The Dead Ends is yet another error in the push to make everything hardcore

Just because you died once on a boss, doesn't mean the content is "too hard". Learn why you died and try again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

Press X to doubt.

While I'm in total agreement that it's really not as difficult as the OP claims, there are several points that throw a lot of players off.

1. There is literally a doom mechanic on the first boss which isn't obvious unless you mouseover the ailment (needs to be Esuna'd). I've seen healers focus entirely on curing the damage from the puddles and not realise impending death was coming up.

2. Second boss scatters a ton of AoE all over the place. This includes those diagonal lasers while still trying to dodge circular AoE around the edges. No Future also dumps a ton of overlapping AoE markers which almost inevitably catches out at least one player and deals a fair amount of damage. The lasers also have a much bigger hitbox than you would anticipate from the size of the glowing orbs. Melee get caught out by this a lot.

3. Another doom mechanic (this one requiring you to restore HP to full) in the final boss as well as high raid-wide damage (Warm Glow).

I've run this dungeon a fair number of times on different jobs, so I've seen it from all three angles. Tank, DPS and heal. It is, in my opinion, the dungeon which catches out the most players on their first playthrough - especially if going in blind. I agree it's far from extreme trial fights, but I do feel it's a bit disingenuous to completely disregard their arguments. Personally, I enjoyed the greater challenge. No worse than the final dungeon of Shadowbringers MSQ overall (can't count how many kept falling off the arena on final boss there!), but I can at least understand their points.

---

SE added a bunch of "surprise" (unforgiving) mechanics to some bosses like the last boss in Vanaspati. If you go in blind, chaces are you're going to die a couple of times to the floor explosion and/or the meteors

But there ARE gaps in the second boss' red AOEs. They're there, and they're not large, but they're there. Heck, the third boss' Prance attack is far easier to screw up, at least for me.

The most raidlike mechanic in the dungeon is the third boss's prance mechanic, because it starts happening as soon as gnashing fang comes up for me.

Peacekeeper's aoes does seem a bit much. You get hit with missiles right after the aoe spam so if you get hit by an aoe, you're pretty much dead from the missiles. It's really unforgiving for a story dungeon. The other bosses in the dungeon aren't as unforgiving. Peacekeeper really is good at wiping out humanity, eh. You won't see full party wipes to it but it's really good at killing off people for making one mistake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Peacekeeper's aoes does seem a bit much. You get hit with missiles right after the aoe spam so if you get hit by an aoe, you're pretty much dead from the missiles. It's really unforgiving for a story dungeon. The other bosses in the dungeon aren't as unforgiving. Peacekeeper really is good at wiping out humanity, eh. You won't see full party wipes to it but it's really good at killing off people for making one mistake.

---

This seems to be a trend for quite a number of EW leveling dungeons.

1. Minduruva at Zot.
   Misread one of her Alchemy attacks? The next AoE will probably kill you because you'll be out of reach from the safespot and/or your healer isn't vigilant enough to heal you that split second.
2. Magus Sisters at Zot.
   Delta attack, lightning variant. And when Sanduruva is targeting random members with their quickcast line AoE. Get hit by this? Cinduruva will make a quick work of you with the upcoming raidwide Samsara within next 3-5s. If that's not enough, Minduruva will spice things up with those nasty targeted DoTs.
3. Lugae at Babil.
   Their raidwide coloring obscures the targeted laser beam AoE which usually follows up after.
4. All bosses in Vanaspati.
   First boss. Misidentify the safespots? Those double vuln stack will hurt or worse, kill you off.
   Elephant head boss. Knocked back into a bubble far away from your melees? Pray that they won't target you with that stack up marker or generic DF pugs won't reach you in time (or usually: reluctant to)
   Flying worm boss. Mess up the knockback or color? The comet will probably make a short work of you.
5. Yeti at Ktisis.
   Trying to adjust to the stack up marker? Get hit by the icicle and you will probably murder yourself, or whoever got marked cause missing player. Thankfully this one only needs 2 players.
6. Hermes at Ktisis.
   First few knockbacks? Just a nasty DoT to keep the healers awake. Second half of the boss fight? Get hit by one and you'll probably get hit by the follow ups, which usually scores a kill or leave you just enough to get killed by 1 DoT tick.
7. Livia at Aitiascope.
   Look, Innocence's blades. The second time this happens usually occurs together with the 'hourglass' cleaves. Forgot that the blade rushes back in the 2nd time? Pray you're standing on the safe zone or you're dead, too.

Otherwise, when done correctly they are a snoozefest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xtro99

The only mechanic I legitimately have trouble seeing on the floor is prance. So I have to improvise and hope to only get hit once, save a heal to survive the subsequent AoE and hope for the best.

---

FWIW, Prance is possible -- if annoying -- to do even without seeing the markings. You can just watch where Ra-La starts from; if he jumps to a spot 90 degrees clockwise of the start, the safe one to stand in is 90 degrees counter-clockwise of the start. Then as soon as the first one goes 'poof' (which I think is almost immediately upon his third jump ending, i.e. when he lands in the fourth spot), you just rotate back to where Ra-La started. It's a little finicky on the timing, but entirely doable.

(I admittedly know this only because I forgot to turn off f.lux one night and hadn't realized the gradual tint shift until I was in that boss fight and realized the red shift f.lux had given the monitor made the markings functionally invisible.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gothicshark

TitanMen has at least 9 Alt accounts.

---

He's too lazy to use alt accounts to upvote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xtro99

I mean, I'm also visually impaired and i have no trouble running dead ends. People get mad because most of the bosses have instant death mechanics that will most likely catch you off guard the first time you walk in. My best friend is a Perfect Legend healer, and he seemed dead in the water the first time we ran the place, we wiped like 5 times total by the time we had figured out every mechanic in the dungeon.

The only mechanic I legitimately have trouble seeing on the floor is prance. So I have to improvise and hope to only get hit once, save a heal to survive the subsequent AoE and hope for the best.

---

Prance, the spots put up little walls like around them.

I'll give it that some of the effects on that Ra-La fight are a pain because of the color palette chosen, but they're not *too* hard to figure out.

i have more issues in P3.

I will just admit I eat a lot of dirt on the second boss. The arena is just very crowded and so there is not a lot of wiggle room when those AoEs are coming out. I've gotten better the more I do it but still end up eating it sometimes.

Stop watching Netflix and pay attention. It's also okay to fail your way to success. That is literally what half this game, hell even life is about. You learn, adapt, win.
TLDR: Don't get mad. Get Gud.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raige

Stop watching Netflix and pay attention. It's also okay to fail your way to success. That is literally what half this game, hell even life is about. You learn, adapt, win.
TLDR: Don't get mad. Get Gud.

---

You can get gud at it. Some of us can Netflix and Chill while avoiding haircut AoEs

I can't wait until the Tower of Zot is 90% populated by people who just boosted their account, and have never run a dungeon before. Just like Holminster Switch after 5.2 or so.
I've already had 45-minute runs of it, due to the healer just not understanding ANYTHING, and faceplanting when each boss was at 80%, and on several trash packs to boot. Those - or *not clearing at all* - will be the norm eventually, I'll wager.

The Dead Ends probably won't end up as bad. I guess they're TECHNICALLY a bit harder, but that really shouldn't be an issue for anyone that was able to clear the preceeding 5 dungeons and 2 trials.
... well, except that they'll mostly end up like Amaruot, populated almost entirely by people who can't do simple math, and think the level 90 roulette is worth running for the capped tomestones...

Everyone makes mistakes. Even the most "hardcore" of players pull an oopsie in dungeons. You know what's great about XIV? It doesn't punish you for failing, and let's you try again. And again. And again.

It doesn't take XP.
It doesn't decrease your level.
It doesn't drop any of your gear.
The repair costs are laughable in this game compared to what they can be in some others.

There is no negative cost to your character for encountering a challenge and failing a few times. It's meant to be fun, and have a small sense of accomplishment for beating it.

Saying that The Dead Ends is 'hardcore' is just absolutely ridiculous. I don't savage raid, but I've watched them being done. The mechanics don't even compare. It's night and day. There's challenge to Dead Ends a bit for the casual player but they are all mechanics a player has seen before. Line aoe's, boss limb lighting up to show the side of the arena that is going to be aoe nuked, growing circular aoe's in order, rotating aoe's that the player needs to slowly outrun... Even the esuna'ble debuffs. Everything here has been seen countless times before, in some form or another, countless times ad nauseum. The only thing that's new is the combination flavor of them.

Asking for a player to have foundational knowledge of the game they are playing, HAVE played for 90 levels up to this point to the veritable end of the story, is not a push for "hardcore". It's literally asking the player do to the bare minimum challenge that one can expect after seeing every other foundational mechanic from the entire journey to that point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by technole

You can get gud at it. Some of us can Netflix and Chill while avoiding haircut AoEs

---

I'm not struggling at dungeon content though??? lol
I don't understand your logic. OP cries that dungeon content is too hard and he can't stop dying.
My message is, pay attention and be okay failing until you get it. (because it's not hard and I have faith that anyone can do it)
and then...
Technole enters the ring telling me to get gud because you can split your attention? What?! LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reaver1236

The issue is there is no obvious tells for what the solution to the mechanics are and they are totally new so unless you look up a MrHappy or MTQ guide there's no way to know how those mechanics work.

---

Have you tried not standing in the bad?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

Have you tried not standing in the bad?

---

Or seeing the big glowing pulsating wing being lifted into the air and thinking "Hmm... something bad is about to happen on that side. I better not stand there."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArkenaeuxBelmont

Or seeing the big glowing pulsating wing being lifted into the air and thinking "Hmm... something bad is about to happen on that side. I better not stand there."

---

Remember the days when MMO's didn't just display everything on screen so you had to figure out AoE ranges yourself or had to actually read quest dialogue because it didn't just auto mark destinations on your map for you? lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Remember the days when MMO's didn't just display everything on screen so you had to figure out AoE ranges yourself or had to actually read quest dialogue because it didn't just auto mark destinations on your map for you? lol

---

Yeah, but I was a hardcore raider in EQ.... it wasn't group jump rope.....although I did play a chanter and had to keep the Rathe mezzed FOREVER in that fight.... we don't have stuff like that here.

Would you rather the boss just stand there? The mechanics weren't very hard, if at all. In fact, it was about the same difficulty as ShB's last MSQ dungeon, and that was arguably harder.

The second boss of Dead Ends wasn't hard IMO. It's all telegraphed well with a fair amount of time to move.

Also it the AoEs happen in a set pattern, so you don't have to "guess". One of them is moving inbetween to a safe spot and the other is a merry-go-round.

100% the dungeon wasn't made with raiders in mind. Because if it were like Savage/Extreme, then wouldn't mind it past the first boss.

I'm not trying to be mean, but the expectation that a boss should just a literal striking dummy, is why there's a rift between casuals and those "raiders" you claim it was made for. If you can't be bothered to pause, think about where you need to stand to dodge said mechanic, then perhaps you need to work on tracking visual indicator and recognizing AoE types.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Yeah, but I was a hardcore raider in EQ.... it wasn't group jump rope.....although I did play a chanter and had to keep the Rathe mezzed FOREVER in that fight.... we don't have stuff like that here.

---

Ahh. The days where as long as the Tanks and Healers weren't bad and you had 87hrs to raid, you'd undoubtedly win. I do miss them but I also don't want those days back! haha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raige

Ahh. The days where as long as the Tanks and Healers weren't bad and you had 87hrs to raid, you'd undoubtedly win. I do miss them but I also don't want those days back! haha

---

Fair enough... but it was a different paradigm, where the "holy trinity" was tank/heals/slow,CC .... so it was a different playstyle. Not as twitchy. It feels like the more jump rope extreme FFXIV gets the more like an FPS the fights feel like.

Considering the turn based roots of FF, it's quite a different style.

I very much disagree that Dead Ends is pushing at all towards hardcore content difficulty. I wouldn't even put it anywhere near the difficulty of Pharos Sirius in 2.1 or Steps of Faith in 3.0 and neither of those were hardcore difficulty either.

I agree that MSQ content shouldn't be super hard but it should be challenging enough that you can't just zone out from the content and still clear. At this point, it's reliably there. It's easy enough to be cleared by the majority but hard enough that it gets significantly more difficult to clear if a quarter of party zones out for your average player.

While this may be a story driven game and we're talking about main scenario content as your character grows in abilities and equipment s9 should the content you're enjoying rise to meet your new capabilities. This is a simple and very old structure for games in general, not just RPGs. So, it's both understandable and expected that the game gets a bit more challenging as you progress. And we've been progressing in this game since 2013 and even if you hadn't been playing since then - unless you pay specifically to skip that story content - you still have to play through it. I do not believe that that any of the story content is too difficult and even solo duties have an easy mode if you can't be arsed to learn it.

Unlike your typical hardcore content, there are absolutely visual indicators for each and every mechanic performed by every single boss in dead ends. While they aren't always giant orange floor markers, casual content hasn't always used those markers for visual indicators since as far back A Realm Reborn. Expecting you to be able to pick these visual cues have long since been established.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kemiko

I very much disagree that Dead Ends is pushing at all towards hardcore content difficulty. I wouldn't even put it anywhere near the difficulty of Pharos Sirius in 2.1 or Steps of Faith in 3.0 and neither of those were hardcore difficulty either.

I agree that MSQ content shouldn't be super hard but it should be challenging enough that you can't just zone out from the content and still clear. At this point, it's reliably there. It's easy enough to be cleared by the majority but hard enough that it gets significantly more difficult to clear if a quarter of party zones out for your average player.

While this may be a story driven game and we're talking about main scenario content as your character grows in abilities and equipment s9 should the content you're enjoying rise to meet your new capabilities. This is a simple and very old structure for games in general, not just RPGs. So, it's both understandable and expected that the game gets a bit more challenging as you progress. And we've been progressing in this game since 2013 and even if you hadn't been playing since then - unless you pay specifically to skip that story content - you still have to play through it. I do not believe that that any of the story content is too difficult and even solo duties have an easy mode if you can't be arsed to learn it.

Unlike your typical hardcore content, there are absolutely visual indicators for each and every mechanic performed by every single boss in dead ends. While they aren't always giant orange floor markers, casual content hasn't always used those markers for visual indicators since as far back A Realm Reborn. Expecting you to be able to pick these visual cues have long since been established.

---

Echoing this sentiment.

Max level dungeons have always had mechanics with some teeth to them, even if they're not overall super hard. Right off the top of my head, the final boss of Heroes' Gauntlet will 1-shot you if you don't stand in the crater, and Shinryu has been a meme for years as being a 'wall' into endgame since the end of Stormblood (putting aside that Shinryu is kind of a joke, but w/e)

Anybody who thinks that Dead Ends is an outlier in difficulty hasn't been playing FFXIV for very long. The dungeon will punish you, sure, but it's not hard. Everything is clearly broadcasted, even if it takes a time or two for people to properly internalize it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Fair enough... but it was a different paradigm, where the "holy trinity" was tank/heals/slow,CC .... so it was a different playstyle. Not as twitchy. It feels like the more jump rope extreme FFXIV gets the more like an FPS the fights feel like.

Considering the turn based roots of FF, it's quite a different style.

---

Except the game hasn't been getting more jumprope extreme in dungeon content.

They are all the same mechanics, used before, over and over again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauwen

Do it with Trusts, follow them, you can not go wrong.

Amazing bait post, btw.

---

Outside of the story reason to do Trusts, that is another reason why I really like them. You actually get to learn the mechanics whilst playing the dungeon, no need to spoil it via guide or anything first.

I admit I did get killed a few times by the second boss, but thats part of the learning process.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Outside of the story reason to do Trusts, that is another reason why I really like them. You actually get to learn the mechanics whilst playing the dungeon, no need to spoil it via guide or anything first.

I admit I did get killed a few times by the second boss, but thats part of the learning process.

---

Careful, things that make so much sense will get the inevitable "You're gatekeeping by telling me how to play" argument response from the naysayers.

Imagine not using the tools the game gives you to actually improve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Fair enough... but it was a different paradigm, where the "holy trinity" was tank/heals/slow,CC .... so it was a different playstyle. Not as twitchy. It feels like the more jump rope extreme FFXIV gets the more like an FPS the fights feel like.

Considering the turn based roots of FF, it's quite a different style.

---

I like to think that the only reason the playstyle was what it was then, and not this fast action driven mmo jump ropey thing was impart due to technical limitations. As our technology evolved, so did the mmo.

I'll admit that Dead Ends is probably the hardest dungeon of the expac thus far, but I wouldn't call it HARD. Boss 1 is just figure which way the wind is blowing and hang out on the side of the arena it's blowing from.

Actually, it might have been more interesting if the fight forced you to start on the other side of the arena somehow and you had to weave through the clouds as they blow towards you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauwen

Do it with Trusts, follow them, you can not go wrong.

Amazing bait post, btw.

---

Unless one the over lapping aoes is the unavoidable burst that means stacking on another player or trustee is certain death. I have suffered that dungeon a handful of times and still have issues with that second boss, lol

Only problem I had was with the yellow butterflies and the yellow floor. Only change I think is needed is maybe make the butterflies blue or some other color than yellow. I thought some of the earlier dungeons had harder mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauwen

Do it with Trusts, follow them, you can not go wrong.

Amazing bait post, btw.

---

They can't, if they die with trusts, they have to redo the fight and that would make them realize how bad they are. So they need to be carried by other players that will rez them 5 times per fight then complain how people aren't rezzing them, it's toxic and they shouldnt need to use cooldowns if the healer is doing their jobs uwu

My only gripe with The Dead Ends is the incurable doom on the last boss if one screws up the butterfly mechanic.

So many times I get this dungeon and the healer bites it to this mechanic and leaves the group working down the boss without heals and hopefully we don't have a DRK and can finish up.

This dungeon makes me want to run expert as a RDM just to clean up others crap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thi

My only gripe with The Dead Ends is the incurable doom on the last boss if one screws up the butterfly mechanic.

So many times I get this dungeon and the healer bites it to this mechanic and leaves the group working down the boss without heals and hopefully we don't have a DRK and can finish up.

This dungeon makes me want to run expert as a RDM just to clean up others crap.

---

It's not incurable, it goes away if you heal the person to full. If a healer dies to it I... I mean I can only assume they either don't know that or are standing in a bunch of other things too lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warpstone

Only problem I had was with the yellow butterflies and the yellow floor. Only change I think is needed is maybe make the butterflies blue or some other color than yellow. I thought some of the earlier dungeons had harder mechanics.

---

The ground markers clearly show which way the Butterflies are pointing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reaver1236

For players who just want to do the story, there should not be mechanics that you only see in Extreme or Savage. What is Square Enix thinking putting all these ridiculously difficult mechanics in a dungeon boss like Exaflares or the second boss's ridiculous amount of AoEs? The issue is there is no obvious tells for what the solution to the mechanics are and they are totally new so unless you look up a MrHappy or MTQ guide there's no way to know how those mechanics work. After so many people complained about Mist Dragon and The Heroes' Gauntlet how come Square Enix still insists on making dungeons harder and harder? Please stop lol

---

This game may be better for you, sir. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM_em824wh0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canddi

The ground markers clearly show which way the Butterflies are pointing.

---

They are once you know they're there. I genuinely didn't notice them at all until my friend pointed them out. The whole room is yellow yellow yellow and those markers are orange. My eyesight is godawful and I know that but yeah they definitely could stand to stand out a little more lol

There's markers? I've been doing it based on the butterflies themselves. That's a game changer.

"push to make everything hardcore" and "FFXIV" ...

This must be a massive troll. There's no way you can be serious.... The MSQ is so "hardcore" you can literally beat nearly all of it with flawless AI party members and 90% of the content is dialogue and cutscenes. How much less "hardcore" can it even be?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stepjam

I'll admit that Dead Ends is probably the hardest dungeon of the expac thus far, but I wouldn't call it HARD. Boss 1 is just figure which way the wind is blowing and hang out on the side of the arena it's blowing from.

Actually, it might have been more interesting if the fight forced you to start on the other side of the arena somehow and you had to weave through the clouds as they blow towards you.

---

So you say it's the "hardest" but you wouldn't call it "hard"... Logic = FAIL.