Yoshida on "carrying" other people

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yep! Soon this game will be accessible for everyone worldwide! I think it'll be particularly popular among orangutans one day.

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They'll have an absolute blast running Castrum Meridianum a thousand times a day.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Our primate brethren would probably be better than most people I encounter in DF. Also I wonder if this feeds into the long running issue of player retention at level cap?

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How could being, as you say, replaceable by orangutans possibly give people little to keep playing for? I am shocked at this leap in logic. /s

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Originally Posted by Awha

Overall from a growth of population aspect having harder smaller form content is in a nebulous spot. Most likely it would seen some decent level of participation especially if the rewards, gameplay loop were engaging enough but that small form will also be inviting to more causal players but the learning curve may be too great which runs the risk of alienating a large part of the population.

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It's all about that learning curve, though, right? If anything, our largest problem now is that outside the slow accumulation of telegraphed mechanics (learning that a ring with inward-pointing arrows means to *gasp* stack in the ring, for instance) we have less of a curve than a highly eroded plateau, complete with a few transient debris flows (that force a lesson or two helpful in reaching the top) and a very shallow slope at its feet. Because so little challenge ever enters the mainstream, the higher content either feels all the less accessible to your average player (often inducing more anxiety than seems warranted) or is all the more difficult to prepare for (leaving some to enter thinking they'd be fine... when they're not yet quite prepared).

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Originally Posted by Awha

To a degree I would love for a mythic + system to be brought over to FFXIV but due to the design choices by Yoshi-P I do not think this community could handle the uptick in personal accountability a smaller scale dungeon would place. By in large the level of accountability for a smaller group in harder content is on average greater even if they are tuned to be similar in difficultly just by nature of having fewer people to cover mistakes.

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While there are problems with any wholesale M+ system, so I'll take this instead in the spirit of "engaging light party content with highly granular upward difficulty settings", I think such a system would catch flak mostly just through tangential complaints -- "Developing this (ultimately incredibly cost-effective) system cost us a dungeon or mini-game we otherwise would have surely had!", "Eww! Difficulty should go back to the toxic cesspit that is WoW!", "I can't believe they made this content (that arguably aims most at bridging the casual-midcore-hardcore alleged divide and at friend groups who can't always get together as an 8-man) to pander to hardcore players even more!" -- and would eventually be taken in stride so long as it wasn't positioned as required content and had a smooth difficult curve across the dungeons thus included at their base (M0) level and/or their increasing difficulty level. That prior point is how we lost Pharos Sirius, while Amdapor Keep simply had the problem of being too huge a leap relative to Wanderer's Palace or Darkhold.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How could being, as you say, replaceable by orangutans possibly give people little to keep playing for? I am shocked at this leap in logic. /s
It's all about that learning curve, though, right? If anything, our largest problem now is that outside the slow accumulation of telegraphed mechanics (learning that a ring with inward-pointing arrows means to *gasp* stack in the ring, for instance) we have less of a curve than a highly eroded plateau, complete with a few transient debris flows (that force a lesson or two helpful in reaching the top) and a very shallow slope at its feet. Because so little challenge ever enters the mainstream, the higher content either feels all the less accessible to your average player (often inducing more anxiety than seems warranted) or is all the more difficult to prepare for (leaving some to enter thinking they'd be fine... when they're not yet quite prepared).


While there are problems with any wholesale M+ system, so I'll take this instead in the spirit of "engaging light party content with highly granular upward difficulty settings", I think such a system would catch flak mostly just through tangential complaints -- "Developing this (ultimately incredibly cost-effective) system cost us a dungeon or mini-game we otherwise would have surely had!", "Eww! Difficulty should go back to the toxic cesspit that is WoW!", "I can't believe they made this content (that arguably aims most at bridging the casual-midcore-hardcore alleged divide and at friend groups who can't always get together as an 8-man) to pander to hardcore players even more!" -- and would eventually be taken in stride so long as it wasn't positioned as required content and had a smooth difficult curve across the dungeons thus included at their base (M0) level and/or their increasing difficulty level. That prior point is how we lost Pharos Sirius, while Amdapor Keep simply had the problem of being too huge a leap relative to Wanderer's Palace or Darkhold.

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I agree it is about the learning curve, and while I shit on many players in FFXIV generally I do not think people are incapable of running savage content. I do think at the core FFXIV does have a good difficulty progression that does for the most part prepare players for challenging content if they wish to partake in it. I think by the large much of the resistance to harder content by the general population is a product of framing by Yoshida-P and the general philosophy when it comes to group content in the general sense. I think it largely boils down to this notion of what reason does someone have to improve or run harder content in FFXIV.

While I do know many players would run harder small form content just for the nature of the gameplay loop itself, by in large rewards would be needed to maintain any level of replay ability and depending on the quality of rewards would foster some level of ire from the non participating community—akin to PvP feast rewards. I which is unfortunate cause I do not think more difficult small form content has to be inherently accommodating but I do think that is the general vibe small form content outside of a few niche expectations carries in FFXIV—causal friendly.

Though I do think if they move in the direction slowing increasing the personal accountability within normal content maybe one day we can get harder content that does have a meaningful progression system for ones character outside of just being something to do.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Yes, not that much bigger: 4 more players than a light party, 6 more players than a duo. When the scale is small, 2x or 3x is still small.

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You're not viewing players as factors but numbers. Players are additive, multiplicative, and qualitative.

With your logical it shouldn't matter if you have 24gb, 16gb, 12gb, 8gb, 4gb, or even 2gb of vram because the amount multiplied are small.
The actual number is only a reference point to allow you to conveniently understand how things should function should you add or multiply the value it doesn't explain the intricacies of the factors. The difference is immense.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

It's the NA/EU playerbase that causes that problem with there own laziness and expectations to be carried. not to unlike how people read this thread and interpret as yoshi-p is condoning laziness.

In contrast to the JP side where savage level contents require literally no organization at all and matchamking will get you basically everywhere. you can literally log in to the game jump into raid finder get matchmade into a group and successfully clear savage level content with very few issues.

the only reason it doesnt work on this side is because people are lazy and self entitled. oh the other 7 people will carry me... doesnt work when the other 7 people are all thinking the exact same thing..

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Ah, I was happy when they announced they were going to add the raid finder. Then no one uses it lol. Also I'm not against watching a vid, but strats change all the time. E5S was such a headache, and then the whole Happy Brambles thing. Also Discord is just pants sometimes. Sorry, but randos here in the US think the rest of us want to hear them eat, listen to their memes/music, or argue with their kids/spouse while learning a fight. I'd rather stick to text.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Our primate brethren would probably be better than most people I encounter in DF. Also I wonder if this feeds into the long running issue of player retention at level cap?

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Sadly, I think I would rather have an orangutan as my party member than some players nowadays. They'd probably do AOE even.

My little sprout don't you worry

This cold world is not for you

So rest your head upon me

I have strength to carry you

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

You're not viewing players as factors but numbers. Players are additive, multiplicative, and qualitative.

With your logical it shouldn't matter if you have 24gb, 16gb, 12gb, 8gb, 4gb, or even 2gb of vram because the amount multiplied are small.
The actual number is only a reference point to allow you to conveniently understand how things should function should you add or multiply the value it doesn't explain the intricacies of the factors. The difference is immense.

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Yoshida was asked about the new small-scale PVP coming in Endwalker. He said it'll be about Feast size or a little larger, so not 2v2.

When you have contents as big as 24-player, 48-player, 56-player, or 72-player, etc., 8 is still quite small, especially considering this is an MMO.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Sadly, I think I would rather have an orangutan as my party member than some players nowadays. They'd probably do AOE even.

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I don't know about that. The orangutan would probably be an AFK player.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

Ah, I was happy when they announced they were going to add the raid finder. Then no one uses it lol. Also I'm not against watching a vid, but strats change all the time. E5S was such a headache, and then the whole Happy Brambles thing. Also Discord is just pants sometimes. Sorry, but randos here in the US think the rest of us want to hear them eat, listen to their memes/music, or argue with their kids/spouse while learning a fight. I'd rather stick to text.

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The issue was people were using it expecting carries even on day one of its implementation with Sophia Ex.

For example, you might have gotten right down to like 4-5% seen the fight enrage and literally just needed to clean up things a tiny bit to actually beat it.
So then you'd go for a clear, open the raid finder and set your options. [Duty Incomplete] [Duty Completion][Phase 3] hit the queue button wait around for it to ding. Only to find when it does and you load in to the fight 3-4 people pipe up "Hi, First Time."....
WTF?!?!?! Those people should be queing [Practice] [Phase 1] if it's their first time instead of selecting [duty completion] [phase 3] and expecting everyone else to carry them.

So then what happened was people either dropped duty straight even before the first pull because those first timers souldnt be queueing with those options, or they'd give it a run find they can't even get to the add phase and then dropped duty because they're just wasting their time.

Those first timers would get upset and cry about the usual toxic / elitist arguements that get touted because people dont want to carry there ass.

Way back in Sophia a lot of people were asking for checkpoints to be added on the raid finder so players literally couldnt queue [phase 3] if you hadn't made it that far. or couldn't queue [duty completion] if you hadn't at least seen enrage or got her hp down to under 10%. they could have done a lot to save the raid finder with that but alas it never happened.

But when stuff like that happens to you for the "n"th time it's not surprising that your going to stop even trying to use the raid finder because it just ends up being a total waste of time.

As a result of that behaviour the raid finder system has been totally killed on the NA side no one uses it. Which then leads to further arguements of content being "inaccessible" when the content is perfectly accessible its the playerbase that is the problem.