*Spoilers* The Past and After the Endwalker MSQ End

Of course Hermes loves Meteion. That doesn’t stop him from being abusive and loving himself much more than he does her, though.

1. He creates a person that is so pained by mild disagreements, yet never thinks that she might meet things like that on her lonely journey to the stars. He sends her out there specifically without support, assuming the good people of other stars will raise his daughter(s) for him.

2. He’s dismissive of her in really callous ways? I already mentioned the food thing, but it comes out in other ways, too. For example, when Meteion carefully searches all over for a way to help make him feel better and finds out you can also make the Elpis flowers change color, after you show Hermes, at the end he dismisses the gesture because “Meteion asked you to do it.”

3. She didn’t even want flowers when she came back initially! She wanted to share a meal with someone she cared about, accepting flowers only when Hermes dismissed what she asked for outright.

4. She doesn’t want to give her report! It’s causing her real mental and physical harm from the strain, but NOT giving it is never an option for Hermes. The idea of prizing her over himself and his depression isn’t even worth a second of consideration.

5. The only time Hermes apologizes to Meteion is when he thinks she won’t be able to fulfill her function. He compares their fates—even though if the Convocation had succeeded in bringing them into custody, she’s likely the only one facing death—and then laments that she’s not able to give him the answer he wants. That’s it. No apology for the trauma he put her through. No sadness over the two of them being separated forever. Just angst over her not being able to give a report she didn’t want to give in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

...what? His entire thing is that he has humanity--albeit differently-centered humanity.

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Can I please have a link to the fanfic you wrote that you're getting your information from? It sounds like a morbidly interesting read and a deep dive into the mind of a lunatic.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Can I please have a link to the fanfic you wrote that you're getting your information from? It sounds like a morbidly interesting read and a deep dive into the mind of a lunatic.

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Oh, we're in the 'digging through months-dormant threads to try to score shallow points' phase? The post you responded to is five months old and half a page back in the thread. And wasn't even elaborate or particularly popular, either. You sure this is how you wanna spend your time?

Still, I'll answer you. It's called 'the Endwalker MSQ'. It's not perfect, and I don't think you'd like it, but it's well-received and has a lot of positive buzz about it; it's worth a look to see what it's trying to say.

Hermes is a man, in a society so conformist that everybody wears the same clothes, who dares to have questions of the status quo, due to a difference in thinking--that might be stemming from depression that he ABSOLUTELY has. These questions aren't rooted in greed, hatred, or malice; rather, it's rooted in pure sympathy. He sees his society of effective-immortals creating creatures of much more finite lifespans, and only seeks to understand. A gazelle lives in constant fer of being eaten by a lion; Hermes is the only person asking not only 'how does the gazelle find the strength to keep going every day', but also 'was it right for us to invent that lion?' (Or, since we don't know the exact sequence of that, 'was it right to invent a gazelle knowing the lions we already have would eat them'; not a super big difference.) Unfortunately he doesn't really get around to that second question, but he takes the prospect of pursuing the first one quite seriously. This is by no means evil, or inhuman--he just wants to know how to do right by the creatures in his care, much like a zookeeper would, or you with any pets you may or may not have. To that end, he creates Meteion to ask the question of the cosmos: when life is finite, what is the purpose of living? Not a question any other Ancient is asking, but not a wrong one.

Unfortunately, his hypothesis proved to have a flaw; perhaps due to his own society having very little in the way of struggles, he failed to consider a negative or null response, from societies struggling to live or had fallen entirely (and because Amaurot apparently hadn't yet invented peer review, nobody could point out the problem until it was too late). This hits a spiral; Meteion goes rogue, and Hermes can't exactly find it in him to immediately say her conclusion is wrong. After all, she's essentially relaying the lament of mortal life's unfairness that led him to ask the question in the first place; he doesn't want to just reject the uncomfortable truth, and even if he did, he might not be able to stop her anyway.

But, he leans on an ultimate faith in the world; he puts forward the test, because he believes that it can be passed, but knows himself well enough to know that unless he wipes his memory, he won't have it in him to help--and that if he doesn't help, they don't have a chance against that first volley. And ultimately, Hermes' faith in the world was proven right, albeit probably not in the way he expected.

If you asked me if Hermes was a good man, I don't think I'd ever say 'yes'. But if you asked me if Hermes was fundamentally human, the answer is always 'yes'; he made mistakes, and he absolutely wasn't neurotypical, but every single one of the steps on his journey was one of human emotions, concerns, and foibles.

Now Amon, that's a different question, he IS a lunatic.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Oh, we're in the 'digging through months-dormant threads to try to score shallow points' phase? The post you responded to is five months old and half a page back in the thread. And wasn't even elaborate or particularly popular, either. You sure this is how you wanna spend your time?

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I found a thread, found a stupid post, and made my own. Pretty sure I'm allowed to do that.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Still, I'll answer you. It's called 'the Endwalker MSQ'.

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Oh no, not that fic. Good lord, I've seen that one and it's anime cringe all the way through. So many plot holes and contrivances, and it destroys everything the actual game set up. Ugh just reading that fic made my stomach turn.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Hermes is a man

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O. M. G. I never would have guessed.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

in a society so conformist that everybody wears the same clothes

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A society that went kaboom cause some wench decided to blow it up cause people weren't suffering hard enough.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

who dares to have questions of the status quo, due to a difference in thinking--that might be stemming from depression that he ABSOLUTELY has.

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Maybe he should get help instead of endorsing the planet killing birdo he invented's quest to kill everybody. No? Just a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

These questions aren't rooted in greed, hatred, or malice; rather, it's rooted in pure sympathy.

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Idk about that last one, Hermes is kinda a jerk to Meteion at times. "Oh you're about to be taken to Amarout and probably destroyed? It's a shame I couldn't hear the report I wanted."

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

He sees his society of effective-immortals creating creatures of much more finite lifespans, and only seeks to understand. A gazelle lives in constant fer of being eaten by a lion; Hermes is the only person asking not only 'how does the gazelle find the strength to keep going every day', but also 'was it right for us to invent that lion?'

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That's literally his job. Elpis is meant to find out if it is right for that concept to be created. And he's the HEAD of Elpis. How the hell did he get that position if he can't figure this stuff out?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

To that end, he creates Meteion to ask the question of the cosmos: when life is finite, what is the purpose of living? Not a question any other Ancient is asking, but not a wrong one.

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He clearly didn't look hard enough on Etheryis seeing as that was where the answer was even pre-sundering

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

and because Amaurot apparently hadn't yet invented peer review, nobody could point out the problem until it was too late.

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They DID though. In fact, he 100% knew that because he was part of the process. Meteion wasn't put through the correct processes. If she was, the flaw most likely would have been pointed out.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But, he leans on an ultimate faith in the world; he puts forward the test, because he believes that it can be passed, but knows himself well enough to know that unless he wipes his memory,

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It's not a passable test. The 'test' was either impossible for the ancients to accomplish or the sundering was 100% unjustified, neither conclusion I think you would want to admit to.

I don't think that a society as conformist as Amaurot probably knew what to do with someone with a disorder like depression. And even if they did, I don't think they'd look too fondly on someone admitting to being separate from the pack; hell, modern society struggles with that.

Whether Hermes' test was impossible for the Ancients depends on broadly what you think his test was, since he isn't the clearest about it. If you think it was 'can the world stop Meteion', I think that the answer can be broadly agreed to be 'no' as far as the Ancients are concerned; we know Meteion's defeat was a rather literal moonshot, and requires things that they probably couldn't swing. Getting to Ultima Thule, breathing in Ultima Thule, and getting through to the dragons in particular all seem pretty soundly impossible for the Ancients. The world got there eventually, but it wasn't the Ancients that did it.

But if the test was 'can the world survive Meteion's attack', the answer is yes, because they did, even if they struggled pretty horribly with the aftermath. And if the test was 'can the world find reason to live where Meteion found none', I would say that the fact that they didn't doesn't mean that they couldn't. And again, the sundered world did find those reasons, so if that was the test, it was passed eventually.

But the question you asked was never 'was Hermes good' or 'was Hermes right', even if you seem to think it was. You asked me to explain why I felt Hermes was human. And I did: everything he did and felt was filled with a fundamental humanity. He made mostly wrong choices, but they were all rooted in completely understandable and relatable feelings and thoughts. You don't want to end up like Hermes, but not one step on that road was unrelatable on a human level. And to dismiss him as inhuman is to ignore the point of the character and story, in just the same way as if you dismissed the humanity of Emet-Selch.

And if you so disagree with the game that you reject all of Endwalker on principle... I'd question why you're still paying for a subscription.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I don't think that a society as conformist as Amaurot probably knew what to do with someone with a disorder like depression. And even if they did, I don't think they'd look too fondly on someone admitting to being separate from the pack; hell, modern society struggles with that.

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The side quests in both Elpis and Amaurot give insight into the Ancients and reveal that the 'conformist' element was largely surface level. We certainly didn't struggle to encounter numerous Ancients with their own unique personalities. That aside, there's multiple side quests where Ancients are shown to identify a perceived lack of aether in our character and they readily offer aid out of genuine concern. I imagine such kindness would extent to other issues as well.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Whether Hermes' test was impossible for the Ancients depends on broadly what you think his test was, since he isn't the clearest about it. If you think it was 'can the world stop Meteion', I think that the answer can be broadly agreed to be 'no' as far as the Ancients are concerned; we know Meteion's defeat was a rather literal moonshot, and requires things that they probably couldn't swing. Getting to Ultima Thule, breathing in Ultima Thule, and getting through to the dragons in particular all seem pretty soundly impossible for the Ancients. The world got there eventually, but it wasn't the Ancients that did it.

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This strikes me as a rather disingenuous take given that the Ancients were actively sabotaged by Venat and Hermes whereas the Sundered were given every possible advantage. Had the Ancients been given knowledge of Meteion's existence and forewarned of the Final Days before they happened, then I imagine things would have gone very differently.I know Lauront and various other posters have brought this up before and discussed it at length, though. I'd suggest going back and leafing through the posts in question.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But the question you asked was never 'was Hermes good' or 'was Hermes right', even if you seem to think it was. You asked me to explain why I felt Hermes was human. And I did: everything he did and felt was filled with a fundamental humanity. He made mostly wrong choices, but they were all rooted in completely understandable and relatable feelings and thoughts. You don't want to end up like Hermes, but not one step on that road was unrelatable on a human level. And to dismiss him as inhuman is to ignore the point of the character and story, in just the same way as if you dismissed the humanity of Emet-Selch.

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You're free to come to whatever conclusions you wish to. Naturally so too are others - and I don't think I've seen many people consider Hermes to be 'relatable'. Emet-Selch had a distinct goal in mind. He did terrible things, though it was all in the name of helping his loved ones. Hermes was simply a nutter who wasn't even consistent in his goals since he showed callous disregard for his supposedly 'beloved creatures' by hurling them at the party when they breached his hideout. He reminds me of the people who fantasise about humanity being wiped out because they're deep down the rabbit hole of believing that the world would be better off without mankind.

They're not even on the same level of depth or induced sympathy as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

And if you so disagree with the game that you reject all of Endwalker on principle... I'd question why you're still paying for a subscription.

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I think this, too, is a rather disingenuous comment. There's other reasons to play the game other than MSQ's. Housing, PvP, raiding, friends, crafting, gathering and so on.

You're not obligated to agree with any concerns raised in relation to the story but I daresay the poster in question is perfectly entitled to contribute their thoughts here.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Getting to Ultima Thule, breathing in Ultima Thule, and getting through to the dragons in particular all seem pretty soundly impossible for the Ancients. The world got there eventually, but it wasn't the Ancients that did it.

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Why wouldn't the ancients be able to do it? We get to ultima thule using a heap of aether, the ancients are entirely capable of creating beings that manipulate dynamis, and there's no real need to get through to the dragons when you can fly. The unsundered might not have been able to (though emet created some incredibly advanced stuff, and lahabrea is clearly talented at creating creatures), but they don't do a lot of things we know are possible, such as just incapacitating us and dumping us in the void somewhere.

They absolutely could have failed at these things as a society, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise there, but we could have too and likely would have without the whole zenos ex machina stuff.

The whole "why are you paying a sub" thing I just have no idea how you thought was worth sharing. There is a heap of game here, and only a very small amount of the time playing is spent on MSQ stuff. I think I finished the EW story in less than a week, and the patch story stuff took a couple of hours.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

They absolutely could have failed at these things as a society, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise there, but we could have too and likely would have without the whole zenos ex machina stuff.

The whole "why are you paying a sub" thing I just have no idea how you thought was worth sharing. There is a heap of game here, and only a very small amount of the time playing is spent on MSQ stuff. I think I finished the EW story in less than a week, and the patch story stuff took a couple of hours.

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So, I broke down these three specific barriers because I think they're three very different issues that would all prove difficult to impossible to overcome for the Ancients.

Getting to Ultima Thule: So, this requires a space program, and so much aether that we had to consume the Mothercrystal to pull it off. The aether supply is a logistical problem that it seems they didn't really have a solution for; I feel like if they had such a thing they would've used it to summon Zodiark instead of half the planet. Then there's the knowledge problem; do you think they actually understand space travel to a level where they could do this? Could Meteion' technique be scaled up? In the present day the Lopporits swung it, but it's hard to say how much of their space travel solution was there from the word go, or if Hydaelyn basically created an entire civilization with the job of 'figure out space travel, we'll need it in twelve thousand years'. So I'd say it's possible they could manage this one, but it relies on factors we never saw evidence of.

Breathing in Ultima Thule: Remember that this was Thancred's sacrifice. His was a pretty simple sacrifice, though, so the question is 'could any of the Ancients' creations manage this?' And I would actually say the answer to that is no, because something vital but understated about the events surrounding both Amaurots' Final Days and the present day's is that all of the Ancients' creations were turning, without exception; they interpreted it as the magic themselves turning against them, because everything they made tried to kill them. In the 6.15 Omega questline (which is by far my favorite part of 6.1) we saw Omega try to understand why some people turned but others didn't, and came to the conclusion that it was indeterminable because it was a confluence of factors so varied as to be effectively random. My theory is that the reason all the Ancient creations turned, but there was variation among the people of Thavnair and Garlemald, is because most of those factors were things like familial bonds, social contracts, national identity--broadly, aspects of you as a person that you aren't born with. I don't think the Ancients could've survived Ultima Thule, because I don't think their creations would've had the personal identity required to not succumb to dynamis corruption long enough to make such a broad sacrifice as 'my life so that others can live'.

Getting through to the dragons: So this is an extra layer on top of the last one, because it's another thing on the creations' shoulders; getting through the barriers in Ultima Thule requires interaction with dynamis. (The exception is the final one with Emet and Hyth, who essentially short-circuited it by making Meteion do it herself, which only would've worked then.) But it requires more than just that base knowledge; the Scions got through because they were able to use personal feelings and experience to relate to the souls within Ultima Thule. And maybe they could've brought a creation attuned enough to the pursuit of knowledge to connect with the Ea, maybe they could've brought something that struggles with the sense of self enough to associate with Stigma (although I'm not sure on the morality of making a sentient creature with that struggle). But I put forward the dragons, because the dragons only listened to one thing: actual testimony that things got better for them. Not only do I think a hypothetical Ancient expedition would've failed, I think our expedition would've failed if we didn't bring along exactly Estinien.

Succeeding in Ultima Thule was a one-in-a-million chance even for us; I genuinely think that the Ancients' odds were, appropriately for the task, astronomically worse.

And as to the 'why still subscribe' question (putting this in another post because that first one was already too long for my liking)... I admit it's a bit harsh and I went back and forth on it. But I kept it because I ultimately made that same decision years back: I actually did stop playing and subscribing to the game back in 4.1 because I disagreed so fundamentally with the MSQ (specifically both bringing back Yotsuyu and Zenos). There, the side content actually was an almost-compelling reason to stay, because there was a lot of variety in what was being served up, and none of it actually relating to the MSQ; Omega might've had the same writers but was a totally different sort of story, the alliance raids had Matsuno and Ivalice stuff, a bit later on you got Eureka serving up a modernized pre-WoW MMO experience. And the MSQ was still enough to make me walk away from it, because the direction and ideals of the MSQ were such a strong element. I only came back when the Nier raids were announced, which was... I think in 4.5. Fortunately, Shadowbringers was mostly right up my alley.

I can only imagine it's even worse with Endwalker, because all the side content so far is pretty directly linked up to the Endwalker MSQ both in central developers and story connections (and in about an hour we'll find out if the relic is an exception). Pandaemonium is inseparable from the Endwalker main story, and it's not about to turn around and contradict it.

I put that forward partly as suggestion, because it's not a great idea to pay money for media you don't enjoy or agree with, and partly just out of curiosity, because I don't know why they're still here. If they're not here for the story, that's absolutely fair, but if that's true why were they replying to a random post in a five-months-dead thread in the lore subforum?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Getting to Ultima Thule: So, this requires a space program, and so much aether that we had to consume the Mothercrystal to pull it off. The aether supply is a logistical problem that it seems they didn't really have a solution for; I feel like if they had such a thing they would've used it to summon Zodiark instead of half the planet. Then there's the knowledge problem; do you think they actually understand space travel to a level where they could do this? Could Meteion' technique be scaled up? In the present day the Lopporits swung it, but it's hard to say how much of their space travel solution was there from the word go, or if Hydaelyn basically created an entire civilization with the job of 'figure out space travel, we'll need it in twelve thousand years'. So I'd say it's possible they could manage this one, but it relies on factors we never saw evidence of.

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Even if the Ancients sacrificed half themselves to conjure enough fuel for the trip to Ultima Thule, that would have been infinitely better than every single one of them dying except three. Likewise, whether or not the Convocation (and the rest of the Ancients) would have figured out spaceflight isn't really relevant. We can't ask them or find out, because Venat killed them all.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Breathing in Ultima Thule: Remember that this was Thancred's sacrifice. His was a pretty simple sacrifice, though, so the question is 'could any of the Ancients' creations manage this?' And I would actually say the answer to that is no, because something vital but understated about the events surrounding both Amaurots' Final Days and the present day's is that all of the Ancients' creations were turning, without exception; they interpreted it as the magic themselves turning against them, because everything they made tried to kill them.

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Two problems with this argument. One: we're never told how much time passed between the incident in Elpis and the Final Days, so for all we know, the Ancients may have had anywhere from a few months to entire centuries to develop methods of breathing in Ultima Thule. Two: the Final Days did not occur everywhere at once. Just like the modern recurrence, it started in isolated areas first. So there were still Ancients capable of making creations that were needed at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Getting through to the dragons

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Technically, nothing that happened in Ultima Thule was "required". The Scions did it because they got shipwrecked and couldn't figure out how to get through on foot.

Also: anything we argue about Ultima Thule as we see it in-game is completely irrelevant because it's the result of 12,000 years of the Meteia's Song of Oblivion spreading unabated. For example, the dragons and omicrons were probably still fighting during the age in which the Ancients were alive. It's unlikely they would have even BEEN in Ultima Thule at all. And, for that matter, there might not be an Ultima Thule.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

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Getting there isn't a problem, they're massively, massively more advanced in terms of how they use aether, and have at least as long as the sundered did to collect it. Zodiark couldn't wait for a few thousand years. If Hydaelyn could find a way to develop space travel, it's kind of a given more skilled ancients would have been able to as well.

Thancred created a breathable atmosphere, he didn't allow you to breathe there. As long as they have a source of air, or are somehow able to live without air, they'd be fine. These sort of biological limitations aren't really problems for the ancients imo, they can effectively do whatever they like with themselves with the transformations. There's some limits of course, I doubt they could just turn into an army of omegas, but barely needing to breathe doesn't seem like a reach. You could argue that maybe their transformed forms would be corrupted by dynamis, but I don't think that's a given when our magic worked fine. Creation magic was impacted, you're right, but it's not the only type of magic they could use.

I don't think the barriers in UT are actually barriers for the ancients, the scions are fairly limited physically. If we could just pull a zenos and fly directly to the endsinger there'd not be much need to care about what the locals think, or whether you can walk through. Though that being said, for the dragons specifically I think it's pretty possible the ancients would have done fine. They don't really have the same problems humans do, I think it's fairly likely midgardsomr would still be alive, and that the whole war with the dragons would never have happened. Midgardsomr alone is a huge plus for the ancients in basically every way.

The main questions about the outcomes of the path we took are would be how effectively they could actually subdue or kill meteion, and whether the dissenting space bird had much of an impact on how the collective functioned. Which we just have no info for really. I do agree it's nowhere near a guarantee though, but when it comes to the problems the scions faced there, I think the ancients are much better equipped. What problems might have been present if it didn't go the way it did for us is the big thing that makes it uncertain for me.

Also side note, the conclusion of the Ea section of UT was stupid, so I'm just not factoring it into how this would go. Whether the ancients could come up with an argument with that much plot armour or not is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Also: anything we argue about Ultima Thule as we see it in-game is completely irrelevant because it's the result of 12,000 years of the Meteia's Song of Oblivion spreading unabated. For example, the dragons and omicrons were probably still fighting during the age in which the Ancients were alive. It's unlikely they would have even BEEN in Ultima Thule at all. And, for that matter, there might not be an Ultima Thule.

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This is a super good point as well, hadn't even considered this. Though, that being said, it's possible there would have just been other civilisations present in the region instead.

Has to be better than the omicron though, considering they want to fight you to the death even on a good day.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

Creation magic was impacted, you're right, but it's not the only type of magic they could use.

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Even then, creation magic was probably just impacted if the caster was under the despair effect, since there's a few instances of confirmed creation act not causing corruption: the Guardian Force in Akadaemia Anyder, Zodiark himself, or the Elpis in Ultima Thule.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

If we could just pull a zenos and fly directly to the endsinger there'd not be much need to care about what the locals think, or whether you can walk through.

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This is actually a really good point. Zenos consumed a sliver of the Mothercrystal's power, turned into a primal, and just yeeted himself all the way to the final encounter, no questions asked. Who needs to breathe in the vacuum of space when you're a God? Why bother walking when even seemingly land-bound primals can fly if they so choose? Who needs visible light to see when you're literally a soul monster who sees aether? It'd be kind of hard to hide the gigantic dead star bearing the souls of around a dozen or so civilizations.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

This is a super good point as well, hadn't even considered this. Though, that being said, it's possible there would have just been other civilisations present in the region instead.

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Yeah, maybe. After all, most of the worlds in the Meteia's "report" showed up in some way or another. But it still wouldn't have been 12 millennia's worth.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

This is actually a really good point. Zenos consumed a sliver of the Mothercrystal's power, turned into a primal, and just yeeted himself all the way to the final encounter, no questions asked. Who needs to breathe in the vacuum of space when you're a God? Why bother walking when even seemingly land-bound primals can fly if they so choose? Who needs visible light to see when you're literally a soul monster who sees aether? It'd be kind of hard to hide the gigantic dead star bearing the souls of around a dozen or so civilizations.

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Didn't Zenos say he rode on the aether currents, which in this case would be the high speed aetherial current generated by the Hyperhopper?

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Didn't Zenos say he rode on the aether currents, which in this case would be the high speed aetherial current generated by the Hyperhopper?

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I mean, sure. He said that. And sure, maybe that meant what you suggest. But that's not my point.