Lets talk about the FFXIV player base..

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Originally Posted by metcalta

Forgive me for not being able to read through every post but I did feel the need to weigh in a bit. The sensitivity issue in this game is real, and I see a lot of false equivalences going on in the discussion. When it comes to this game specifically ppl can be very reluctant to accept any advice.
"Hey white mage if you could just dot mobs in here it woukd be a huge help to our group" has either been met with outright no, the person ignoring me, or a vote kick. It definitely has felt like any discussion of how someone is playing can end in a downward spiral, even with the best intentions.
That said, I feel like we as a society need to do better in operating on good-faith, and one needs to be mindful of how they offer up advice. I have a theory that because its all over text ppl interpret things negatively first. Its just a condition of twitter/Facebook. We need to be kinder to one another, and I think we all could do well with a little extra humility.

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Well said, I think we could all stand to be kinder to each other, especially with how things have been this year.

I can only speak from my experience, of course.

I don't personally talk much during roulettes, dungeons and whathaveyou... but in all 7 years of playing this game what stands out to me when it comes to negative interactions is passive-aggressiveness. It is as though passive-aggressiveness is the bread and butter of Duty Finder. It has been exceedingly rare for someone to be caustic in these instances of unpleasant player interactions. Nothing is ever really said "outright." I have hardly ever seen someone directly insult someone else during a DF run.

There are only statements with varying degrees of irony.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

I dunno. I can't think of many other games with communities that outright refuse to get better or do the minimum the game allows you to do. That sorta selfishness on FFXIV's level is a unique bar that no other team games have been able to reach thus far.

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You clearly have never played SWTOR where they don't even like to group in that game, because it's been re-designed over the years as a single player game for the most part. Doing any group-based content in that game is utterly painful.

As for the topic, this is kind of funny. I just spent this past weekend playing WoW and those dungeons are sleepwalks. Bosses die in like 10 seconds, yet the chief complaint on their forums is that everyone is terrible and doesn't want to get better. So, this just seems to be the standard gripe across the entire genre.

I will say this about the FFXIV community. It's a mixed bag. It has the reputation of being one of the best in MMOs, and on the surface that's true. Everyone is very nice and welcoming. But beneath the surface there's a lot of judgmental attitudes. If you make a mistake people will silently judge you or make passive aggressive comments. Recently, however, a lot of people are being more outspoken because of the growing playerbase. The problem is they don't understand what constructive criticism actually is, and will instead resort to flaming. Which is what they do in all the other MMOs out there.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I will say this about the FFXIV community. It's a mixed bag. It has the reputation of being one of the best in MMOs, and on the surface that's true. Everyone is very nice and welcoming. But beneath the surface there's a lot of judgmental attitudes. If you make a mistake people will silently judge you or make passive aggressive comments.

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I feel like people are mistaking "best" with "flawless."

I won't claim that FFXIV has the best MMO community because I don't like to play most MMOs so I would be ignorant of their communities, but if FFXIV indeed has garnered a reputation for being the "best," pointing out any flaw or negative aspect wouldn't really detract from the claim. So to say it's a mixed bag or that it's only "best" on the surface seems disingenuous regarding the actual claim being made or apparent reputation. People are still people, and the more of them that congregate for a long period of time, the more conflict will arise out of ideological differences.

Granted, there may be people who are overselling it and claim that it's perfect, which could easily be disproven, but that still wouldn't make it necessarily not the best either.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I feel like people are mistaking "best" with "flawless."

I won't claim that FFXIV has the best MMO community because I don't like to play most MMOs so I would be ignorant of their communities, but if FFXIV indeed has garnered a reputation for being the "best," pointing out any flaw or negative aspect wouldn't really detract from the claim. So to say it's a mixed bag or that it's only "best" on the surface seems disingenuous regarding the actual claim being made or apparent reputation. People are still people, and the more of them that congregate for a long period of time, the more conflict will arise out of ideological differences.

Granted, there may be people who are overselling it and claim that it's perfect, which could easily be disproven, but that still wouldn't make it necessarily not the best either.

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Not THE best. One of the best. And I went back and read some of the posts in this thread, and there's one right above me that talks about that passive aggressive attitude. So, it's something that's very prevalent here. That's not a slam, it's just stating the obvious.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Not THE best. One of the best. And I went back and read some of the posts in this thread, and there's one right above me that talks about that passive aggressive attitude. So, it's something that's very prevalent here. That's not a slam, it's just stating the obvious.

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Right, it is what it is. And with a large enough of a community, people can have varying subjective experiences with it that can outright contradict each other.

If it's a bad community masquerading as a good one just because they'd get the suspending slap on the wrist otherwise, at best it's average, at worst it's outright bad.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

If it's a bad community masquerading as a good one just because they'd get the suspending slap on the wrist otherwise, at best it's average, at worst it's outright bad.

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A community deals with people's interaction, so you being bad on your own has nothing to do with the community. Deterrence is a valid reason for punishment in law enforcement and expecting that a community can only be good if the people are truly good without law and order being necessary is unrealistic.

[QUOTE=Hazama999;5448012]I can only speak from my experience, of course.

I don't personally talk much during roulettes, dungeons and whathaveyou... but in all 7 years of playing this game what stands out to me when it comes to negative interactions is passive-aggressiveness. It is as though passive-aggressiveness is the bread and butter of Duty Finder. It has been exceedingly rare for someone to be caustic in these instances of unpleasant player interactions. Nothing is ever really said "outright." I have hardly ever seen someone directly insult someone else during a DF run.

There are only statements with varying degrees of irony.[/QUOOTE]

That's because if you write something hostile you will get banned/suspended. So people have to express their displeasure more indirectly. Like if someone is dying to every mechanic, you can't just outright say "you suck" because u get reported so people will say something like "you're an amazing player." Or if you see someone doing 3k dps in level 80 gear, you can't say anything or you will get punished, so people will say "great job with dps!"

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

That's because if you write something hostile you will get banned/suspended. So people have to express their displeasure more indirectly. Like if someone is dying to every mechanic, you can't just outright say "you suck" because u get reported so people will say something like "you're an amazing player." Or if you see someone doing 3k dps in level 80 gear, you can't say anything or you will get punished, so people will say "great job with dps!"

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It's one thing to not want to say something bad, but your examples just seem so unproductive to the point I wonder if they're real examples or just your exaggeration. If people are being told they're great when they're not, then I guess this community deserves what it gets in terms of the quality of players.

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Originally Posted by linayar

It's one thing to not want to say something bad, but your examples just seem so unproductive to the point I wonder if they're real examples or just your exaggeration. If people are being told they're great when they're not, then I guess this community deserves what it gets in terms of the quality of players.

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So being forced to not give any actual feedback by ridiculous ToS but occasionally getting frustrated by that and being sarcastic means that the whole game deserves to suffer.

To borrow the idea of telling that level 80 dps doing 3k how good they are - wow, you have amazing logic.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

So being forced to not give any actual feedback by ridiculous ToS but occasionally getting frustrated by that and being sarcastic means that the whole game deserves to suffer.

To borrow the idea of telling that level 80 dps doing 3k how good they are - wow, you have amazing logic.

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My logic is indeed amazing since being frustrated is no excuse to lie.

And in case you're not aware, sarcasm can be hard to tell over text.

After reading through the thread, I'll share my experience with the community in this aspect.

Regardless of how well-intended and polite you come across some will take advice well, and invariably some don't. Unless something is going awry and there are barriers for clearing content, the most I will say in an instance on average is "o/" or some form of greeting, and some form of "thanks for the group" when all is said and done. I try to sound as encouraging, positive, and polite as possible when giving advice, and overall, it's generally alright.

As far as effort goes, when I'm in group content I try my best to not be a burden on the group, and will play to the utmost of my abilities and efforts, because I value both my personal performance (however well that goes on a given day) and being a team player first. I try to respect the time that my party members are investing, and I hope to receive that same respect for my time (my bar for others is doing bare minimum). Do I expect it, however? No, while it's nice when people go above and beyond, I'm not going to expect people to play in any particular way. What I can do is perform as well as I can, try to be patient with others, and to keep an open mind. I will draw the line at obvious and intentional trolling though.

If people put in a good effort, that's the best I can hope for.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

If it's a bad community masquerading as a good one just because they'd get the suspending slap on the wrist otherwise, at best it's average, at worst it's outright bad.

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Yeah, I really don't get why people think the WoW community is ultra toxic while praising this one. The only thing I can figure is that toxicity in this game is often very passive aggressive, while in WoW it's just ordinary aggressive aggressive. Both games in my experience have always been filled with the standard array of MMO players, and FFXIV is noticeably more WoW-like these days than it was back in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Yeah, I really don't get why people think the WoW community is ultra toxic while praising this one. The only thing I can figure is that toxicity in this game is often very passive aggressive, while in WoW it's just ordinary aggressive aggressive. Both games in my experience have always been filled with the standard array of MMO players, and FFXIV is noticeably more WoW-like these days than it was back in ARR.

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Someone being "passive aggressive," depending on how they go about doing it, can be ignored more easily than someone being directly aggressive. The latter creates a more apparent toxic environment for the entire group.

If you go by the example just above, saying "great DPS" when you don't really mean it can be taken as a real compliment by the other side. So that would actually add to the idea of FFXIV's community being great rather than toxic.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Yeah, I really don't get why people think the WoW community is ultra toxic while praising this one. The only thing I can figure is that toxicity in this game is often very passive aggressive, while in WoW it's just ordinary aggressive aggressive. Both games in my experience have always been filled with the standard array of MMO players, and FFXIV is noticeably more WoW-like these days than it was back in ARR.

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I feel like it's a bit different in WoW in how toxicity presents itself, and perhaps in part because of PvP, and a faction-driven game. The way the players and devs communicate with each other, and the forum culture on WoW is also very different, and I would say it feels a bit more like a cesspool, but you get used to it if you've been around there for 15 years like I have. PvP and faction tribalism is the main driver of toxicity I've found. Sprinkle in the variance of spec balance gaps and feeling like X spec is showered with attention by the devs, while other specs languish, and you'll get a pretty spicy playerbase.

Actually running PvE content, I did raids in BC, HM/Heroic in WotLK, and Mythic and M+ in Legion, I don't think I ran into a lot of (if any) toxic players. Granted a number of those are done with my guildies, but even LFD and pugging across various levels were pretty okay. Not back when we had to LFG in chat channels good, mind you, but it wasn't bad.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

That's because if you write something hostile you will get banned/suspended. So people have to express their displeasure more indirectly. Like if someone is dying to every mechanic, you can't just outright say "you suck" because u get reported so people will say something like "you're an amazing player." Or if you see someone doing 3k dps in level 80 gear, you can't say anything or you will get punished, so people will say "great job with dps!"

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Saying "you suck" in response to someone not playing well isn't helpful for anyone. People don't magically improve with only "you suck" as their guidance.

You can be more diplomatic and helpful with criticisms without getting banned. You can instead say "we need more damage on the boss" or "dodge X mechanic by doing Y". There are sometimes ways to make people aware of a situation and give advice without targeting someone specific with what you say. And if things still don't improve then you can vote to kick.

Also I have very rarely seen players being told they're great when they're not. I honestly rarely see players say anything to each other at all aside from a greeting at the beginning and a gg at the end. I legit can't remember the last time I witnessed very undeserving praise.

But I play in EU on Chaos. Maybe it's different elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Yeah, I really don't get why people think the WoW community is ultra toxic while praising this one. The only thing I can figure is that toxicity in this game is often very passive aggressive, while in WoW it's just ordinary aggressive aggressive. Both games in my experience have always been filled with the standard array of MMO players, and FFXIV is noticeably more WoW-like these days than it was back in ARR.

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WoW is way more toxic because it has a large PvP component, and Blizzard games have always fostered an environment of competition. Even in PvE. And that's not just WoW, by the way. I have found any game that has a PvP focus or a large PvP community tends to be terrible. While games that focus mostly on PvE tend to be nicer.

LOTRO, for example, was known as having one of the best communities in MMOs before FFXIV came out. Maybe it still does but I haven't played that game since like, 2007 or so.

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Originally Posted by KaijinRhada

and the forum culture on WoW is also very different,

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Really gotta disagree there. General Discussion on both forums is basically the same. The only major difference is that the FFXIV playerbase generally has more positive feelings about SE and Yoshi P than the WoW playerbase does about Blizzard and Watcher (or Ghostcrawler and Kalgan before him). How people interact with each other, the sorts of gripes they have about the game, and the lines of conflict are basically all identical. Unlike WoW itself, Blizzard has always treated the forums as a totally optional privilege and is therefore utterly merciless when it comes to banning people from them, no different than SE.

My main issue with FF14's player base is how bad most people are at the game. The average level is just too low. It's like people don't read their toolkits. Some might say the game does a bad job at explaining the toolkit or teaching you how to use it, and not gonna lie, I agree with that to some extent. After all, when I started the game, I just couldn't understand what BRD's Barrage's effect was. I read the description more than once, but I just couldn't understand it for some reason. This is where guides come into play. It doesn't take much time to read a guide about the class you're planning to main, and this will do wonders to how you play it. Most of FF14's players are just too casual and/or lazy to do this. And what's worse is that they usually don't accept advice on how to get better. The usual response is either silence or something along the lines of "you don't pay my sub." It's just unacceptable to have a tank at level 80 who hasn't even heard of mitigation, a BRD who doesn't use songs, etc.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

My main issue with FF14's player base is how bad most people are at the game. The average level is just too low. It's like people don't read their toolkits. Some might say the game does a bad job at explaining the toolkit or teaching you how to use it, and not gonna lie, I agree with that to some extent. After all, when I started the game, I just couldn't understand what BRD's Barrage's effect was. I read the description more than once, but I just couldn't understand it for some reason. This is where guides come into play.

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Almost all online guides are only useful for end-game players, since they're written by and for end-game players.

People aren't lazy for not reading guides for the simple reason that there are no useful leveling guides.

There are guides that list the skills, and their tooltips, out there. Most of them were written back in pre-Heavensward days. Things have changed. Greatly.

I have yet to come across an MMO where there is an active attempt to teach you "how to use" your skillset. Trial and error is the norm for this game (and for many non-MMOs as well, when you think about it).

Most players aren't bad at the game. The game they are playing does not require them to play at end-game skill levels, nor would they remain playing the game if it did.

Some solutions:

• use /yell in major cities offering to help new players learn their class/job
  
• run a twitch channel instructing players on how to perform their class/job well enough to run extreme trials
  
• Put up YouTube tutorials for the class/job you are playing, using an avatar that is geared and leveled appropriately for the player level you're trying to win over
  
• Write up a 'leveling guide' that meets your expectations of what a level 52 NIN should know in Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Almost all online guides are only useful for end-game players, since they're written by and for end-game players.

People aren't lazy for not reading guides for the simple reason that there are no useful leveling guides.

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Yes they are.

Reading a guide about a job at cap is fine to do before you level it. I've done it for everything after my first job. It's advantageous not only to know what you're doing but also to plan your hotbars accordingly.

I think only BLM has a convoluted enough leveling experience that an 80 guide won't help you much from the start and even then it'd certainly be a huge improvement over going in blind.

Ignoring available information is definitely lazy.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Yes they are.

Reading a guide about a job at cap is fine to do before you level it. I've done it for everything after my first job. It's advantageous not only to know what you're doing but also to plan your hotbars accordingly.

I think only BLM has a convoluted enough leveling experience that an 80 guide won't help you much from the start and even then it'd certainly be a huge improvement over going in blind.

Ignoring available information is definitely lazy.

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There's even a guide (or at least used to be) on the Balance Discord of the BLM rotation in lvl tiers.

Plus it's only a matter of going there and asking "Ok guys, what do I do as (X job) as I level it up?", if none of the guides say what to do. And for most jobs, people are fine with just following the max level rotation but only using whatever skills they have available at the moment.

ff14 tries to build content for both hardcore players and casual players. In my opinion it does pretty well at it. But naturally there is going to be interactions between those large groups. The causals call the hardcores toxic and the hardcore's call the casuals sensitive bad gamers.

You could literally posted this exact same title and the OP could have been talking about how some person was insulting them while playing and that's the reason ff14 community is bad.

but if you want my opinion, whenever someone says someone got "easily butthurt" you were probably pretty rude whether you believe it or not. Just understand everyone is different and plays different and enjoys the game differently blah blah basic human respect.


and also yes actually, there is currently a very large influx of new players

There are plenty of guides that go through the 1 to 80 experience, there's a dude who makes youtube guides on all of the jobs fresh to max level. You are LAZY if you don't apply yourself.

An endgame guide for a job teaches you everything you need to know about how the job functions. You just keep revisiting it when you get something new and need to know how it works.

L A Z Y

This is just people in general, all communities are like this when it gets large enough, means more moving parts to the clock so to speak, so more friction and things to go wrong increases.

Only thing to be is behaved, courteous and respectful of different players. If someone is bad, don't shout down to them and if someone is toxic, say so and report and move on. You probably never have to see them again 20 mins after, which probably helps foster this "toxic" community as can just throw away people you don't like and choose to never interact with again, or even extremely unlikely to see them/recognise them.

Hey all, let's try to remember there's folks with disabilities and what not that make it hard for them to "git gud".

Calling people lazy is well, sort of rude tbh. This game was not created with you specifically in mind, get over yourselves.

I get that doing savage and EX you should be familiar and what not with your jobs, but for normal dungeons and raids, you need to chill.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

Hey all, let's try to remember there's folks with disabilities and what not that make it hard for them to "git gud".

Calling people lazy is well, sort of rude tbh. This game was not created with you specifically in mind, get over yourselves.

I get that doing savage and EX you should be familiar and what not with your jobs, but for normal dungeons and raids, you need to chill.

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Most of the playerbase aren't disabled people, so please kindly stop using that excuse. Game wasn't created with disabled people specifically in mind either.

If everyone "chilled" you wouldn't clear even a normal dungeon. You can see that by all the threads of people failling solo duties before very easy mode was introduced (they didn't have better players to bail them out, which is what "chilling" requires: leeching off of others) or when someone gets a party of bots (which are usually programmed to do the bare minimum and even fail at that. Then you get 1+ hour dungeon runs).

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Most of the playerbase aren't disabled people, so please kindly stop using that excuse. Game wasn't created with disabled people specifically in mind either.

If everyone "chilled" you wouldn't clear even a normal dungeon. You can see that by all the threads of people failling solo duties before very easy mode was introduced (they didn't have better players to bail them out, which is what "chilling" requires: leeching off of others) or when someone gets a party of bots (which are usually programmed to do the bare minimum and even fail at that. Then you get 1+ hour dungeon runs).

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I mean, I was simply pointing out that those people exist; I have come across quite a handful. I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, nor anyone else saying similar things you're saying.
I do come across many players (a bigger handful, obviously) of players that do leech and do nothing period, or get sensitive when it comes to taking friendly advice.

Didn't mean anything ill with what I said. I'm mainly trying to point this out to folks that don't even keep this in mind at all, or as a friendly reminder that they DO exist is all. You'll never know what is going on with the player on the other side of the screen.

Low level dungeons and what not are so braindead, that it hardly matters. That doesn't excuse the players that can learn more though, clearly.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

Didn't mean anything ill with what I said.

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But also:

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

get over yourselves.

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Anyway:

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

Calling people lazy is well, sort of rude tbh. This game was not created with you specifically in mind, get over yourselves.

I get that doing savage and EX you should be familiar and what not with your jobs, but for normal dungeons and raids, you need to chill.

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I call 'em as I see 'em. What to think of a tank who doesn't use mitigation at level 80? Or a BRD who doesn't use songs? Or someone who uses aoe rotation on a single target? Being decent at the game doesn't mean being an orange percentile. It means at least knowing the basics of the class you play and be able to pull your weight.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Almost all online guides are only useful for end-game players, since they're written by and for end-game players.

People aren't lazy for not reading guides for the simple reason that there are no useful leveling guides.

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I don't understand your logic. Playing the class doesn't change drastically whether you're doing end-game or not. The class plays almost exactly the same. Leveling guides aren't necessary since if you read any guide that explains how the class and its skills work, you'll be able to get a general idea of how to play it at almost any level. All you have to do is tweak small things here and there. Oh, and just so we're clear, the bad players I'm talking about are mostly players who are level 80 and doing end-game stuff. I personally rarely do low-level stuff anymore.

Edit: Besides, I consider the average level low not just because people don't know how to play the classes but also because they don't make an effort to learn mechanics or pay attention to their surroundings. People get hit by the exact same mechanic over and over and over. A lot of people might say "but, but first timers." Sorry, but being a first timer doesn't give you a free ticket to mess up easy mechanics, especially ones that keep coming back over and over in different duties, or keep messing up after seeing the mechanic multiple times. Sometimes, it feels like some people turn off their brains when they play the game.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

Hey all, let's try to remember there's folks with disabilities and what not that make it hard for them to "git gud".

Calling people lazy is well, sort of rude tbh. This game was not created with you specifically in mind, get over yourselves.

I get that doing savage and EX you should be familiar and what not with your jobs, but for normal dungeons and raids, you need to chill.

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If there weren't people who cared about their performance and trying to improve a lot of the lazy/bad/whatever excuse you want to make up players would still be trying to get through the Shinryu story battle.

There may be two main sides to this coin but only one side needs the other to carry them through content.

I cant stand these topics. why do people expect every community to be universally positive and of one mind? Crappy people exist in every medium in the world wasting your time generalizing it as "ffxiv unique player issue" is all sorts of stupid. get over it

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

Hey all, let's try to remember there's folks with disabilities and what not that make it hard for them to "git gud".

Calling people lazy is well, sort of rude tbh. This game was not created with you specifically in mind, get over yourselves.

I get that doing savage and EX you should be familiar and what not with your jobs, but for normal dungeons and raids, you need to chill.

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I understand where you're coming from and I think your heart is in the right place, but you need to temper your optimism with a dose of reality. Many have stated that we're not looking for 95% percentile plays, just be decent and pull your own weight. For some reason asking for personal accountability is a big no-no here; yet asking to get carried is prim and proper. If everyone "chilled" like you said, many people would've stuck at Royal Menagerie, thinking why Shinryu is immortal.

Just to clarify after reading a few posts here, there is a difference between passive aggressive and sarcasm. Sarcasm is telling someone who is doing crappy DPS "Amazing DPS!" Passive aggressive is telling a a group with a crappy healer "Not sure what happened there. I've never died on that during the eight years I've been playing. Weird. Guess we'll just have to take it slow."

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

Hey all, let's try to remember there's folks with disabilities and what not that make it hard for them to "git gud".

Calling people lazy is well, sort of rude tbh. This game was not created with you specifically in mind, get over yourselves.

I get that doing savage and EX you should be familiar and what not with your jobs, but for normal dungeons and raids, you need to chill.

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Dungeons are one thing, but even normal raids are still difficult enough that if you get a bunch of people who don't really know how to play, you're gonna have a bad time. It's not really fair to the other seven people in a group to be a burden and make them carry you because you can't be bothered to do something as simple as spend a few minutes reading a guide on the Balance to make sure you have a good idea of when to hit your buttons.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

Hey all, let's try to remember there's folks with disabilities and what not that make it hard for them to "git gud".

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If a person has a disability that can very much affect how well they perform they should try to group up with people they know if possible. Not just because people you know would be more likely to be supportive if you're having difficulty, but also because pugs have no way of knowing if you're disabled unless you tell them. Even if you do, explaining a disability can be lengthy and some people would assume it's a lie designed to get away with certain things...which of course can lead to drama.

I'm disabled but I certainly wouldn't ever reveal this to a pug group. I don't really want to be in the position in which people would be doubting the validity of my claim. It's too much of a headache. I don't join pugs to debate about medical issues, and pugs don't pug to carry the heavy burdens of someone else, disabled or otherwise.

Just like anyone else disabled people are responsible for what they put other people through. If you're having a really really bad day with your disability and expect pugs to just carry you...that's not cool. If I'm having a really bad day I play with people I know, stick to content where I wouldn't have difficulty, or entirely avoid playing. Adjusting what you play and with who, is taking responsibility for your impact on other people.

Everyone needs to be realistic about what they can achieve as a player. Whether you're new, rusty, not particularly skilled, or disabled. Unfortunately not everyone has the potential to be an all-star raider because life is not fair. We're not all dealt the same hand. But what also isn't fair is expecting people to carry you just because you are unable to or are too lazy to improve. Adjust your expectations whether that means realising you have much to learn, or that life dealt you a hand that makes you peak earlier than some others.

If you are below the requirements to do certain content but still badly want to do it, find a group that is okay with dealing with your particular skillset. Not only does this mean you won't be putting pugs in an unpleasant position, you will most likely find that you have a far higher success rate of completing content. You won't be getting kicked so you would get the opportunity to learn to deal with your limitations better, or even find ways to overcome them.

That being said a lot of players need to adjust their expectations of other people. I can't even begin to count the amount of times I have seen people in the forums complain about players in normal mode DF that wouldn't parse at least very high green. They rarely explicitly say it but when you see the things they complain about players not doing, pretty often they're asking for far above the requirement of the content. Personally I adjust my judgement of other players based on the content we're doing. I'm very forgiving in normal mode, but in ex or savage my expectations rise very significantly, because that content requires far more from players than normal mode.

Yes I know genuinely awful players exist, even those awful by normal mode standards...but that is a problem with literally every multiplayer game. Great, bad and everything in-between exist in every gaming community. No matter how many tutorials are in games, how many great guides there are, there will always be people who fall between the cracks that make you wonder how they got as far as they did. It sucks but this will never change. It's just how people are.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk :P

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Really gotta disagree there. General Discussion on both forums is basically the same. The only major difference is that the FFXIV playerbase generally has more positive feelings about SE and Yoshi P than the WoW playerbase does about Blizzard and Watcher (or Ghostcrawler and Kalgan before him). How people interact with each other, the sorts of gripes they have about the game, and the lines of conflict are basically all identical. Unlike WoW itself, Blizzard has always treated the forums as a totally optional privilege and is therefore utterly merciless when it comes to banning people from them, no different than SE.

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The less-positive outlook form the WoW forums, I feel, makes a pretty big difference. There's going to be shitposts on both forums, but it's a lot more prevalent there. The ire that the playerbase on WoW towards the dev team is more highly pronounced; while it maybe because it's a longer running game, and some of the ire is deserved (the lack of QA on a lot of content and patch releases, and terrible dev to community communication, the cognitive dissonance in the writing, etc...), the negativity and the quantative amount of it does add to a lot of the difference in the atmosphere.

Just going to add that on the WoW forums, you can get away with a higher level of belligerence, combativeness and aggression there than you can here. As some of my WoW friends have put it, the general population of FFXIV in game and on the forums feels a lot more carebear than that of WoW's.