That could make sense.

I might have just dreamt this up but I feel like there was an interview or a live letter translation where Yoshi-P mentioned that they would like to have the last part of the Pandemonium raid to be voiced, or at least alluded to the fact that Elidibus/Themis would have a cutscene (or several) voiced in it, but I can't say for sure.

There’s a rat boss theme developing in these variant dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

There’s a rat boss theme developing in these variant dungeons.

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But this one plays music. I want to say there is a story that is pied piper-ish where a mouse/rat demon plays music to whisk away bad children but I'm having a hard time searching for it.

Having seen the trailer finally, so it's hinted that we'll be fighting the hero of the 13th, our shard. Now whether that's Golbez or the one sealed in the moon (notice the black portal in it at the end?) remains to be seen.

Tried to send this at 10:10AM EST this morning, but apparently was out of posts. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

That could make sense.

I might have just dreamt this up but I feel like there was an interview or a live letter translation where Yoshi-P mentioned that they would like to have the last part of the Pandemonium raid to be voiced, or at least alluded to the fact that Elidibus/Themis would have a cutscene (or several) voiced in it, but I can't say for sure.

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It may just be in-duty, similar to the way we got to hear Ryne and Gaia in the Eden raids? But I def wouldn't be opposed to a return to the Coils format, where key scenes in the final tier were voiced.

That said... while Matt Stokoe gave a great performance, please let him be recast for the character's current iteration, if indeed we do hear him speak again. It was jarring enough hearing that voice come out of Themis's mouth in 6.0's post-credit teaser lmao.

I'm rather curious what the latter two Anabaseios bosses are because it seems like we're already fighting Pandaemonium itself as the second boss...or at least I'm assuming that's what the skull-faced abomination is judging from it having pieces of the facility embedded in its body as well seeming to be formed around the heart-like core we see emerging from the structure.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm rather curious what the latter two Anabaseios bosses are because it seems like we're already fighting Pandaemonium itself as the second boss...or at least I'm assuming that's what the skull-faced abomination is judging from it having pieces of the facility embedded in its body as well seeming to be formed around the heart-like core we see emerging from the structure.

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We already know the last one will likely be Athena. I'm suspecting either our poor boy Eric will be corrupted again for our fight against him, or we're once again going to have to slap some sense into Lahabrea.

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

It may just be in-duty, similar to the way we got to hear Ryne and Gaia in the Eden raids? But I def wouldn't be opposed to a return to the Coils format, where key scenes in the final tier were voiced.

That said... while Matt Stokoe gave a great performance, please let him be recast for the character's current iteration, if indeed we do hear him speak again. It was jarring enough hearing that voice come out of Themis's mouth in 6.0's post-credit teaser lmao.

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Definitely have to agree on this. He did great in 5.3 and previous. His voice really worked for possessed Ardbert, the first WoL, and faceless Elidibus. But Themis just…. It’s so odd hearing that voice from that face.

Bonus point if they recast and we can say he sounds different. “Sorry, *clears throat* I seem to be coming down with a bit of a cold. Don’t worry on my account.” Then it’s canon he sounds like that cus he got made the heart of Zodiark while he had laryngitis.

So the Golbez dialogue in the trailer is a flashback addressing the Four Fiends even if the trailer tries to misdirect to make it seem like he’s imploring the WoL. But my theory is the flashback where Zero lore dumps on the two knights of Baron and we see the giant Highlander with eyebrows, pale hair in a new style, and the likely original identity of Golbez. The second knight, the dark haired Midlander, looks like Zero - so my theory is that he’s her father of whom we’d learned nothing about. This Echo flashback isn’t from Zero’s pov but her mother, and Zero is retelling the story she learned of how her parents met.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

So the Golbez dialogue in the trailer is a flashback addressing the Four Fiends even if the trailer tries to misdirect to make it seem like he’s imploring the WoL. But my theory is the flashback where Zero lore dumps on the two knights of Baron and we see the giant Highlander with eyebrows, pale hair in a new style, and the likely original identity of Golbez. The second knight, the dark haired Midlander, looks like Zero - so my theory is that he’s her father of whom we’d learned nothing about. This Echo flashback isn’t from Zero’s pov but her mother, and Zero is retelling the story she learned of how her parents met.

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Paladin Zero is in the background during that scene. So, whose PoV we're watching the sepia tone flashback from its not her mom's. At least not before she's born. It's most likely a dark haired Cecil. Though the Caduceus looking pattern on the dark hair guy's shirt could be something. A few things I noticed is in the scenes where it looks like Zero is about to freak out or go to town on the Loporrits the WoL and Urianger are in the background. Then the Rokkon bos with the white cape I guess is going to fight us with a smoking pipe? And has the same movements of turning around that the last boss of Hero's Gauntlet has.

It doesn’t look like Zero is gonna attack the lopporits to me. Livingway is much too calm. It looked like she was unleashing void magic/darkness by request, and the power surprised them. Prolly has something to do with setting up a void gate on the moon.

The Zero scene with loporitts looks like a comedic one honestly.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

The Zero scene with loporitts looks like a comedic one honestly.

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Yeah it screams trailer misdirect - just a comedic ‘Zero reveals she’s half-voidsent’ for Loporrit levity while teasing all the Zeromus theorists.

I don’t see anyone else mentioning this so: I find it interesting that the source is being referred to as “the Promised Land, land of boundless aether”. So we also have FF7 references, not just FF4.

I mean, arguably we had 7 parallels in Endwalker. The Amaurotines were equivalent to “cetra”, and we even have a threat from space that, in a way, fed off of despair. (Tho Meteion is really not anywhere near the Jenova parasite’s malevolence level.)

But it’s just kinda neat to *be* from “the promised land” in this scenario. Also, gives me hope that, if cetra really are gonna equate to the ancients of the unsundered world, maybe we’ll get more of them? Two directions that could go: more Unsundered World, either via time travel or other means like memory diving maybe. Or it could imply we might meet and deal with some of the remaining ascians. I’d like either one.

Also, to continue the 7 parallels, we know the war on the 13th was called the contra memoria, which I think means something like “against memory”. The importance and power of memory is a huge thing in 7. Arguably, Sephiroth uses Cloud’s memory of him to remain anchored to existence during the compilation. Jenova used people’s memories of their dead loved ones against them. The lifestream in 7 is essentially the colllective consciousness of the planet and made up of the memories and soul energy of the dead, which also serves to feed Jenova/Sephiroth when it’s corrupted into “negative lifestream”.

I have no idea where these concepts are going, but I think we can safely say there are bits and pieces of them present now in the 13th and also during endwalker itself and it’s interesting.

Am certainly curious regarding how Vrtra finally meeting his imprisoned sister is going to play out!

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Though the Caduceus looking pattern on the dark hair guy's shirt could be something.

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The piece he's wearing is a dyed Blade's Casting top from Zadnor, which is a recolored version of the Healer's top which is part of Larsa's outfit from Final Fantasy XII.

The Caduceus, traditionally related to medicine is associated with the character of Hermes in XIV and it's also a literal boss in the Binding Coil.

In this case it's probably nothing tho. Although I bet the character is a caster, but even that could be nothing. Golbez wears a mix of Striking and Fending gear as well, so they don't care about that sort of stuff.

Yeah, they frequently just blend 'what looks good for the character' across roles and sources to the point where it never really means anything. Deryk from the Twelve raids is wearing a Tower at Paradigm's Breach headpiece.

Ok, my Pandemonium theory is that the sundering happened while the 3 unsundered are in the present within pandemonium. Which means the next time we see Elidibus, he's already the heart of Zodiark and the Final Days already happened from their PoV.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Ok, my Pandemonium theory is that the sundering happened while the 3 unsundered are in the present within pandemonium. Which means the next time we see Elidibus, he's already the heart of Zodiark and the Final Days already happened from their PoV.

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This is possible if there's a sufficiently long time-skip between Abyssos and Anabaseios. If that is the case, however, then we'll likely never find out what Azem's connection to the story at the start was, and the significance of the omen that they predicted.

I'm curious about the big yellow thing that was destroying Pandaemonium. And is Elidibus at the Aitiascope?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This is possible if there's a sufficiently long time-skip between Abyssos and Anabaseios. If that is the case, however, then we'll likely never find out what Azem's connection to the story at the start was, and the significance of the omen that they predicted.

I'm curious about the big yellow thing that was destroying Pandaemonium. And is Elidibus at the Aitiascope?

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Someone here on this forum (I can't remember who it was sorry!) recently speculated it's actually meant to be Pandemona (as in, the wind Guardian Force from FFVIII), which makes sense given Panademona's Japanese name was literally Pandaemonium (due to lack of text space they had to shorten the name). Remember the post EW ending stinger cutscene showed Themis mentioning Pandaemonium as a "beast" not as a place, and that would seem to give credence to that theory. Of course that is just my speculation though.

The raid gear appears to be "aetherial sea" themed.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Someone here on this forum (I can't remember who it was sorry!) recently speculated it's actually meant to be Pandemona (as in, the wind Guardian Force from FFVIII), which makes sense given Panademona's Japanese name was literally Pandaemonium (due to lack of text space they had to shorten the name). Remember the post EW ending stinger cutscene showed Themis mentioning Pandaemonium as a "beast" not as a place, and that would seem to give credence to that theory. Of course that is just my speculation though.

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Additionally, every raid series has been based around an icon FF summon or notorious boss. Bahamut, Alexander, Omega, Eden. It only follows the pattern for Pandaemonium to be an entity itself too.

We also generally fought "[Raid Name] Prime" at some point in the raid. Usually at the end but Eden put Eden Prime right as the first fight. While Pandaemonium is really more "FF2 Pandaemonium" in theme, I wouldn't be surprised if they pull a double duty and we end up fighting the Guardian Force for reference's sake.

So, what's the guesses for who actually sent the crystal forward that started our involvement in Pandamonium in the first place? I'm btwn Elidibus and Ericthonios. The message sounds less collected than Elidibus ever comes across, while Eric is emotionally invested in Pandamonium's situation. But on the other hand, Elidibus sending it and being the one to close the timeloop would work really well. But on the other other hand, Elidibus is almost guaranteed to already get an emotional moment when we finally see him swear his half forgotten oath to us before we part (assuming that speculation on my part is right ofc), while Eric would still need his own moment for the end.

Of course... the crystal in question has a previously broken bit that is fused back on, which could hint at Lahabrea. Plus, the crystal may potentially be behind the professor in the present going rogue and pulling a disappearing act. If he's possessed by someone, they likely rode along on that crystal, and Lahabrea's efforts being tainted like that (or Hephaestus just straight up becoming Laha's dominant personality) would make him being the source of the crystal make the most sense.

Youtube video recapping story and including the scene for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50QY-_yvD4E

EDIT: I suppose its also possible the crystal was another of Agdistis' actions, given how she's the "distant voice" a few times once we're there. But I don't know how she'd have managed to get a memory crystal or sling it forward to us when it was all she could do to make herself heard in her present day.


Edit 2: On another note, Athena is another parallel to FF7 imo. She's clearly ancient Etherys' version of Hojo. >_>

Honestly, thinking about it I kinda get a vibe that the person who sent the crystal might not have been the one that made it. Because my suspects for who might've sent it (Elidibus, Azem) don't sound like they'd have sent the message we got in it, which sounds more like it might've been Erich or maybe Agdistis.

I said earlier:

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Of course... the crystal in question has a previously broken bit that is fused back on, which could hint at Lahabrea. Plus, the crystal may potentially be behind the professor in the present going rogue and pulling a disappearing act. If he's possessed by someone, they likely rode along on that crystal, and Lahabrea's efforts being tainted like that (or Hephaestus just straight up becoming Laha's dominant personality) would make him being the source of the crystal make the most sense.

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And I had a think and want to add:
Another possible hint towards it being Lahabrea who sent the crystal or is associated with it, is that the professor seems to have gone to Azys La. Technically, the sword Thordan used to absorb our Lahabrea is still there (the sword is addressed in a certain questline, but I think in the end it was still left there and contained aether?). Going there to do something with that sword, and w/e may remain of Lahabrea within it, would make sense if the prof is being influenced by Hephaestus. And, if Hephaestus hitched a ride through time on the crystal, its likely sane(?)Lahabrea had something to do with the crystal in the first place.


... I'm sorry I'm all over the place on this. lol

And I agree Cleretic. For example, it could be that Eric made the message that got imprinted on the crystal, but a convocation member made the crystal itself.

One more unanswered question: Why did Azem tell Themis that we're going to come and help investigate Pandaemonium?

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Originally Posted by Yuella

One more unanswered question: Why did Azem tell Themis that we're going to come and help investigate Pandaemonium?

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Bigger question, how did Azem know to tell Themis that we were coming?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Bigger question, how did Azem know to tell Themis that we were coming?

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Well I mean they've been very strongly implying Azem has future sight, so that one actually has an answer.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Well I mean they've been very strongly implying Azem has future sight, so that one actually has an answer.

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I wish they'd pull the trigger and let us know that's something they have or if it's more of a "Strange things are a foot at the Circle K" type thing. The devs love to always be one sample away from something not being just a coincidence. As we have this and the how they acted in regards to being apart of summoning Zodiark and Hydelean that hints they get prophetic visions at the very least. I've come up with a few wild theories about some things but I won't go over them here as they don't deal with the patch.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Well I mean they've been very strongly implying Azem has future sight, so that one actually has an answer.

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That's circular logic. The question of how Azem knows this is the reason people are speculating that Azem has future sight.