Square Enix Does not care about Stalking/Harassment In Game

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Originally Posted by Amenara

I think this is the crux of the point about stalking and harassment in the game. There are no tools to protect yourself from it. You can blacklist people but they can still follow you and silently continue harassing you. The option you are given is to completely lock yourself away from them and essentially be punished for someone else's harassment of you. If you have a friend that turns into a creep and you remove them from your friend's list it is still a one way removal, they can continue to know when you are on, where you are etc.

The systems to protect people in game from creeps and harassers don't exist and should. I should be able to blacklist someone and never have to interact with them in game (like a certain 3rd party mod lets you do, not that I am advocating its use). You should be able to eject and blacklist people from your housing instance. You shouldn't have to rely on waiting months for a GM to do something rather than just having systems in place to fix the problem.

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Someone you don't like standing near you or walking in the same direction you're walking doesn't constitute harassment by itself..

If they are repeatedly following your character everywhere you go, especially as you change zones, then you might be able to make a case for stalking. That's how I finally got someone who had been harassing me in another game banned. I started making a series of random zone changes, waiting just long enough to see if the harasser followed me before making another change when they did. The GMs finally had to admit there was no rational explanation for their behavior other than they were out to harass me.

Most conflicts between players can be solved by making use of the blacklist. Don't want someone in your house that always shows up there? Lock the door and only unlock it briefly when you want a friend to enter.

The more difficult you make it for the other player to get a reaction out of you, the more likely they are to give up on their little game and move on. Things can then go back to normal.

We still have to take some responsibility for our safety and mental/emotional well being. We can't expect all the responsibility to rest on the shoulders of others.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

(1) The point is we do not have those systems in this game, and truth be told I doubt we will ever have those systems in place. I mean in FFXIV you can remove someone from your friends list and you will still remain on the list of the person you removed.

Snip

(2) So I still ask what exactly do people expect GM's to do? Should they just drop the ban hammer for every person someone feels is a creep, annoying, disrespectful, or whatever? Sure would nice if SE offered more tools to remove troubled people, but at the same time FFXIV team does not seem to like actions that overtly single out a certain person.

Snip

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(1) And you're fine with just giving SE a pass on that? You're fine with allowing them to not have features that many other online spaces have that assist with preventing poor behavior? The fact that FFXIV doesn't have these features is essentially the biggest part of the issue here. GM intervention would not be necessary if they existed.

We as players should not be okay with the lack of these features. If you're accepting of it, then you're supporting SE's decision to support poor behavior in-game.

(2) Your whole argument against GM intervention is the idea that the GMs are going to punish someone that hasn't done anything wrong. You act like it's going to turn into a witch hunt when in reality it's very simple. If someone asks you to stop doing something that is very plainly disruptive such as stalking then a GM should have a word with them at the least. And for example I'm pretty sure a GM is going to be able to tell who is simply on the same quest line at someone else and who is actively following another player around where ever they go. There aren't going to be any accidents. You don't accidently appear in every single location as someone else, you don't accidently enter someone else's house multiple times knowingly after they've asked you to stop.

If you actually think that these things can accidentally happen, I suggest you out yourself now and acknowledge that you support the creeps in this game.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

(1) And you're fine with just giving SE a pass on that? You're fine with allowing them to not have features that many other online spaces have that assist with preventing poor behavior? The fact that FFXIV doesn't have these features is essentially the biggest part of the issue here. GM intervention would not be necessary if they existed.

We as players should not be okay with the lack of these features. If you're accepting of it, then you're supporting SE's decision to support poor behavior in-game.

(2) Your whole argument against GM intervention is the idea that the GMs are going to punish someone that hasn't done anything wrong. You act like it's going to turn into a witch hunt when in reality it's very simple. If someone asks you to stop doing something that is very plainly disruptive such as stalking then a GM should have a word with them at the least. And for example I'm pretty sure a GM is going to be able to tell who is simply on the same quest line at someone else and who is actively following another player around where ever they go. There aren't going to be any accidents. You don't accidently appear in every single location as someone else, you don't accidently enter someone else's house multiple times knowingly after they've asked you to stop.

If you actually think that these things can accidentally happen, I suggest you out yourself now and acknowledge that you support the creeps in this game.

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1) Weather I am fine or not with it seems moot to the whole situation regarding the OP. What I am saying is the OP has to operate with the tools we currently have while trying to advocate for future improvements. IMO it seems silly not to use the tools currently available due to personal inconvenience or because one simply should not have to go through such lengths due to one person. We have to understand that it is not a good look for the OP if they have a bunch of tickets in place but they have yet to at the very least do as the GM's suggested. From the GM POV if could easily be seen as maybe the issue is not as dire or troublesome as the OP has made it out to be because they refuse to take the steps to try and mitigate the issue themselves.

Though way I see it we the players can whine and cry all we want about something, but even so we have to still operate with what tools we currently have even if they are less than ideal. Plugging our ears to current suggestions while we wait on future improvements does seem silly to me imo.

2) That is not my argument is GM's are human and thus far from perfect. I rather GM's only be able to enforce punishment based off objective evidence and long standing patterns of poor behavior despite personal steps to avoid such encounters. Black list the player, if the person creates an alt to pester the person even further then I feel that warrants GM intervention. You cannot say with certainty that no accidents would happen, as such I do not feel we should want GM's to evoke their power as willfully or easily as many seem to suggest. As mentioned GM's are people and as people they have differing views it is far easier to for them to go based off a system of what steps has the player taken to avoid the issue weighed against the steps one took to bypass those actions of avoidance.

The other factor is we do not even know if GM's have spoken with the player in question regarding their harassment. Another factor is what some people view as actionable harassments does vary greatly. I have seen mentors in NN get upset when a person they kicked sends them tells asking why they are were kicked seeking an explanation. The mentor asked to not be bothered many times but the person removed still is seeking answers to why they were were removed not to get an answer. It was an slight issue even on the server discord. Some felt it was harassment others felt it was not because the mentor in question did remove them and as such some felt they had the obligation to explain their kick to the person while others did not.

While far from the OP situation, the point I am trying to make is no matter how you want to dice it some people may not see being an annoying creep as harassment given the circumstance. I am willing to bet if the OP had mentioned they have done everything the GM stated the reaction would be different. At that point it shows that they are going above and beyond to pester the OP, as many have stated we each have a responsible for our own safety and enjoyment. Would it be nice if SE provided more tools to allow players to do that easier? Yes, but does that mean we should ignore the tools we have because they may cause an inconvenience? I do not think so, you may feel other wise. If that means I support creeps so be it.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Someone you don't like standing near you or walking in the same direction you're walking doesn't constitute harassment by itself..

If they are repeatedly following your character everywhere you go, especially as you change zones, then you might be able to make a case for stalking. That's how I finally got someone who had been harassing me in another game banned. I started making a series of random zone changes, waiting just long enough to see if the harasser followed me before making another change when they did. The GMs finally had to admit there was no rational explanation for their behavior other than they were out to harass me.

Most conflicts between players can be solved by making use of the blacklist. Don't want someone in your house that always shows up there? Lock the door and only unlock it briefly when you want a friend to enter.

The more difficult you make it for the other player to get a reaction out of you, the more likely they are to give up on their little game and move on. Things can then go back to normal.

We still have to take some responsibility for our safety and mental/emotional well being. We can't expect all the responsibility to rest on the shoulders of others.

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Obviously I wasn't talking about random encounters in Limsa or wherever. I agree with the idea behind what you are saying, I am just saying there should be better tools in game to fight harassment without resorting to calling a GM and waiting on them to investigate while still dealing with it. There is no rational reason for staying on someone's friends list if you delete them off your own. There should be better options for controlling access to your house other than everyone can come in or no one can come in.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

Obviously I wasn't talking about random encounters in Limsa or wherever. I agree with the idea behind what you are saying, I am just saying there should be better tools in game to fight harassment without resorting to calling a GM and waiting on them to investigate while still dealing with it. There is no rational reason for staying on someone's friends list if you delete them off your own. There should be better options for controlling access to your house other than everyone can come in or no one can come in.

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I think we can all agree with this. The blacklist feature is absolutely pathetic in this game . The steps SE refuse to take, to allow their customers to actually deal with problematic players or general unfriendly types is atrocious.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

Obviously I wasn't talking about random encounters in Limsa or wherever. I agree with the idea behind what you are saying, I am just saying there should be better tools in game to fight harassment without resorting to calling a GM and waiting on them to investigate while still dealing with it. There is no rational reason for staying on someone's friends list if you delete them off your own. There should be better options for controlling access to your house other than everyone can come in or no one can come in.

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Can you (or anyone reading) speak of what better tools other MMOs offer to handle this sort of thing? It's always easy to ask for better tools but that doesn't mean it's easy (or even possible) for a game developer to implement them depending on what gets stored client side and what is stored server side.

It wasn't better in WoW. In WoW, someone didn't even have to get your consent to add you to their in-game friend list (it was required for the Battle.net friend list and removing a friend there removed you from their list) or track your location using /who. Adding the player to your Ignore list had more or less the same effect that the blacklist has here. You wouldn't see their chat messages but they could still end up in a party with you through Dungeon Finder or Group Finder.

I played a few other MMOs years ago but never had that much player interaction because I couldn't really get into those games so I can't say what tools they might have had outside of the usual blacklist/ignore list (which I can't recall feeling a new to use in them).

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Can you (or anyone reading) speak of what better tools other MMOs offer to handle this sort of thing? It's always easy to ask for better tools but that doesn't mean it's easy (or even possible) for a game developer to implement them depending on what gets stored client side and what is stored server side.

It wasn't better in WoW. In WoW, someone didn't even have to get your consent to add you to their in-game friend list (it was required for the Battle.net friend list and removing a friend there removed you from their list) or track your location using /who. Adding the player to your Ignore list had more or less the same effect that the blacklist has here. You wouldn't see their chat messages but they could still end up in a party with you through Dungeon Finder or Group Finder.

I played a few other MMOs years ago but never had that much player interaction because I couldn't really get into those games so I can't say what tools they might have had outside of the usual blacklist/ignore list (which I can't recall feeling a new to use in them).

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I don't think the tech for removing people from friend's lists is something that doesn't exist, especially with it already requiring consent from the other person for adding to friend's list. The dungeon finder thing is definitely to the extreme (I wasn't really thinking about that) and I will agree with that aspect being more complicated to accomplish and probably not worthwhile as you just wouldn't see their chat. Plus if they tried to grief or got weird in party chat about it there are two other people who could potentially report them as well.

I still think the blacklisting people from entering your house/apartment should be an option that SE pursues as a QoL feature to add more nuance to just yes or no you can come in.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

How many of you actually read what you post?

You compared this situation

to the pandemic

bleeding hell, awareness much?

You may be right on the GM bit, but your comparison was trash and in poor taste.

That is what I'm on about: not your argument, your analogy. So yes. I did read. You clearly didn't.

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It is same thing idea whether you likes it or not.
Authority/GM told you how to resolve a situation, player choose not to follow because of their own believes and complains authority/GM don’t care

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

(1) And you're fine with just giving SE a pass on that? You're fine with allowing them to not have features that many other online spaces have that assist with preventing poor behavior?

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Please provide three examples from other MMORPGs with the features you desire SE to emulate. The use of the term 'online spaces' is vague enough to mean anything from Facebook to a single-player game where you can chat with other players (or not). It'd be good to also define 'poor behavior' when describing those games and their features.

I look forward to some actual "this is what X MMO did" rather than handwaving.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Please provide three examples from other MMORPGs with the features you desire SE to emulate. The use of the term 'online spaces' is vague enough to mean anything from Facebook to a single-player game where you can chat with other players (or not). It'd be good to also define 'poor behavior' when describing those games and their features.

I look forward to some actual "this is what X MMO did" rather than handwaving.

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Friends only/specific player block on houses lol. PSO2 and Mabinogi did something similar. Also Mabi had a local black list, which meant they couldn't instant message/join your parties/see you as online, and the global blacklist, which prevented them from sending you tells, letters, and their chat from appearing globally. Not to mention that blacklisting removes someone's character entirely so you can't see them

Housing is instanced, so it can be easily locked to friends only and to allow a certain amount of people in, ect.

Mabi had no matchmaking system or a party finder system, so can't speak for that tbh

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Please provide three examples from other MMORPGs with the features you desire SE to emulate. The use of the term 'online spaces' is vague enough to mean anything from Facebook to a single-player game where you can chat with other players (or not). It'd be good to also define 'poor behavior' when describing those games and their features.

I look forward to some actual "this is what X MMO did" rather than handwaving.

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Even if no other MMO fixed this issue, why can't the current devs fix it? Something not existing yet doesn't mean you can't create it, lol.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Please provide three examples from other MMORPGs with the features you desire SE to emulate. The use of the term 'online spaces' is vague enough to mean anything from Facebook to a single-player game where you can chat with other players (or not). It'd be good to also define 'poor behavior' when describing those games and their features.

I look forward to some actual "this is what X MMO did" rather than handwaving.

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In World of Warcraft, if you unfriend someone, it removes you from their friends list. Don't play dumb. :)

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Originally Posted by Chie_M

In World of Warcraft, if you unfriend someone, it removes you from their friends list. Don't play dumb. :)

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Frankly I think most of MMO I played previously always do this lol. Namingly SMT Imagine Online, Dynasty Warriors Online, Aura Kingdom, Glory Destiny Online, and few more that I couldn’t remember their title.

XIV is the only one that keeps your name on their FL when you delete them from your own FL, it’s a bizarre (albeit inconvenient imo)) change coming from all those games.

I can think of 3 things the devs could do to help with ending a stalking situation.

1. Give us a legitimate ban list for housing (including apartments)

2. DO not make our lodestone ID numbers visible to the public and/or change them with a name + server change.

3. If one person removes someone from their friends list they should be automatically removed from the other party's friend list.

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Originally Posted by Chie_M

In World of Warcraft, if you unfriend someone, it removes you from their friends list. Don't play dumb. :)

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No, it didn't. The in-game friend list in WoW wasn't a two way connection. You adding someone to your friend list did not add you to theirs. The other player adding you to their friend list didn't add them to yours. There was zero consent at involved at any point.

It was the Battle.net Friend list (a separate system that eventually linked to all Blizzard games) that worked that way. It was different from the WoW friend list that only worked within WoW.

Why was one able to automatically delete on both sides but not the other? I have no idea but possible the system here has the same limitation.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

No, it didn't. The in-game friend list in WoW wasn't a two way connection. You adding someone to your friend list did not add you to theirs. The other player adding you to their friend list didn't add them to yours. There was zero consent at involved at any point.

It was the Battle.net Friend list (a separate system that eventually linked to all Blizzard games) that worked that way. It was different from the WoW friend list that only worked within WoW.

Why was one able to automatically delete on both sides but not the other? I have no idea but possible the system here has the same limitation.

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Why are you using past tense? I just logged on to test. It absolutely does.