The 3-Strikes Policy - Is it really a good thing?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I thought this game was rated for teens.

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The ESRB cannot rate inter-player interactions. They even list as such on their ratings.

Well if you get to talk to a GM for actions you committed you broke a rule with irrational behaviour, don't do that, if you get a warning with them saying it is a nono... then they actually mean it, there is no player rules that can over rule the ToS, however good behaviour among players would be a good start to have nice experience in this game.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Well if you get to talk to a GM for actions you committed you broke a rule with irrational behaviour, don't do that, if you get a warning with them saying it is a nono... then they actually mean it, there is no player rules that can over rule the ToS, however good behaviour among players would be a good start to have nice experience in this game.

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"Well if you get to talk to a GM for actions you committed you broke a rule with irrational behaviour, don't do that" - You mean don't talk to the GM or do the same behavior? If the later, that seems obvious.

"if you get a warning with them saying it is a nono... then they actually mean it, there is no player rules that can over rule the ToS" - By "them" are you referring to the GM? If so, how is this sentence different from the prior? Also, why wouldnt they mean it?

Having a hard time understanding what you're trying to communicate here.
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Originally Posted by Nightingaile

It's an argument for people who are naive enough to believe that there ARE "bad" people and "good" people. For people who want things easy. These things do not exist. Things are *not* that simple.

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Well, there are definitely some "wrong 'uns" out there, some pople you jut can't reach, I don't think it's naive at all to recognize that.

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Originally Posted by Nightingaile

Mr. Rogers once said: ""Frankly, there isn't anyone you couldn't learn to love once you've heard their story"

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Strongly disagree, some people are just... awful, because they enjoy annoying and upsetting other people.

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Originally Posted by Nightingaile

I'm fine with punishment, but punishment *forever*? *Unforgivable punishment* ? There's no logical basis for that. It's far too black and white.

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To be fair, this depends what it's for, if someone is having a bad day and perhaps just says something out of character then sure, let it go and move on. I have an old acquaintance on my Facebook friends list though and he gets a timeout at least once a month, sometimes more frequently and it's always his own fault. He isn't changing and he certainly isn't learning anything from it. Some folks you just can't reach and the problem with a system that's to lenient is people either learn to navigate it or just wait out the temp ban and then carry on as before. I've even worked with people who treat official written warnings like that. A permanent solution is a useful and necessary tool.

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Originally Posted by Nightingaile

And for those of you who would still rather release the guillotine before hearing the plea, consider that your rush to judgement might be a product of modern Cancel Culture as opposed to true and fair justice. I feel I can say this because I have seen it's influence on myself. And we are not very different.

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Don't agree, cancel culture is about canceling people who's views you don't like, I wouldn't put repeatedly being an ass to other players or cheating in the same category.

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Originally Posted by Nightingaile

Mr. Rogers once said: ""Frankly, there isn't anyone you couldn't learn to love once you've heard their story"

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Many people who get caught deliberately breaking the rules aren't sorry for what they've done, or for the people they've hurt. They're sorry because there's potentially consequences for their actions. Invoking Mr. Rogers or the bible or any other holy text doesn't change that, nor does it make me personally willing to forgive racists whenever I've had the displeasure of running into them in game.

Honestly I think three strikes is too lenient and all encompassing for some things. Bigots spouting racist garbage deserve to get banned on the first infraction, not after three. I could watch them get banned all day. I don't care about their accounts or the hours they've spent on them, or the friends they'd miss seeing, and I don't care about their 'story' because I already know where it ends: them being racist and not worth being around, ever. I certainly don't care how long has passed between infractions of that nature. Some things aren't forgivable, and some people keep breaking rules on stuff like this in MMOs because their punishment is little more than a slap on the wrist. If those people didn't want to get banned, they wouldn't be openly racist.

Same rule applies to cheaters, honestly. Get caught, get gone, no second chances, I don't care if you have friends or family who also play. And if they're persistent and keep coming back on new accounts and keep cheating, they can keep getting banned until they either get tired of it or the game eventually shuts down. It's their money to donate to SE if they're so inclined.

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Originally Posted by Nightingaile

When I see the justifications people give, it's even more obvious. "People who have done bad things are bad, and bad people do not deserve understanding." It's a shallow argument.

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I disagree. The focus is on the action, not the person. It doesn't matter what one believes (whether people are born good or born bad or whether there even is such a thing as good/bad people), what matters is that people who disrupt gameplay for other people, and repeatedly do it.

The whole reason there are even three strikes is so that people are forgiven for making mistakes. But if those people don't make an effort to improve, instead start crying about how they should be forgiven more, then I don't see why they shouldn't get a permaban.

Don't make the same mistakes over and over. Respect the rules. Read up on the rules. Make an effort to abide by the rules. That's what the three-strike policy really is doing.

FFXIV has a small community, compared to a nation. And access to a game is not on the same level as real world punishment. Smaller communities have less resources and expulsion has always been a valid and common option for small communities. And if one really cares that much about the game, one should learn to play nice in the game.

There is no true justice in an MMO. There is the company policy that is drawn up based on what kind of community the company wants to build. We have all heard stories of people who just don't care that they are being punished. I think the three-strike policy can help stop that.

If I have to choose whether to provide a better gaming experience for the victim of an action versus protecting the "rights" of the perpetrator or "justice", I would stand by the victim.

Now whether GMs make mistakes or rush their decisions, that is something that can and should be discussed. But the three-strike policy is fine IMO.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I disagree. The focus is on the action, not the person. It doesn't matter what one believes (whether people are born good or born bad or whether there even is such a thing as good/bad people), what matters is that people who disrupt gameplay for other people, and repeatedly do it.

The whole reason there are even three strikes is so that people are forgiven for making mistakes. But if those people don't make an effort to improve, instead start crying about how they should be forgiven more, then I don't see why they shouldn't get a permaban.

Don't make the same mistakes over and over. Respect the rules. Read up on the rules. Make an effort to abide by the rules. That's what the three-strike policy really is doing.

FFXIV has a small community, compared to a nation. And access to a game is not on the same level as real world punishment. Smaller communities have less resources and expulsion has always been a valid and common option for small communities. And if one really cares that much about the game, one should learn to play nice in the game.

There is no true justice in an MMO. There is the company policy that is drawn up based on what kind of community the company wants to build. We have all heard stories of people who just don't care that they are being punished. I think the three-strike policy can help stop that.

If I have to choose whether to provide a better gaming experience for the victim of an action versus protecting the "rights" of the perpetrator or "justice", I would stand by the victim.

Now whether GMs make mistakes or rush their decisions, that is something that can and should be discussed. But the three-strike policy is fine IMO.

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Propblem is that people are often not told what action they did that was bad. They are just told they did something bad and a general violation, many of which are so braod it doesn't help at all in narrowing it down, thus one cannot correct said action.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

Propblem is that people are often not told what action they did that was bad. They are just told they did something bad and a general violation, many of which are so braod it doesn't help at all in narrowing it down, thus one cannot correct said action.

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And I agree that is a problem. But that is a problem not with the three-strike policy, but a procedural problem with how punishment is handed out. I am in full support that any punishment handed out should accompany explanations that help the punished player to learn and improve. But it is not (in my opinion) a valid argument for removing the three-strike policy, as it will create more problems for more people than what it solves.

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Originally Posted by KayRadley

The ESRB cannot rate inter-player interactions. They even list as such on their ratings.

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My point is that it's quite sad that many players feel they have to behave as if they're surrounded by very young children to avoid being thrown into GM jail.

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Originally Posted by Nightingaile

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Call it shallow. Call everyone secretly good and needing ol' fashioned love to save their soul. Call me blood thirsty for wanting people thrown into the shadow realm. Don't matter. I don't want the guy who can't figure to stop doing a particular bad thing after 3 warnings to tank for me. 3 strikes you're outta here.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

My point is that it's quite sad that many players feel they have to behave as if they're surrounded by very young children to avoid being thrown into GM jail.

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Nah, just act like a decent human being, and don't act needlessly aggressively or abrasively and you're fine.

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Originally Posted by Nightingaile

"Well if you get to talk to a GM for actions you committed you broke a rule with irrational behaviour, don't do that" - You mean don't talk to the GM or do the same behavior? If the later, that seems obvious.

"if you get a warning with them saying it is a nono... then they actually mean it, there is no player rules that can over rule the ToS" - By "them" are you referring to the GM? If so, how is this sentence different from the prior? Also, why wouldnt they mean it?

Having a hard time understanding what you're trying to communicate here.
'

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There is and was absolutely no need to be rude.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Nah, just act like a decent human being, and don't act needlessly aggressively or abrasively and you're fine.

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Pretty much, it just goes to show some people need a wake-up call to their already brazen behavior.

If what this thread has shown, that strikes are enough to get under people's skin to want to plead getting a free strike pass every year to do something wrong again. Well if you get 1 strike, you'll hopefully stop and not garner more. Just stop being rude, don't type aggressive behavior, if it's grey area where you don't know everyone in the party/linkshell/chat you are in, stop. It's not a hard concept.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Nah, just act like a decent human being, and don't act needlessly aggressively or abrasively and you're fine.

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That's basically what I do. I have a very foul mouth, which isn't unusual in Ireland. But in game I keep a tight lid on it because I know FFXIV staff don't care about the context of a F bomb. They only care if you said it. Which is quite funny because I found that the most devastating insults don't even need profanity.

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Originally Posted by technole

Pretty much, it just goes to show some people need a wake-up call to their already brazen behavior.

If what this thread has shown, that strikes are enough to get under people's skin to want to plead getting a free strike pass every year to do something wrong again. Well if you get 1 strike, you'll hopefully stop and not garner more. Just stop being rude, don't type aggressive behavior, if it's grey area where you don't know everyone in the party/linkshell/chat you are in, stop. It's not a hard concept.

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If you get an offense that is nullified after a period of time like a year then you only encourage people to go back to old habits. Irrespective of the severity of the 'breach'; nothing should encourage the potentiality of people deviating back into old and disrespectful habits. If you learn your lesson as you should then the need for previous offenses to vanish after a certain amount of time is moot. Just learn from ad behavior, the 3-strike policy facilitates that. All they need to improve on is their transparency with offenders regarding their exact cause for warning; shouldn't need to cry dsar/gdpr to access something that should be provided.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

That's basically what I do. I have a very foul mouth, which isn't unusual in Ireland. But in game I keep a tight lid on it because I know FFXIV staff don't care about the context of a F bomb. They only care if you said it. Which is quite funny because I found that the most devastating insults don't even need profanity.

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If I'm ever in a position where I'm inclined to drop the 'F Bomb' it is usually around people with whom I have a high familiarity/relationship to otherwise feel comfortable about not getting reported. If I'm ever in a position to swear otherwise then I just change my chat log filters for specifically FC/Tell and then stray away from dropping potential toxic behavior on random people.

I'd recommend never cursing in the first place - not even with friends. If you need to do that, keep it third party, so there is no archive of it in-game. Then again, I am incredibly paranoid.

The trick is to either keep your seething vitriol for everything and everyone in the discord group so you don't get reported, or throw shade so subtle the individual that is currently drawing your ire doesn't even realize they're being insulted.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

That's basically what I do. I have a very foul mouth, which isn't unusual in Ireland. But in game I keep a tight lid on it because I know FFXIV staff don't care about the context of a F bomb. They only care if you said it. Which is quite funny because I found that the most devastating insults don't even need profanity.

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I keep seeing this, and I'm honestly not trying to sound like a broken record, but again, I swear all the time in dungeons, mostly because I screw up a lot. And I have never gotten a warning. I understand context is everything, but are people really getting reported for dropping an F-bomb when they fail a mechanic or something?

Question from a non-swearer:

I feel like swearing would be a spontaneous thing. Wouldn't it make sense to just swear in person and not type it out in game? I guess some people do type fast, but it shouldn't be too hard not to swear in game (assuming it is a reportable offense) given the spontaneous nature of the exclamation.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I keep seeing this, and I'm honestly not trying to sound like a broken record, but again, I swear all the time in dungeons, mostly because I screw up a lot. And I have never gotten a warning. I understand context is everything, but are people really getting reported for dropping an F-bomb when they fail a mechanic or something?

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Yes. The only reason you haven't gotten a warning is because literally no one has reported you before. The split second you drop an f-bomb and someone decides to report you, you absolutely will get a warning for it (or worse, depending on where you are on the penalty pyramid).

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Originally Posted by linayar

Question from a non-swearer:

I feel like swearing would be a spontaneous thing. Wouldn't it make sense to just swear in person and not type it out in game? I guess some people do type fast, but it shouldn't be too hard not to swear in game (assuming it is a reportable offense) given the spontaneous nature of the exclamation.

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It 100% is against the ToS:

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3.3 Profanity and Offensive Language. You may not use profanity or any language that a reasonable person would find offensive. The Game is for players aged 13 and older. You agree to behave accordingly.

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The only wiggle room here is the phrasing "what a reasonable person would find offense", and no, that doesn't mean swearing at someone, it literally ends up translating to: "A person in your presence when you swore found it offensive enough to report it and now a GM has to come and talk to you and probably action your account".

The only reason people swear and "nothing happened" is because no one reported it. Swearing absolutely can and will get your account actioned, regardless of how mild or whether it's "at someone" or not. The deciding factor is "did someone report it".

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Originally Posted by Shofie

It 100% is against the ToS

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Ok, good to know.

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Originally Posted by Shofie

Yes. The only reason you haven't gotten a warning is because literally no one has reported you before. The split second you drop an f-bomb and someone decides to report you, you absolutely will get a warning for it (or worse, depending on where you are on the penalty pyramid).

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I guess that's sort of my point. In all the time I've been playing, I've never been reported. And if you knew me you would not consider me a lucky person at all. (I mean, I do consider myself lucky to have a job and good health throughout this pandemic, so in that regard, yes. I'm very fortunate and thankful).

I am not at all discounting those who have been reported. That sucks. What I am saying is that this problem does not seem to be as widespread as the forums and Reddit make it out to be. As evidenced by the numerous people in this thread alone who have likewise said they've never had a problem. Even going back over a decade of playing this game.

I do believe most people you group with are not going to care what you say as long as it's not racist/sexist/homophobic or abusive to someone, and even then they are likely not going to report you. People just want to get in and get out. A good majority of my runs are absolutely silent. And before you say, "That's because of the 3-Strike rule!", it is like that in every MMO I play. Even the ones that have little to no moderation at all. Hell, that's PC gaming in a nutshell. You can hear a pin drop. Consoles is where people tend to be a bit more chatty in my experience, and perhaps that's where the problem is.

Are there exceptions to this? Yes. Just like there are exceptions to every rule. But the exception is not the norm.

It's better safe than sorry, even if someone has gotten away with it for a time. All it takes is one person reporting it, and there's an account strike. It's just not worth it.

The big issue for me is the vagueness of the rules. I have one strike from about 5 years ago on my account was given a suspension without ever getting a warning (which seemed harsh) but I have no idea what I did. I was just told “rule 3.3 profanity” but what did I say? In what instance? To whom? Their privacy policy just amps up the anxiety because you don’t know who, what or where you’re going wrong sometimes.

Bizarrely the forums even have a better policy. I received a warning once and was told what I said and in which thread. Even though I disagreed with it being warning worthy, at least it made it very clear what I’m not allowed to say.

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Originally Posted by Shofie

Yes. The only reason you haven't gotten a warning is because literally no one has reported you before. The split second you drop an f-bomb and someone decides to report you, you absolutely will get a warning for it (or worse, depending on where you are on the penalty pyramid).

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yep, that's usually it. People seem to forget GMs read your chat logs and doesn't know what the context could be where one could be directing their profanity to alliance chat versus making a general statement. A person could report it like you were directing to them, that could happen where someone dies to low HP, they curse in a general statement and the healer might feel it was directed at them.

In general it's just not a good idea to say profanity in any segment of the game where you don't know everyone. Like I said earlier, it's people's already brazen behavior they brought into the game is the issue. Not the strike policy, you are playing in a house of millions of people you don't know who could offended by your language.

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Originally Posted by MrPresident

The big issue for me is the vagueness of the rules. I have one strike from about 5 years ago on my account was given a suspension without ever getting a warning (which seemed harsh) but I have no idea what I did. I was just told “rule 3.3 profanity” but what did I say? In what instance? To whom? Their privacy policy just amps up the anxiety because you don’t know who, what or where you’re going wrong sometimes.

Bizarrely the forums even have a better policy. I received a warning once and was told what I said and in which thread. Even though I disagreed with it being warning worthy, at least it made it very clear what I’m not allowed to say.

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Their privacy policy actually gives you an email where you should be able to basically request logs supplementing your warning/ban.
"Your Rights Over Your Personal Data" - https://companion-app.finalfantasyxi...rivacy-policy/

I think part of the problem is they don't really have a sort of tier system. They seem to have a flat "these things are always a warning" setup. And those could run the gamut from minor to severe. So if they want to keep a system where a warning never falls off, they need to work on their system so some of the severe things are instant warnings but the minor things have to add up to that negative mark.

If they want to keep the "all this counts equally", then they need either some sort of decay system or the trigger for a permanent ban needs to be X amount of warnings in Y time. That still takes care of the problem repeat offenders without punishing players. Especially because they are not the best about being consistent on what is and isn't against ToS and they are pretty crap at communicating things.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Question from a non-swearer:

I feel like swearing would be a spontaneous thing. Wouldn't it make sense to just swear in person and not type it out in game? I guess some people do type fast, but it shouldn't be too hard not to swear in game (assuming it is a reportable offense) given the spontaneous nature of the exclamation.

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Not really if you're used to using it casually. You type the way you speak in those situations. I don't swear in shout but I do in my FC (which I own) and linkshells with my friends. Just like I don't swear at work in a meeting but I use it casually when out with my friends.

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Originally Posted by MrPresident

The big issue for me is the vagueness of the rules. I have one strike from about 5 years ago on my account was given a suspension without ever getting a warning (which seemed harsh) but I have no idea what I did. I was just told “rule 3.3 profanity” but what did I say? In what instance? To whom? Their privacy policy just amps up the anxiety because you don’t know who, what or where you’re going wrong sometimes.

Bizarrely the forums even have a better policy. I received a warning once and was told what I said and in which thread. Even though I disagreed with it being warning worthy, at least it made it very clear what I’m not allowed to say.

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Funny enough, I got a 10 day with no prior warnings for swearing on here (Well more specifically, my quote had a swear). Forum mods are W E I R D.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Their privacy policy actually gives you an email where you should be able to basically request logs supplementing your warning/ban.
"Your Rights Over Your Personal Data" - https://companion-app.finalfantasyxi...rivacy-policy/

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Unless the email got stuck in being sent, which happened to mine.

And is actually terrifyingly common for Square.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Funny enough, I got a 10 day with no prior warnings for swearing on here (Well more specifically, my quote had a swear). Forum mods are W E I R D.

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Oh my God, really? I always had a feeling it would be bad to quote someone using profanity on here, it's why I always edit it out of quotes... looks like my paranoia paid off.. :eek:

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Not really if you're used to using it casually. You type the way you speak in those situations. I don't swear in shout but I do in my FC (which I own) and linkshells with my friends. Just like I don't swear at work in a meeting but I use it casually when out with my friends.

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Ok, so you're saying that it's a more controlled behavior for you.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Funny enough, I got a 10 day with no prior warnings for swearing on here (Well more specifically, my quote had a swear). Forum mods are W E I R D.



Unless the email got stuck in being sent, which happened to mine.

And is actually terrifyingly common for Square.

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If you got 10 days out of the game, then I am pretty sure you have done other things as well before that, and not all of it has to be about being about swearing, it adds to your score each time you get in trouble and it stacks with what previous has done.

The problem is that even if you keep it to yourself and behave, there's cretins who actively seek to report you over the smallest of things. The fact that GMs don't tell you what you did wrong makes it worse. I'm going to copy a post I made in another thread because it will eventually cause big issues for Squeenix if they don't address this.

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Originally Posted by rance-sama

Square-Enix really needs to look into this big time. Not for the sake of RPers or ERPers, but because it will bite them in the rear later on.

Allow me to explain: Consider that you are someone who recently joined FFXIV, you don't RP at all but are having fun with the game, so you decide to pay the next month of your sub and perhaps buying a couple of items from the Mogstation. All good. Then one day you decide to visit the forums, or maybe you read Shout Chat, and see that someone got banned with no explanation whatsoever. That's where things start to get dark and demoralizing.

You, as a player, hope that everything you do in-game doesn't break the rules of the ToS, yet whenever you take a look at incidents like this when people get strikes in their account for no reason given, then you start wondering: "Is it really worth my time, and money, to keep playing this game if the moderation is so fickle and there's no explanation of what I did wrong? I don't want to invest my time or money in a game that might boot me without explanation!".

So, it might not look like much at first when Square-Enix loses the money of someone they banned with little explanation, but when others see this happen they might start reconsidering paying their sub.

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Originally Posted by rance-sama

The problem is that even if you keep it to yourself and behave, there's cretins who actively seek to report you over the smallest of things. The fact that GMs don't tell you what you did wrong makes it worse. I'm going to copy a post I made in another thread because it will eventually cause big issues for Squeenix if they don't address this.

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Thing is this has been the case with FFXIV and the player base keeps increasing. The general player base does not visit reddit or the forums all that much. Also the general player base operates under the notion that they are decent people so thus they will not get reported or have action taken against their account and for the most part they are right. The issue with action being taken against someone's account is a small one that only impacts as a small subset of the player base. For the most part those of us who get reported have a general idea why we got reported extra detail would be nice but if we think long and hard more often then not we can come up with a couple of examples that broke the ToS rule that they often list.

It becomes more of an issue of whether we agree or not but that is kind moot their game their rules.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

If you got 10 days out of the game, then I am pretty sure you have done other things as well before that, and not all of it has to be about being about swearing, it adds to your score each time you get in trouble and it stacks with what previous has done.

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10 day forum. No warning on forum before.

I'm only on 3 day for the game (I emoted too many times in 2015, and used the F word in 2021.)

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

10 day forum. No warning on forum before.

I'm only on 3 day for the game (I emoted too many times in 2015, and used the F word in 2021.)

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Yeah, if you get banned on the forums I think it's pretty much 10 days MINIMUM for any offense. You can't appeal them either, I'm pretty sure.

Things could definitely be given a look over.

With the 3 strikes policy as it is, I'm rather discouraged from even offering advice to anyone for fear of getting a spite report knowing they do not go away once the account is blemished.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

10 day forum. No warning on forum before.

I'm only on 3 day for the game (I emoted too many times in 2015, and used the F word in 2021.)

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Yeah they start with 10 days. I know that feeling.

Just don't do it. Don't be a curse word apologist. It is not normal behavior to curse freely. That's all it is.