Red Mage: I am not a Back line class

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Originally Posted by Bled

I don't understand how fencer makes it so there can be no casting options, especially with the current armory system.

As i see it the fencer class will give the melee where the job will pry give haste, regen, en-spells, and other RDM staples. To add on top of that all they need to do is adjust the base stats for cross class spells to make a customize your own RDM type set up.

RDM could either be the best thing to happen to FFXIV or the worse abomination, imo of course.

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I never said rdm wouldn't be a melee caster. it will be. I'm just saying a lot of people are not taken in to
account that it's a classic job that people assume it will be added as a class. It's not going to be added
as a class. there is no doubt that rdm with be added and it will be added as fencer will be it's class it's born
from.

the spells and abiltys that people are coming up with are unrealistic to the format this game has taken. SE is
not going to your overhaul the whole battle system again to come up with this style of RDM. I just don't want to
see all the QQ over having a RDM people didn't expect.

You get 15 class abilities 5 job and 5 cross class. I like the idea of bring back some of the removed thm spells

no order implied. Fencer

1 dia
2 bio
3 banish (As a WS with an HP requirement, combos with Dia , combo Effect steals HP based on dmg)
4 scrouge (As a WS with an MP Requirement, Combos with Bio, Combo Effect steals MP based on dmg)
5 Sacrifice
6 Paralyze
7 Silence
8 Slow
9 Sacrament (makes next enfeebling effect Aoe)
10 quick strike (basic ws)
11 quick reflex (parries next attack)
12 wasp sting ( piercing strike after parry, induces poison)
13 Dual Slash (two-fold ws, combo quick strike, Condition from the side. effect gravity. )
14 Stab (ws Combo Quick strike, Condition from the side.)
15 Upswing Stab (WS Combo Stab From the rear, effect imperial)

RDM:

Enchantment: Imbed your blade with Magical enchantment, Astral dmg by day, Umberal by night.
Warlocks ward. Aoe ability, Protect your party from enfeebling effects
Dispel (Removes Mob Enhancement)
Hexa Blade (Ws Five-fold attack, Combo Dual Slash, Lowers defense to Enfeebling Magic )
Barrier: Renders all party members in AOE Immune to all Magical attacks. 15 minute ability

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Why are people trying to make RDM into what 11 had, RDM should not get refresh nor should they be an enfeeblist.

I agree that summoner should not have any healing magic, give them cross class skills of a THM but not CNJ.

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We are lacking a PURE Enfeebler. I believe rdm will only cross class with gla and thm thus the way I made the build type
I did.

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Originally Posted by Klive

I'm not saying the Red Mage shouldn't be an enfeebler mage/melee, I'm saying FF14 probably isn't going to copy FFXI.Our BLM and WHM copy more from FFIII than anything else; hence WHM having stone and wind magic. I would guess they are more likely to use that as a template over FFXI Red Mage.

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Irony of this is FFXI was designed as "what they always wanted to do with FFIII but never could" so it's essentially another version of FFIII and the WHM "with stone and wind magic" for example was later turned into SCH, which the DS version had, but not original.

So it wouldn't be an exact copy, but RDM is no longer the weak blm/whm with a sword it used to be, it's a lot more versatile now, to the point it can outlive pretty much every job in the game (XI), so they have yet another style to build from.

Which was the point of even mentioning their last MMO.

I'm seeing quite a bit of overlap with the builds posted here, which is a good thing. It means we all have something in common in what we want to see from Red Mage in XIV. One point of contention I noticed is the difference between people wanting RDM to be either a dedicated enfeebler or a generalist mage, so we should discuss that further.

Personally I prefer the dedicated enfeebler for several reasons:

First, the game presently does not have any dedicated enfeebler and RDM could potentially fill that role.

Second, it seems to me that the current class/job mechanics lean toward a system where none of the abilities or spells are copied exactly between one class/job and another. Making RDM a generalist mage would practically require that this trend would have to be broken to accommodate it.

Third and most importantly, being a generalist mage in XI is exactly what got RDM shafted in party roles. Hell RDM didn't even originally have the Refresh spell, which had to be added to even give RDM any kind of position in a party at all, and which ended up being it's only role for a large part of the game. So basically I fear a repetition of this in XIV if we attempt to recreate a generalist type of Red Mage. A debuffing specialist would be less likely to be forced out of the role it was designed to fill. Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of RDM as a versatile generalist mage, but it runs the risk of being forced into a specific role that it was not designed for and all that versatility just goes to waste and the job becomes very unpleasant to play.

^ They already implied that arcanist would be the enfeebler.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

^ They already implied that arcanist would be the enfeebler.

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They also implied it would be trap style, not necessarily magic. We have LNC/DRG/MRD/WAR/PGL/MNK that does melee style damage, where was it written there can only be 1 style of enfeeblist?

I like magey RDM, but tanking on RDM was a blast as well.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

They also implied it would be trap style, not necessarily magic. We have LNC/DRG/MRD/WAR/PGL/MNK that does melee style damage, where was it written there can only be 1 style of enfeeblist?

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Check your shoe ?

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Originally Posted by Eremor

Third and most importantly, being a generalist mage in XI is exactly what got RDM shafted in party roles. Hell RDM didn't even originally have the Refresh spell, which had to be added to even give RDM any kind of position in a party at all, and which ended up being it's only role for a large part of the game. So basically I fear a repetition of this in XIV if we attempt to recreate a generalist type of Red Mage. A debuffing specialist would be less likely to be forced out of the role it was designed to fill. Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of RDM as a versatile generalist mage, but it runs the risk of being forced into a specific role that it was not designed for and all that versatility just goes to waste and the job becomes very unpleasant to play.

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Agreed, fortunately FFXIV's game mechanics will likely prevent what happened in FFXI from happening here, if it's designed around the fact that Fencer / RDM can't have everything like in previous games. Considering jobs like WHM and BLM don't have everything either, it's almost guaranteed we won't see a hodgepodge of every elemental enspell, gain-stat, or nukes taking up every slot in the action bar especially when you throw in a few combos for the melee side.

If you look at the patch notes for 1.20 at the different jobs level progression / abilities gained, you can actually see SE followed a specific pattern for all the jobs when they rebuilt them, so I wouldn't expect Fencer / RDM to diverge from it.

BTW: SE already pointed out RDM would be an enfeebler / melee class in the 3rd players pool, doesn't mean it still won't borrow from white and black magic with melee on the side however. Thought I'd bring that up sense alot of people have been kinda torn about it.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

For a melee to use WS > WS > Spell requires a lot of standing in one place.

Unless you make it WS > Spell (combo effect is no cast time)

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HE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

Combo Effect: Removes Casting time.

I think they should make the spells in combos more generic too. So instead of dooing WS > WS > Paralyze you can do WS > WS > Any Enfeeble.

Idm if RDM is front line, mid line, back line, 500 lightyears line, JUST KEEP THE DAMN MAGES REFRESHED, and me hasted.

I'd be a blue wizard but I'll settle for white for now...

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Idm if RDM is front line, JUST KEEP YOURSELF REFRESHED and hasted.

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Fixed.

Looks like I didn't have to return to keep the melee movement going. Kudos to the OP for having the guts to get this thread started. Now with that in mind...

What I would like to see is SE play to RDM's hybrid nature by allowing two classes to equip a RDM crystal. One of them being Fencer, the other being Conjurer. Obviously, when Fencer has the RDM crystal, the result would be a melee mage that focuses on dealing elemental magic through sword strikes as well as enfeebling with very minor and limited support. CON using a RDM crystal could then yield a support-based caster that focuses on staying in the back and using spells.

The only thing that is VERY risky about the above is that desperation for healers may cause one to be preferred over the other, whereas I would want both to be useful so that there is no overlap between FNC/RDM and CON/RDM when both are in a party. I'll have to go back and mull over some of the suggestions I've made since these forums began and see what works. I hadn't realized the weapon classes had been notably trimmed in terms of abilities and spells, for one.

You can have that and I'll take the buffing/debuffing/healing gypsy/dancer :D kay?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

What I would like to see is SE play to RDM's hybrid nature by allowing two classes to equip a RDM crystal.

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This is an interesting suggestion, but it's also a giant exceptional case, making it unattractive to devs. This would require they adapt their system to accept a 2:1 class:job ratio, all for the sake of a single job. When you also consider that a job is made up primarily of actions from its class (since currently, jobs only add a handful of abilities) you're making a lot of additional balance issues. It's basically twice the work for only one class.

Not that it's impossible, but I don't see it as being a likely idea unless they establish a new precedent where multiple classes branch into multiple jobs.

I see it being far more likely that we simply get a Fencer:Red Mage deal. Which I am perfectly fine with, though I see as being a bit wonky given that currently, you can only set 5 actions from other jobs. Assuming they give RDM access to CON/THM actions (as they should) it's going to be tough and highly dependent on situation which actions you're going to set.

Now they could give fencer some inherent magic actions, or even duplicate actions from other classes, but that sets another exceptional case, and so I also see that as being unlikely.

I suppose if I had to say what I hope to see, it's a Fencer that is half Fencer, half Magic Swordsman, with a wide variety of attacks and abilities that pull from the more physically oriented Fencer (Reflex, Nighthawk, etc.) and attacks that pull from the more magically oriented Magic Swordsman (Spellblade, etc.) Culminating in a DPS / debuff / evasion off-tank.

The tough part with this approach though would be the Red Mage specific abilities. Red Mage staples like doublecast and chainspell would feel awkward, as they're enhancement skills for spells. And as any sort of spellblade/fencing action would be a TP/MP weapon skill, not a spell, Red Mage would have job actions that can't be applied to any of the job's native actions. I suppose Paladin already has a little of this though, so it's not unprecedented.

White Mage also already essentially has doublecast, meaning it would have to function differently to warrant being a unique ability. Hopefully a much quicker cooldown, and perhaps the ability to cast the same spell on two different targets or two spells on the same target with one cast timer. (I.E. simultaneously)

If it were possible to make some sort of ability that functioned differently based on what you combo it with, some sort of context sensitive nuke as a RDM action might work, but again that's another new exception. But for example, Fire Sword > RDM Nuke (Becomes a Fire nuke for the combo.) Ice Sword > RDM Nuke (Becomes an Ice nuke for the combo.)

And unless doublecast were on an extremely quick cooldown, RDM would be incredibly sub par in healing when they needed to fill that role.

Ideally I would love to see RDM have various stances to play various roles that degrade over time, forcing you to switch roles over the course of a battle to essentially plug holes, meaning you could never take on any given role for an entire battle, meaning you'd never be pigeon-holed as a class into a specific role.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what SE has in store. Given the system they've set up for class:job relationships though, I can't see how they can possibly create a RDM that can make everyone happy, or adhere to FF precedents for how RDM works.

Edit: Instead of having an option between rapiers and daggers, I'd love to see RDM using rapier main hand/ main gauche offhand, as a parrying only offhand. Whether as two separate items or one "two-handed" set it doesn't matter to me. I'd also love to see Celes' "Runic" ability reappear for Fencer, allowing them to negate a single magic effect and regain MP for it. Would be a nice anti-magic tanking ability.

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Originally Posted by Ramsey

This is an interesting suggestion, but it's also a giant exceptional case

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Well, RDM is in the unique position of being the original hybrid job. Then again, I was trying to keep those who liked playing in the back lines in mind.

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This would require they adapt their system to accept a 2:1 class:job ratio, all for the sake of a single job. When you also consider that a job is made up primarily of actions from its class (since currently, jobs only add a handful of abilities) you're making a lot of additional balance issues. It's basically twice the work for only one class.

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True. On the upside, if might remind someone at SE that each job is capable of more than one task alone. I know it's way too late to bring that to the table, but meh.

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Not that it's impossible, but I don't see it as being a likely idea unless they establish a new precedent where multiple classes branch into multiple jobs.

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Well, I think the Thief and Summoner enthusiasts are sort of hoping for this. My RDM suggestion kind of paves the way for them.

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I suppose if I had to say what I hope to see, it's a Fencer that is half Fencer, half Magic Swordsman, with a wide variety of attacks and abilities that pull from the more physically oriented Fencer (Reflex, Nighthawk, etc.) and attacks that pull from the more magically oriented Magic Swordsman (Spellblade, etc.) Culminating in a DPS / debuff / evasion off-tank.

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I would be perfectly fine with this.

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Red Mage staples like doublecast and chainspell would feel awkward, as they're enhancement skills for spells.

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Which were in the single player RPGs because you don't have 7/15 other people scrutinizing your build and what your Red Mages did. I'd be more willing to consider Temper and Composure as more fitting RDM staples, specialy in light of the abilities you mentioned being given out to BLM and WHM. Which I'm perfectly fine with because I want the job to lean more towards magic swordsman.

For all the folks who are super-adamant about RDM being a melee/white/black hybrid because that is what it was in various other Final Fantasy games... it's also worth keeping in mind that in most cases Red Mage also ended up being terrible mid/late game in a bunch of those games. There was usually a more advanced class that totally dropped the melee and was white/black magic combo only that totally outclassed Red Mage. :P

For people who *want* a white/black, healing/damaging combo *mage*, there are a whole lot of other awesome Final Fantasy classes/flavors you can pull from. Sage is the obvious choice, but frankly I would <3 at the return of Scholar in some form, because it is *neat*. There's no need to try and force RDM in that role when there are other options for that role, and so many people who would love for RDM to be a real front-line magic fencer.

That said, it's worth keeping in mind that in a lot of the single player FF games (and I guess in FFXI for that matter) there was a big pool of black magic spells, and a big pool of white magic spells, and different classes were grated access to different amounts of spells from those pools. FFXIV is structured a lot differently, and so "here's yet another slightly different combination of those same skills" isn't going to work. Everything is going to need it's own unique, focused skillset. I think the discussion about "would you rather see RDM as a DD or debuffer" makes sense (although it may be too late for that; MNK is already kind of sneaking into the elementalist melee role). And maybe doing something vaguely DNC-ish so they can also off heal a bit would be ok. But trying to do some wonky hybrid thing so they can front line or back line and fill all roles or whatever seems a bit much.

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Originally Posted by JTSpender

For all the folks who are super-adamant about RDM being a melee/white/black hybrid because that is what it was in various other Final Fantasy games... it's also worth keeping in mind that in most cases Red Mage also ended up being terrible mid/late game in a bunch of those games.

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This is true, but it's true of a bunch of other jobs. Red Mage never became totally useless, it just didn't excel as much in any one area. Which is nice, which is sort of what I personally want. That said, there's obviously a difficulty with this in an MMO setting, which is why I think a degrading stance system would be a nice way to make Red Mage the jack of all trades that it ought to be.

Cycle through melee, nuking/debuffing and healing/buffing stances, and the longer you stay in one stance, the less effective skills of that type become. Encouraging the player to plug the gaps in a group and then switch to the next task.

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Originally Posted by Firon

No actually most games where summoner is tied to a char and not a equipped item like FF 6-8 it has mostly had white magic. Rydia had both white and black Eiko and dagger both had white magic and so did yuna That right there is like the whole FF series iconic summoners...

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Yuna started with whm spells, but early on you could make her into a blm and retire Lulu completely. Of the FF games I have played, which is X +, only smn has been tied to whm in only one of them: X. In X the system allowed you to multi-class your characters starting around the time you left Luca. Pre-X I can't speak to.

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Originally Posted by Mireille

Yuna started with whm spells, but early on you could make her into a blm and retire Lulu completely. Of the FF games I have played, which is X +, only smn has been tied to whm in only one of them: X. In X the system allowed you to multi-class your characters starting around the time you left Luca. Pre-X I can't speak to.

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FFX is a job-less FF, though not entirely irrelevant, the importance of that relationship is slightly diminished because, as you say, you can make anyone learn anything.

That said... The relationship between mage classes and summoner has been back and forth. In Final Fantasy Tactics, It's Black Mage > Time Mage > Summoner to unlock Summoner. FFTA is Elementalist > Summoner. FF9 Eiko and Garnet are White Mages but in FF4 Rydia has Black and White magic.

There's really no strict relationship between WHM and SMN or BLM and SMN. They could easily include a new class for Summoner to be linked out of. Arcanist? Oracle? Who knows.

Jack of all trades is the way to go for Red Mage.

They should be on the front line, slashing gracefully and comboing with a sweet looking sword.

TP for weapon skills and MP for buffing party members and enfeebling enemies. Buff spells should last as long as other buffs like Protect. Enfeebles on the other hand should last a shorter time and have lower cost.

They wear medium/light armor so what will keep them alive for close encounters will be powerful single target buffs that they can cast on themselves.

Red Mage should never be as powerful in casting cures or elemental spells so as not to compete with White Mages and Black Mages. They should be there to enhance the party members effectiveness, not replace members roles.

a

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Originally Posted by Draven

Red Mage should never be as powerful in casting cures or elemental spells so as not to compete with White Mages and Black Mages. They should be there to enhance the party members effectiveness, not replace members roles.

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If you do that all you end up with is a watered down bard with mediocre heals and nukes. Elemental nukes would be better tied to melee somehow (spellblade, instant cast as part of a combo) instead of being stand-alone spells. Heals should be situational and on an as-needed basis, where hardcasting outside of procs would eat up more MP or something along those lines. Generalists do not work in MMOs, and we have to keep that in mind moving forward. Because of this, RDM is due for an adaptation rather than try to copy/paste what it was in prior FF's, including XI.

Someone mentioned Sage earlier and that got me thinking. First of all it is essentially the back line Red Mage, very much akin to Scholar as it appeared in FFXI. But scholar has never been particularly powerful before that incarnation.

It would be fun to see Scholar as a class with Sage as a job. With access to mid level black and white magic, and more importantly as Sage abilities... Meteor and Recall! Recall would be hilarious and fun, randomly cast a spell, occasionally resulting in a high level cast they don't have access to.

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Originally Posted by Ramsey

Cycle through melee, nuking/debuffing and healing/buffing stances, and the longer you stay in one stance, the less effective skills of that type become. Encouraging the player to plug the gaps in a group and then switch to the next task.

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Except... this doesn't actually work in an MMO. Nobody is going to invite that to a party. You have to *actually* fill a role. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the power of hybrid characters at being "the right thing at the right time" when everyone else is locked in their role... I play a lot of hybrid characters and I've seen this firsthand. But people still need/expect you to fill a primary role. Being forced out of a role because of diminishing returns is kind of bad and defeats the whole purpose.

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Originally Posted by JTSpender

Except... this doesn't actually work in an MMO. Nobody is going to invite that to a party. You have to *actually* fill a role. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the power of hybrid characters at being "the right thing at the right time" when everyone else is locked in their role... I play a lot of hybrid characters and I've seen this firsthand. But people still need/expect you to fill a primary role. Being forced out of a role because of diminishing returns is kind of bad and defeats the whole purpose.

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This is not unequivocally true, there are examples in MMOs where pure hybrid characters work. It's actually more of a player construct, a preconceived notion that's been perpetuated that they don't work. One of the reasons it's a commonly accepted idea, is that in practice a hybrid class is more difficult to play.

One of the major issues with hybrids playing "plug the hole" is that they can never actually plug the hole with any level of effectiveness, without being broken. If a hybrid can tank as well as a tank, heal as well as a healer, or nuke as well as a nuker, what's the point of any other class?

On the other hand, make them weaker at all of those things, and they can never perform the role well enough to make the difference.

A stance that allows them to temporarily excel at a task, and diminishes over time would solve that problem, though it would require some fine tuning.

Tank's dead? Take over until they're raised and rebuffed. Suddenly a lot of people are at low health? Help out with heals. Anything else? Cycle between magic and melee damage. The reality is it's all about tuning group content so that there's enough flexibility for that class to have a use.

Bringing a Red Mage along, if they had skills like this, would be giving your group flexibility and a safety net, and perhaps losing a fraction of efficiency in a situation where everything goes 100% as planned.

Certainly, this sort of rotating through roles would require a great deal of player skill, but the reality is all classes are not equal in terms of required skill. I don't mind playing a class where people have low expectations due to a general lack of skilled players, as long as I can excel at that class enough to surprise people. Not like there isn't a precedent for classes like this in FFXI.

TL;DR

If you've already decided that it doesn't work, you're not thinking hard enough. Perhaps my solution isn't the answer, but there is an answer.

And if you think that making it so they can do everyone else's job just as well by rotating a stance, perhaps you want OP rdm. lol

For me the easiest way to put it would be to make rdm like Aions Chanter class. That was a true combat mage.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

For me the easiest way to put it would be to make rdm like Aions Chanter class. That was a true combat mage.

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I forgot about Chanter...but yeah that true! They were always usually DDing the mob..could back up heal if the cleric (or whatever it was called, i cant remember lol) died or needed secondary healer. I remember them having some badass buffs too.

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

I forgot about Chanter...but yeah that true! They were always usually DDing the mob..could back up heal if the cleric (or whatever it was called, i cant remember lol) died or needed secondary healer. I remember them having some badass buffs too.

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Exactly word for word correct. :)

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Originally Posted by JTSpender

Except... this doesn't actually work in an MMO. Nobody is going to invite that to a party. You have to *actually* fill a role. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the power of hybrid characters at being "the right thing at the right time" when everyone else is locked in their role... I play a lot of hybrid characters and I've seen this firsthand. But people still need/expect you to fill a primary role. Being forced out of a role because of diminishing returns is kind of bad and defeats the whole purpose.

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This is especially true with a party size of 8, the bigger the party the more roles you can fill so the less need for a hybrid class.

To the person who suggest stances, I kind of like that idea but you shouldn't be able to change stance during combat this will solve some of the issue with players filling all rolls at a switch of a button.

I see no harm in a class that can play all roles, as long as you can't play all roles at once, this is also taking into account gear, materia and stat choices of course.

What if we give the red mage... red magic?

Why don´t we break the classic old concept of Red Mage third part WHM, third part BLM , another third part WAR and full part inefficent and unoriginal ?

Let the red mage focus in something different, something new never made in a MMORPG before, a class with an unique function no other class or job can imitate. Let it be something that isn´t in the old categories of "Nuker", "Damage dealer", "Healer" ect, lets make a really unique job with a real function.

FFXIV is supposed to be a new generation MMORPG, but I´m tired of this concept of new generation, impresive graphics and animations are great and I loved them, it´s true, but if SE only focus in reusing and improving what is already done, what sense it makes to call it "new" ?. They should create new things, never seen in other MMORPG, new jobs with unique function, new battle mechanics never seen before, let the red mage be something new and groundbreaking, make new and interesting jobs, not just reuse them and change two or three thinks. A Jack of all trade is an horrible and unoriginal idea, lets take 3 classes and mix them, yeah, that looks like something original isn´t it ?. It was good back in 1987 maybe, but now we have to make something new.


CONCLUSION (OR SHORT VERSION IF YOU DON´T WANT TO READ ALL THAT STUFF UP THERE)

...Sorry for the rant U.U
Anyway, what I said is, we have classes which can be used as Jack of All trades, why make a job about that ?, and what is worse, why create an unoriginal, overused and really just a mix of other classes ?. I vote to create something original. Right now I haven´t any idea but I´m on it. ^^U

Just think about that, red magic, a third type of magic never seen in other MMORPG whit original gameplay and a real function (no other class would be able to imitate that function).

Thanks for reading.

I'm all for Red magic.. but what would that be.

Absorption magic, enfeebling, Dot's, transformation magic ?

You make a good suggestion but don't follow up with an actual idea, at this point in gaming its almost impossible to come up with something that hasn't been done before.

Ummh, I´m thinking on it. Magic with a very strategic porpuse, it should be able to alter the reality. Teleportation, changing the position of partners, alteration of the enmity, being able to alter the strength and weakness of himself his party and even his enemies. A class which don´t need to fight or heal to be usefull, a class suit for strategy fighting. Red mage will watch every aspect of the battle and use a great variety of spells to change the odds. Making cure regen MP but consume HP when used, use some old spells like relfect and debuffs, changing magical damage for physical. It should have weaks stats and some limitations of course, and most of his spells have a good and bad effect.

A full strategy job, the kind of person who can overcome imposible situations using his mind and his sodiers, partenes and friends.

Red Magic should have a lot of diverse spells with different uses and a bad red mage would kill his party, while a good one will make a 8 men unstoppable army.

This just one idea, I´m still thinking.

Kind of like calculator/mathematician from FFT then ?

I haven´t played FFT (in fact I just started a few days ago so I haven´t the calculator job yet lol) but maybe why not?

Other thing red magic could have is what I liked to call "battlefield alteration spells".

For example, gravity wouldn´t be an attacl, but rather it will create a zone where projectiles are usseles and movement is slow down or right awy imposibble. An anti magic zone spell too will be nice or a "berserker" zone, where player characters lose HP but gain an stat improvement, or a zone wich make all kind of attacks usseless but drain totally the MP and TP of the user, and there are even a lot more posibilities for spells.

The only problem is, that enemies should be remade to give them more skills and differents attacks, so new and different strategy are needed. One hit kill skill wich need the use of Red Magic special uses, long ranged and magical enemies, and even enemies which act like red mages, altering the battle in deifferents ways, being the red mages the only ones who can reverse its effects.

I think the fencer class could work similar to the way DNC did in XI. So fun to play.. just got tired of the animations. glowing enspells, haste move, MP moves, HP moves. really cool combo status effects. RDM spells paralyze, dia, bio, blind, Second job could be DNC or even BLU. I would like to see slow,stop,rewind etc go to time mage/green mage.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Quit meleein' and refresh the mages.

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I got a good chuckle out of this lol

First of all people should need to know what role the Red mage would use: DD, Enhaing, Enfeebling, DD-Enhan, DD-Enfee...

I like the idea of Firon and Elgeron where Red mage should use tp for spells and some unique spells. Putting this together is hard if we consider what everyone wants, a close combat mage, because animation log, role, tp generation... etz.


Red Mage Spells:

- If Enhancing spells: "Berserk" (enhances attack), "YY" (enhances Magic potency), "Fortify" (enhances defense), "Haste" , "En-Fire,Blizzard,Aero,Thunder,Water" (adds elemental dmg to auto-atacks).

- If Enfeebling spells: "Bio", "Dia", "Gravity", "Burn", "Choke", "Shock", "Drown" (No paralyze, poison, silence)...

Usage of TP on Weapon skills:

- Weapons skills that lower elemental resistence.

- Normal Weapons Skills

~ "AAA" (Multi hit low acc.)
~ "Retribution" (deals magic dmg and return MP based on the dmg. Combo AAA: more mp drained)
~ "Soul break" 3000tp (one hit magic dmg that ignores magic defense based on on tp. Combo Retribution: DMG increased based on mp


Etz...


Usage of TP on Red Mage for spells:

-We can use the TP as a way of be able to perfom AoE on spells (Enfeebling, enhancing..).

Let's say we use "XX" ability (I'm bad for names) which have a low countdown (15sec-30sec?) and grants the red mage the effect of AoE to the next spell it uses. However apart of the mp cost the spell would have, the ability would add a TP cost (depends on which spell is used) for the spell to be AoE.

-We can use the TP as a way of be able to enhance the enfeeblings and enhancing magic adding effects.

Something in the lines we have 2 ablities: one for enhancing magic and one for enfeebling (1min recast) that adds additional effect (not much tho).

Berserk: attack + acc
Haste: speed att + store tp
"YY": m.potency + m.acc
"Fortify": defense + hp
Bio: tick dmg + lower attack
Dia: tick dmg + lower defense
Bleed: tick dmg + lower magic defense
Etz..

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With this we would have a Red mage close comba like everyone wants but still been a buffer or debuffer that you would want always in the party. If i had to choose i would give it for weapon a "Rappier".

Edit: Thinking about it and so far you can't have a proper and decent Close combat mage (or hybrid) due one main issue that most people cry as soon as they see those words... "Gear swap". If you don't allow gear swap you will have: a simple DD that cast spells that never lands on target/doens't buff at all or a DD which does a s**ty dmg but cast "strong" enfeebling/enhancing spells .

Note that nowadays you can't change equip while engaged as DD which would make you chose over enfeebling/enhancing or keep disengaging -> change ekip -> cast -> change ekip -> engage (like bards do now). Which would mean that you would almost never being meleeing at all and makes the "close combat mage" meanless.



My two cents. Thanks for your time.

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Originally Posted by Elgeron

What if we give the red mage... red magic?

Why don´t we break the classic old concept of Red Mage third part WHM, third part BLM , another third part WAR and full part inefficent and unoriginal ?

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RDM was anything but inefficient in FFXI. But furthermore, RDM is a third part these things, because that's what Red Mage is. Final Fantasy has an established job system, Red Mage has never varied wildly from its roots in this regard. FFXI was perhaps the biggest departure for the job.

Not to say that innovation is bad, but people expect something specific from a Red Mage, their love and attachment to the job is based around these expectations. Hence this thread, and half the people posting in it.

But last time SE tried to wildly depart from the expected job system... well look what happened.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

And if you think that making it so they can do everyone else's job just as well by rotating a stance, perhaps you want OP rdm. lol

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Do you not understand the concept of diminishing returns? There are other limitations that could be implemented to ensure balance. It's really not OP at all, in fact, unless they can actually replace a key role permanently, which they wouldn't be able to.

They'd essentially be able to replace a healer with a group that only needs that extra healer slot for a certain part of a fight, or almost doesn't need a second healer, giving them an edge on DPS during the rest of the fight. And they'd be able to replace a DPS in a group that's having trouble with heals, but no trouble with dps, etc.

In an "ideal" raid setup, for players who have already mastered content and are just trying to go faster, RDM would if anything, be underpowered, with the possible exception of raid content where 2 WHM is absolutely necessary for part of the raid, but not the rest. In which case, bringing a RDM instead of 1 of the WHM would allow them to DPS the rest of the instance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jinko

This is especially true with a party size of 8, the bigger the party the more roles you can fill so the less need for a hybrid class.

To the person who suggest stances, I kind of like that idea but you shouldn't be able to change stance during combat this will solve some of the issue with players filling all rolls at a switch of a button.

I see no harm in a class that can play all roles, as long as you can't play all roles at once, this is also taking into account gear, materia and stat choices of course.

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Right, because forcing an entire job to drag around 4 sets of unique gear sounds smart. Let's not even discuss itemization of RDM specific gear, or point allotment.

RDM would be more than pointless given this setup. What you're talking about isn't a true hybrid anymore, but a hybrid in the way that Blizzard likes to define the term. A class that can respec to any role.

Why else would RDM be pointless if it could simply respec to fit a role before a fight? We can already do this, we can already change jobs and gear between fights. Why would I bring a RDM if I can just bring someone who has BLM, WAR and DRG leveled?

Unless RDM is better than one of those, in which case, why not just bring 8 RDM?

Having the ability to switch roles in combat, if limited properly, would essentially allow a RDM to smooth over content, by turning one of the party slots into whatever is needed most at the moment. It would never be able to outright replace the main tank, main healer, or primary DPS, but it would be able to replace an off tank or off healer in a group transitioning from clearing to farming, or replace a DPS in a group just learning an instance.

Not that it would be entirely useless for other situations, it would just be outclassed by other jobs that can permanently inhabit a single role. But I'd be willing to pay that price for the versatility expected of RDM.