Please implement something to teach players how to play

Would the people who think a mid-to-high end in-game tutorial would work wonders for this game: Please cite examples from other MMOs where this sort of thing has worked wonders for that game. Show by example, not by mere rhetoric, please.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You can't teach someone who's not interested in learning. You can't get someone to put in effort when they feel the content is beneath them.

Those who are willing to learn and put in effort are doing it already.

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You can actually. By making dungeons (especially those in Duty Finder: Expert) a bit harder, so people have to learn.
Remember the time, when the demon wall could actually wipe the group? And that was the first boss of level 50 dungeon ^^.

Maybe somebody may notice that leveling dungeons (71) are kinda harder than high level "Expert" dungeons (80). At the moment, its nearly impossible to wipe in a level 80 dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Anyone that doesn't take hobbies seriously enough to want to get decent at them should maybe find something else. It just boggles my mind. How can anyone not want to be good at things they enjoy?

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"Don't you dare read a single book unless you're committing to reading 20 this week!"

People engage with their hobbies at a variety of levels. That's why they are hobbies, not jobs.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

Remember the time, when the demon wall could actually wipe the group?

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I also remember this:

https://media.giphy.com/media/2jukgZ...xAL2/giphy.gif

Close quarters combat against a giant wall and its bee minions in a race against the clock was truly something special.

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Originally Posted by jamjeeshoul77

It should be common sense that a healer is expected to DPS

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Nope. Relatively new phenomenon in MMOs, and an atrocity.

And a reason your DPS queues get longer.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

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Originally Posted by Imora

Anyone that doesn't take hobbies seriously enough to want to get decent at them should maybe find something else. It just boggles my mind. How can anyone not want to be good at things they enjoy?

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"Don't you dare read a single book unless you're committing to reading 20 this week!"

People engage with their hobbies at a variety of levels. That's why they are hobbies, not jobs.

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A more apt analogy would be to read a good psychological drama by skimming through it haphazardly, noting by its end only that you, "Heh, got some chuckles, at least," and then asking that the author better milk their comedic aspects, even if at the expense of all else... despite those aspects being the least of what was great about the book to anyone who read the whole thing.

Or, say, calling yourself a "drone enthusiast", but your only actual involvement in that is saving up several grand, buying a high-end drone, and seeing if you can fly it more than a hundred feet before wrecking it, for a change. No actual learning how to fly, no actual knowledge about or interest in the drone itself, just spending and crashing, because the thrill of potentially not destroying your hard-earned money is, for you, entertaining enough in and of itself.

By experiencing the entertainment so differently from was intended, one inevitably ends up split from everyone else and ends up having interests and preferences at odds with anyone who experienced the subject area as intended. Expect backlash.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Nope. Relatively new phenomenon in MMOs, and an atrocity.

And a reason your DPS queues get longer.

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Literally present from the start, and across DnD before that. "Healer" as some mutually exclusive task set is the far newer idea -- albeit one that doesn't actually exist in the class designs themselves, but simply in the minds of those who want an excuse for time spent idle.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Literally present from the start, and across DnD before that. "Healer" as some mutually exclusive task set is the far newer idea -- albeit one that doesn't actually exist in the class designs themselves, but simply in the minds of those who want an excuse for time spent idle.

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Not even remotely true. My friend got all kinds of shit in EverQuest on his dwarven cleric because he would put Yaulp on himself and go up to hit things. You were there to heal and shield and gods help you if you did anything else.

just did a 50 dungeon with a synced 72 blm. tank pulled large groups and this BLM sat there and spammed fire 1.
1. Did this person not notice the fire 3 symbol glowing when it procs
2. At level 72 did this person not ever notice that Fire 2 ever existed.
and of course
3. does this person even care.

Most of these people fall under category 3 and explaining anything is a waste of time, the game is simple and I think enough resources have already been spent on new people, people do need to help themselves and no in game training hall is going to magically make someone good. Its up to people to practice rotations in a static environment via a dummy then practice in real game situations(I don't knock anyone making mistakes in there rotation, hell its a breeze of fresh air when you can tell someone is at least trying) For the people who try and its a job I have a lot of experience in I have sent polite messages afterwards offering some help if they want it some have gladly taken it, some have said no thanks there still trying, some don't respond but that's fine.

However you do get people like the BLM I had and basically got 2 choices kick or get through it because people like that won't listen and will likely get angry if you tried to explain anything. There is a difference between casual play and I just want people to put up with me not wanting to actually play this game but I want gear.(still not sure why people like that play the game, some people argue that there just in it for the story but why pay a sub and waste there money when they can watch story videos on youtube) Either way to each there own just wish they understand that there is 3 other people that depend on them and in other cases 7 people.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

You can actually. By making dungeons (especially those in Duty Finder: Expert) a bit harder, so people have to learn.
Remember the time, when the demon wall could actually wipe the group? And that was the first boss of level 50 dungeon ^^.

Maybe somebody may notice that leveling dungeons (71) are kinda harder than high level "Expert" dungeons (80). At the moment, its nearly impossible to wipe in a level 80 dungeon.

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This is kinda tricky. I actually wouldn't mind some more challenging dungeons, but the status quo at this point is pretty much... maybe mildly challenging or inconvenient when it's brand shiny new, but then absolutely faceroll before long. Idk how well an increase in difficulty would be received. From what I remember, Blizzard tried to make normal dungeons in WoW harder once... and people hated it. It wasn't a change that lasted long.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Nope. Relatively new phenomenon in MMOs, and an atrocity.

And a reason your DPS queues get longer.

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Genuinely curious what you mean by relatively new here. I mean, I'm not even a huge fan of the blanket expectation/attitude that you should try to maximize dps as a healer in this game (unless that's what you mean?), but this is definitely not the first or only MMO I've played where dpsing as a healer was common. I mean, the only real difference is that in like, WoW or Aion or whatever pick your MMO, it's usually just a sign that your group is good enough to not really need much healing. I never really prioritized it in those other games, but I mean... I still did it. If you have the margin and freedom to dps, why wouldn't you? Makes things more interesting than just sitting there when no one's getting hit as well.

The game already has this system. It's called "Guildhests".

There is only so much the devs can do to teach someone how to play the game. Also players will always find a better way so what the devs "teach" you won't be the best way to play.

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

just did a 50 dungeon with a synced 72 blm. tank pulled large groups and this BLM sat there and spammed fire 1.
1. Did this person not notice the fire 3 symbol glowing when it procs
2. At level 72 did this person not ever notice that Fire 2 ever existed.
and of course
3. does this person even care.

Most of these people fall under category 3 and explaining anything is a waste of time, the game is simple and I think enough resources have already been spent on new people, people do need to help themselves and no in game training hall is going to magically make someone good. Its up to people to practice rotations in a static environment via a dummy then practice in real game situations(I don't knock anyone making mistakes in there rotation, hell its a breeze of fresh air when you can tell someone is at least trying) For the people who try and its a job I have a lot of experience in I have sent polite messages afterwards offering some help if they want it some have gladly taken it, some have said no thanks there still trying, some don't respond but that's fine.

However you do get people like the BLM I had and basically got 2 choices kick or get through it because people like that won't listen and will likely get angry if you tried to explain anything. There is a difference between casual play and I just want people to put up with me not wanting to actually play this game but I want gear.(still not sure why people like that play the game, some people argue that there just in it for the story but why pay a sub and waste there money when they can watch story videos on youtube) Either way to each there own just wish they understand that there is 3 other people that depend on them and in other cases 7 people.

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Similar situation earlier this week. White Mage refused to use Cure 2 no matter how many times the tank asked. Cure 1 is a situational heal, but it should never be used as the norm. After wiping twice, we removed the WHM and found a competent healer. Problem solved.

All some are asking is that you read your tooltips and do some research regarding your class. I've only been playing this mmo for roughly two months now, and once I moved past the ARR content and realized mechanics actually matter on boss fights, I did plenty of research on Youtube, notably the following: https://www.youtube.com/user/MTQcapture and The Balance Discord for class rotations. The problem that I'm seeing is that, as mentioned a few posts above, is that this is only a hobby to some, which is fine, play your way, but don't queue up expecting a carry from others that have put the work in, when you refuse to, or it's only a hobby. That's what solo play is for.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Not even remotely true. My friend got all kinds of shit in EverQuest on his dwarven cleric because he would put Yaulp on himself and go up to hit things. You were there to heal and shield and gods help you if you did anything else.

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EverQuest is not the first, and that has more to do with spell schools, ability balance, and, above all, little patience for people to learn how to juggle their spells due to just how punishing a wipe would be.

But let me guess, they also gave him shit over using Hammer of Wrath/Striking/etc. on undead and before one's party has access yet to enchanted weapons, or Holy Might/Aweflash/etc when the stun could prevent more damage than Healing/Sincere Remedy/etc., respectively, could heal? Told him he should never use Blessing of Piety or the like because it costs too much mana that should be reserved for spamming , even when he had plenty?

...They were being selfishly reductive, likely to the disbenefit of the run, on the off-chance their Cleric hadn't yet learned to juggle their skills appropriately. But, that's what happens when literally everything is slow af -- as any actual failure, above all else, wastes even more inordinate amounts of time. That, however, has little bearing on design since.

What you're describing has at least as much to do, in core RPG terms, with the tendency to Rest after every fight on the off-chance you might need your fifth Minor Healing charge as it does actual intended design on classes capable of healing. It's a matter of (excessive) caution, over taking the time and chances to become, ultimately, more efficient. Cleric was a flex support. Reducing it to a healer hardly seems "intended" if it thereby wastes 3/4s of the kit.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Not even remotely true. My friend got all kinds of shit in EverQuest on his dwarven cleric because he would put Yaulp on himself and go up to hit things. You were there to heal and shield and gods help you if you did anything else.

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Back in the day if you so much as suggested a druid could dps or a paladin tank in WoW you got called a heathen. I think for a lot of players there's this ingrained sense of how things are that has to be unlearned for FF14

It's not that the classes didn't have a toolkit to allow dps, but players set an expectation early on. Plus some of these games the content required healers to spend most of their time healing and any attempts to DPS could lead to a wipe.

It's a really hard mindset to shake off.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Gonna hard disagree.

That guy playing an hour a week and clearing ultimate is just more efficient with his time.

This is a hobby.

Anyone that doesn't take hobbies seriously enough to want to get decent at them should maybe find something else. It just boggles my mind. How can anyone not want to be good at things they enjoy?

And yes, I know folks that raid log. *Shrugs* i don't call quality of content the differing factor here.

All we end up with in the end is people crying they can't get PF groups or they got kicked or whatever and it's solely because they can't be bothered to take a hobby seriously enough to not be a hinderance.

I just do NOT understand it.

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A big issue is that some people genuinely don’t realise they’re not good at it due to no prompting or “punishment” from the game for doing so. If I play a single player game and do something wrong there will be some form of punishment or consequence; dying, restarting, game over, etc. In FFXIV if you’re bad and die you’ll just be dragged through by 3/7 other people on almost all the content.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Title. (and no, the smiths outdated tutorial doesn't count)

I'm getting sick of running dungeons, trials, etc. whatever the hell content, and people just don't have a clue.

The usual suspects are out:

- Healer who stands still, doesn't deal damage, cant even keep up with healing
- DPS who single targets mobs when you have like the entire dungeon on you
- Tanks who just sit there and pull 1 group at a time
- People at max level who have no damn idea how to play their class whatsoever (example: Fire 1 Mage at level 80.)

What the hell is going on?

I've been feeling like I'm some crazy elitist just because I have an expectation that you have like an iota of competence.

IDK, detract me. Thanks.

Also, Im not going to bother trying to teach people things in game. Been there, done that. You get screamed at.

TO clarify: I'm mainly concerned about level 70-80 characters having these issues.

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That's why the novice network exists.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Nope. Relatively new phenomenon in MMOs, and an atrocity.

And a reason your DPS queues get longer.

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Quite the opposite, actually.
Healers are more scarce in queues because plenty of older, veteran healers went hiatus from maining a healer from having their job dumbed down, hard. Where do they go to? Either tanks—which also suffers a similar but not as terrible predicament, or DPS which are still fun to play around & what most of them had gone to nowadays.

Why would people considers [1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1] and pressing 1-3 extra button before going back to [1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1] for another 20s or longer hard is quite mind boggling to me, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Like I said the problem here is that if someone has not learned their basic class, or functionality by Level 66, for example. Then they aren't going to magically learn this within that dungeon.

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Job potions are also a thing people buy. I've talked to many players while in df who bought one with all the MSQ skips to get to Shb, and half of their skills they don't or never used (let alone bothered reading them anyways). So this seems like a moot point if by 80 they still don't know or understand anything at all about the class in general.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

EverQuest is not the first, and that has more to do with spell schools, ability balance, and, above all, little patience for people to learn how to juggle their spells due to just how punishing a wipe would be.

But let me guess, they also gave him shit over using Hammer of Wrath/Striking/etc. on undead and before one's party has access yet to enchanted weapons, or Holy Might/Aweflash/etc when the stun could prevent more damage than Healing/Sincere Remedy/etc., respectively, could heal? Told him he should never use Blessing of Piety or the like because it costs too much mana that should be reserved for spamming , even when he had plenty?

...They were being selfishly reductive, likely to the disbenefit of the run, on the off-chance their Cleric hadn't yet learned to juggle their skills appropriately. But, that's what happens when literally everything is slow af -- as any actual failure, above all else, wastes even more inordinate amounts of time. That, however, has little bearing on design since.

What you're describing has at least as much to do, in core RPG terms, with the tendency to Rest after every fight on the off-chance you might need your fifth Minor Healing charge as it does actual intended design on classes capable of healing. It's a matter of (excessive) caution, over taking the time and chances to become, ultimately, more efficient. Cleric was a flex support. Reducing it to a healer hardly seems "intended" if it thereby wastes 3/4s of the kit.

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EQ had a lot more set in stone roles. When we were raiding, clerics had a channel where they coordinated their chain heals. Enchanters like me had a channel where we coordinated our mezzes. I kept the haste and the mana regen going otherwise because dropping my pitiful DoT or doing my DD on anything really was a waste of mana because the devs didn't design us with high damage in mind. Same with my cleric friend. He did that because he was a dwarf and wanted to behave like a Tolkien dwarf, not because the design made it more than slapping the mob. The actual direct damage classes handled whittling everything down. I quit after Depths, so maybe things changed up a bit after that point.

This was also the case in early WoW and early EQII though since everyone was supposed to be able to solo the solo content it wasn't as rigid until you got into more grouping content. And in WoW it could depend on your build. But to claim this the idea of set roles was never the norm is not true. When a true support role was still a thing, it was very much heavily baked into game design.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

But to claim this the idea of set roles was never the norm is not true.

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I never made that claim. I only said that there was no point at which having the capacity for healing was wholly mutually exclusive with all other actions or capacities.

In EQII, I dealt damage in downtime. In WoW, I dealt damage in downtime. In NWN, I dealt damage in downtime. Etc., etc.

At no point did dealing damage when there was nothing better to do seem contradictory or unintuitive just because of my being a healer, and in most cases there were even situations by which it was clearly worth timing healing around opportunities for other means of beneficial throughput.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

To the above, is the solution just to make the game more challenging then?

I had already reached the same conclusion before I posted; its up to people to have a want to get better for them to get better.

I really don't like that conclusion though. There has to be SOMETHING to shift the paradigm from bare minimum wins the day.

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That does not really work, then you have people crying the game is too hard (reason they do not even try to get better). Hence why they added easy and very easy modes when those missions are already way way way too easy even on normal. You literally have to intentionally force yourself to lose even on normal.
But if you mention it, you are toxic elitist. The truth is that these people only care for themselves and have no regards if the group around them feel uncomfortable. They are the vocal so they are being listened aswell

They did include them, just it's up to people to actually use them and they haven't been updated since forever. Guildhests were the first ones, the second attempt was the mentor system (which usually doesn't work that well), third is class quests, fourth is target dummies and just practicing a lot.

In the end if someone doesn't want to get better, they aren't going to get better. Humanity is forever the expert at procrastinating if all these years of MMOs and multiplayer games has taught me anything.

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Originally Posted by SniperCT

Back in the day if you so much as suggested a druid could dps or a paladin tank in WoW you got called a heathen. I think for a lot of players there's this ingrained sense of how things are that has to be unlearned for FF14

It's not that the classes didn't have a toolkit to allow dps, but players set an expectation early on. Plus some of these games the content required healers to spend most of their time healing and any attempts to DPS could lead to a wipe.

It's a really hard mindset to shake off.

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It was a situation where classes didn't have a toolkit for dps in EQ. My DoT and direct damage as an enchanter was pretty much pointless. I didn't even use them charm soloing. That's because my kit revolved around support. I was keeping the group hasted, keeping up mana regen, slowing the mob we were focused on, and making these 7 mobs drool on themselves while I mind-controlled an 8th into fighting for us. If I felt froggy, I got my pet Shiny Bob out and let him do his pitiful damage on the focused mob. The game was designed with the idea that certain classes kept to specific roles. We could work outside the box sometimes, like the night a party couldn't find a tank so we let a troll shaman kite mobs around in a circle while our rangers and mages plunked away and I kept things slowed, but it was incredibly slow going because that group was missing a key role that made normal camping groups work. So, yes, in early MMO times it was a case where tank and support classes didn't have the tools for dps because the game expected they would fulfill a certain role and made that role necessary.

If XIV required the same amount of support to a party and had dps skills that were less effective, then we'd see a game design that supported a similar mentality. The difference is that XIV does provide an adequate toolkit for dps and fights aren't designed in such a way that they expect certain classes will always be busy with certain roles. It's a shame, really. I rather enjoyed early in this game when we still did things like Sleep/Repose the big guy in the second Brayflox fight, because the team needed to focus the little guy down. And you would bring slightly different things to the table depending on which other classes you had leveled up to get cross class skills from. But that's a place where player expectation bit us on the ass, ie every healer *must* level a THM for Swiftcast. I'd have loved if our choice as healers to dps really was a balancing act but it's turned into just a default we do because the game doesn't make us responsible for anything else and doesn't even make healing something we always need to be doing.

I really think that intermediate and expert-level equivalents of the Hall of the Novice would be great additions to the game.

It's no secret that this game attracts many players who have never played an MMO before — myself included. FFXIV is my first and only MMO to date. I personally think that harder versions of the Hall of the Novice would've benefited me greatly when I was a sprout, and I imagine it would be the same for others who are new to the MMO genre.

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Originally Posted by Jemi

I really think that intermediate and expert-level equivalents of the Hall of the Novice would be great additions to the game.

It's no secret that this game attracts many players who have never played an MMO before — myself included. FFXIV is my first and only MMO to date. I personally think that harder versions of the Hall of the Novice would've benefited me greatly when I was a sprout, and I imagine it would be the same for others who are new to the MMO genre.

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Yeah but really the jobs going up 1-69 are fairly easy to understand. They don't usually layer complexity on until level 70+, and even then if you run the job enough on the low end, those extras they throw onto it aren't so bad to manage.

Now Black Mage on the other hand... That is one job that has it's rotation change multiple times across the leveling spectrum and that is the BIG reason I just outright stopped playing the job.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

That does not really work, then you have people crying the game is too hard (reason they do not even try to get better). Hence why they added easy and very easy modes when those missions are already way way way too easy even on normal. You literally have to intentionally force yourself to lose even on normal.
But if you mention it, you are toxic elitist. The truth is that these people only care for themselves and have no regards if the group around them feel uncomfortable. They are the vocal so they are being listened aswell

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That's not the case for everyone at every stage of their journey.

I know there were some solo duties that I failed and not for lack of trying to play my best when I leveling up my first class - Black Mage. I've never been an ice mage and I AoE when appropriate and use the appropriate Fire and Blizzard spells.

I do however feel that it should only open up Easy after failing on Normal and you have to fail on Easy to get Very Easy to open up.

Have had fewer of those instances on an alt that I've leveling up on a different class so not sure if due to me being better at the game or if I'm just better at my alt class than the main class.

At the end of the day, SQueenix wants... needs as many people as possible playing FFXIV that could potentially enjoy themselves here within the style of game that it is. That means "good enough is good enough" will be true in many cases, and that bar will of course be lower than those that demand "skilled PUGs" for their randomized groups. If you want a group of like commitment to excellence, you can form it yourself. Meanwhile, approachability is king, and approachability can and will be "exploited" by those that "could do better" but... I mean why? Seriously, I'm one of those players, and I find FFXIV more automatically, gallingly "skill gated" in the SOLO MSQ! It asks me to play clases I'll never have any interest in and, yes, I make it past those checkpoints, but it's with disdain and "I shouldn't have had to do that," but I chalk it up to the impression I'm given time and again by threads like THIS VERY ONE: There are players that can only be part of the renowned welcome wagon of FFXIV only because the game is doing the gatekeeping for them.

Demanding a higher shelf for the core of the game will only lenghten queue times as people leave because the path of least resistance is gone, because SURPRISE: Many of us don't play games like this to "have resistance" to our fun.

There must always be an approachable path that, yes, leads to people being able to try your upper end content. If you don't want to group with the people that don't "belong in your group of excellence:" Form your own group. Me, I avoid the entire situation by leveling via DDs, Squads and Trusts, and from now on I will do all MSQ dungeons with trusts, and you will literally only see me in the ONE trial run I need when the story necessitates it... and I contend that there needs to be an NPC group option for that as well.

I will never join a savage group because they don't offer anything I need or want. My glamor is done basically forever, and power beyond what's needed for the next trust-enabled story dungeon is pointless to me as I play the game. That's my playstyle, and so long as it's supported, FFXIV will get money from me until they stop supporting me. Good enough is good enough, and I've reached good enough, and it's clearly not good enough for the performance obsessed... so be glad I have trusts and I'll see you for the trial carry!

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Yeah but really the jobs going up 1-69 are fairly easy to understand. They don't usually layer complexity on until level 70+, and even then if you run the job enough on the low end, those extras they throw onto it aren't so bad to manage.

Now Black Mage on the other hand... That is one job that has it's rotation change multiple times across the leveling spectrum and that is the BIG reason I just outright stopped playing the job.

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Since Endwalker will bring us to level 90, there's no reason why an Intermediate Hall couldn't be lvl 70, and an Expert Hall at lvl 90. ;)

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Originally Posted by lezard21

I think that the best and most fair solution would be to have dungeons, trials, raids, etc. have an individual minimum DPS objective. If you fail to meet that objective you are not able to roll for loot or it doesn't count for quest completition.

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

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will never happen with dps checks on an individual level especially the quest completion not being marked, they would loose to many subs at that point and its a business first and foremost. its about the money. Also, unfortunately, the casual player's far outweigh the ones that learn the job and play it to the fullest but that's why we have ultimates, savages, and such but even then those turn into carrying players.

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Originally Posted by Jemi

Since Endwalker will bring us to level 90, there's no reason why an Intermediate Hall couldn't be lvl 70, and an Expert Hall at lvl 90. ;)

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Hey as long as people use them there's probably nothing wrong. I'm just thinking that unless they literally shove people into the tutorials they might just get ignored completely.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

At the end of the day, SQueenix wants... needs as many people as possible playing FFXIV that could potentially enjoy themselves here within the style of game that it is. That means "good enough is good enough" will be true in many cases, and that bar will of course be lower than those that demand "skilled PUGs" for their randomized groups.

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I think this is the key point that some people just don’t get. Some people see this game that needs to be more demanding of skill or harder to challenge players. The problem here is to the devs, this is “Disneyland Online”. You hang out with friends, you wait in line to go down the same path everyone else does to see the pirates..or haunted mansion..or abandoned mines. (I expect space mountain next!). Pepper in some minis you can pick up at the souvenir store and you’re set.

That is all. This is a virtual theme park. Priority is keeping the vast majority of guests satisfied and wanting to come back. That’s it.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

I think that the best and most fair solution would be to have dungeons, trials, raids, etc. have an individual minimum DPS objective. If you fail to meet that objective you are not able to roll for loot or it doesn't count for quest completition.

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

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I'd imagine they won't do this because it's going to lead to hostile behavior in the case of a wipe or very new player. It's also not going to be fun if you're the good player in the group and the other 3 players result in you losing all rewards for the dungeon.

That said, I wouldn't mind some form of reward for good play. Comms just don't work, the majority of players either don't care or aren't experienced enough to judge who deserves one. FF14 unfortunately is one of the most thankless games to perform well in. It gets you nothing but occasional belittlement.
A system that evaluated you personally based on dps, healing (minus overheal), amount of damage mitigated and so on and gave you something, even if only some collectible stars that lead to achievements with a few rewards for different tiers would be a big improvement. It would give newer players motivation to try and improve. But you don't lose on anything significant should one player slip up or run a bit slower.

Bluntly, it pretty much is a revolution. MSQ was gatekept for a time with the Steps of Faith until people cried about not getting stepped on, or reading dialogue boxes in front of them so it got nerfed into the floor. Heavensward in particular was an exceedingly difficult to play expansion because the floor got raised about six levels from ARR. Was fun for some but not for a whole lot of people, including me and I raid regularly.

The only thing I can think of is having the trust dungeon be the bare minimum line, with xyz boss having an enrage mechanic. Enrages do need to be a little less forgiving if you want that in dungeons, though enrage is honestly a boring mechanic for players in general. Even a stricter time limit on solo trials would be a decent upgrade to skill floor, though we will have to see. It is a difficult question because there has been nearly six years of coddling to even lower than bare minimum effort both by community and by the devs themselves.

Note that I'm not saying all content should not have been nerfed. The apology raid in Heavensward was rightly there because the game was exceedingly difficult then with the new mechanics being introduced on top of difficulty with optimization.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Bluntly, it pretty much is a revolution. MSQ was gatekept for a time with the Steps of Faith until people cried about not getting stepped on, or reading dialogue boxes in front of them so it got nerfed into the floor. Heavensward in particular was an exceedingly difficult to play expansion because the floor got raised about six levels from ARR. Was fun for some but not for a whole lot of people, including me and I raid regularly.

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To be fair, the raiding experience at the start of HW was unpleasant for many. Gordias broke up a lot of groups. I think they learned then and there that making things stupid difficult doesn't equal acceptable participation levels. Everything we've seen since then reflects that, aside from Ultimate. Ultimate is fine though. It's for the most hardcore players who really, REALLY want a challenge.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Hey all! Sorry I dropped out of the conversation!

Overall, I think I'm just done with this idea.

It seems like this is a community culture thing and what I'm asking is akin to asking for a revolution.

I'm just wanting something in game to nudge people to improve. It seems like this is an impossibility, at least for now. Every time there is a good idea (subjective), there will be the side that's concerned about peoples feelings getting hurt.

Don't get me wrong, that's a valid concern, but it just leads to no progress. I don't know. Seems to be an extremely nuanced thing with multiple variables that I cant possibly account for.

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Overall, yes the game could do a better job of teaching player the nuances of the game (for examples: tank cooldowns, interrupts, stuns)
Players should be expected to at least read their class abilities and know about their buffs, combos and procs.
And there is nothing wrong with coaching players such as suggesting that if there are 3 or more mobs your AoE rotation will do more damage

Should players be expected to visit Balance discord for their optimal rotation and practice their opener? Of course not. That is for savage/ultimate content, not for roulettes.
Should tanks be expected to pull wall to wall if they aren't comfortable with it? Of course not. However, if they are pulling single packs there is nothing wrong with the healer speaking up and saying 'if you want, you can pull more, Ive got you covered'.

But just because someone is 80 and in a roulette doesn't mean they have done that dungeon in their given role before.
And I will NEVER support speed run type content, ever. If you are in a rush, don't do roulettes. This should be taught more than anything else mentioned in this thread.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Seems to be an extremely nuanced thing with multiple variables that I cant possibly account for.

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Welcome to designing games for people other than you. Now just remember this any time you think that some game developer has a "wrong" idea and you know exactly how to fix it.


if we can get everyone to realize this maybe there will be a little more patience in the gaming world.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Welcome to designing games for people other than you. Now just remember this any time you think that some game developer has a "wrong" idea and you know exactly how to fix it.


if we can get everyone to realize this maybe there will be a little more patience in the gaming world.

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It amazes me all of the noise over how the game is being paired down or catering to the lowest common denominator and yet when the game hands them a trainwreck party where you really have to pull out the stops just to clear, that's too much work.

-I mean, I get it. It's annoying when you're just trying to get shit done but I'd rather deal with that kind of difficulty than the extremely convoluted mechanics that make Savage what it is. Give me duelling tanks who cleave the raid, ice mages, incidental healers, melee who don't know what those red circles mean. An Alliance-worth of new players that think mechanics are for cars.

You'll never see me touch Savage content while it's relevant. I don't need to. Duty Finder is my Savage. Long may it reign.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Hey all! Sorry I dropped out of the conversation!

Overall, I think I'm just done with this idea.

It seems like this is a community culture thing and what I'm asking is akin to asking for a revolution.

I'm just wanting something in game to nudge people to improve. It seems like this is an impossibility, at least for now. Every time there is a good idea (subjective), there will be the side that's concerned about peoples feelings getting hurt.

Don't get me wrong, that's a valid concern, but it just leads to no progress. I don't know. Seems to be an extremely nuanced thing with multiple variables that I cant possibly account for.

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Nothing wrong with asking! And nothing wrong with a suggestion here.

Personally, I think the easiest way to encourage better play is to offer a carrot.

So, imagine “time trial” version of dungeons, where objective is to clear certain dungeons, at sync’d iLVL in a really close amount of time. Typically a dungeon allows for an hour, so how about a 20 min timer? Or 30, but with diminishing rewards?

Then make it so it can’t be done via duty finder (gotta pre-make your party), and then choose from like 5 or so in a weekly rotation. (Can clear each once?)

Obviously they’d have to tweak the allowable time, but certainly 30 minutes would be enough. Basically it should be tight enough that you would need to pull off rotations excellently to clear.

Reward? Currency for mounts, minis etc. I dunno, maybe have rotating rewards or even the currency is only good the week you earn it. (Like Khloe’ book)


Hell, plan B just make it “Khloe’s Book of Scary Stories” and work it like her weekly thing except either reduced iLVL or really tight amount of time. Again, non DF.

I don't mind it tbh, but I'd like to get rewarded for having put an arch on my back SE.

would kinda be a good thing to teach people better how to handle their class and the mechanics. but tbh i dont think it would help much if they dont get something they want from it. people are lazy and they want something, the two things i know about people (most people not all)

i mean, for a long time i thought it would be obvious to look into new skills you learn. like... read EVERY word of it. and to use a few seconds to think about how you use your skills. the game cant really teach you that, can it?
just two days ago i joined a lvl 57 dungeon in progress, they were at the endboss.... the whm ONLY used Cure III didnt matter if the players were in range, didnt matter how many of them needed heal.

yeah the whm was new, so i was patient and gave him pointers (didnt really help much though) but come on, how can someone has the idea of using just one single skill when you have so many?
things like this shattered my mind xD

New Player (about a month or so) still working on MSQ level 69 White Mage. A few thoughts I had when I read this thread:

-More than a couple of raids I have been on have come with vets throwing a tantrum when a lot of sprouts are in their 1st time run and cause a wipe

-I watch strat videos before I go in, but it does not prepare me fully for the actual timing of the fight

-As a healer, my main job is to heal. I have no confidence to predict when damage spikes are coming to balance my mana usage, so I cut back on dps until I can run things a few times

-There are a lot of new players (which I think is a very very good thing for an older game). Vets need to understand that it is all brand new to many of us.

-Some people will not watch strats ahead of time, fact of life

-Helpful encouragement from vets goes a long way to player retention

-Timed runs, like WoW mythic plus, are a terrible idea