Does Square intend to address Market botting?

as an update to the banned RMT gil generator that I noticed recently banned. not sure if I can post the name of who it was, but I am sure everyone would recognize it if you sell any gear of the boards for any length of time.

Just a notice, the next version is back, they blew up the mp this morning with over 300 items, using the same selling network since the retainer names are the same. Since they are based in my group, on Brynhildr there is little need to bring that many items to Zalera except for generation of gil for RMT purposes.

So.. back on report they go, see how long it takes to get rid of this one. be nice if they took out and banned the network of sellers too.

As a new player; I actually like the bots. They're the only people using chat which is nice because otherwise I wouldn't have a clue that this was an online game with other players.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

The game has almost reached its demise, I don't see it happening anymore after 7 years, even though I feel they should.

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That could be a summary of your whole post. That statement makes it obvious you don't see any point in any improvements or attempts to combat things that bother the player base. Why even comment about it if you are basically in a "Eh its dying doesn't matter." mentality.

Those of us who are playing and don't see it as 'dying' or dead or end of life want the game to be as good as it can be and if possible to grow and those who play or might join to be able to have good experiences and not have to deal with things like bots wrecking things they'd like to get involved in.

Thanks, Commander_Justitia,

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

As you say they are extremely easy to detect. This happened for 7 years and they still don't think it is necessary to do something. They mentioned in some live letter or event that they don't wanna start a war with the botters, where normal players have to suffer because the anti cheat code gets too complex and influences game performance... But well how much blatant botting can you allow, how many hundreds bots are okay to pass through a mainstory npc during one hour? They start to go on other worldservers than their original home server too, I assume it helps them evade detection.

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I think they made some poor design decisions that have enabled bots. There are other MMO games out there where botting is almost absent. I played Warframe for a year and got pretty high up (rank 25), and I never noticed a bot once. A big part of that comes from how the game is designed.

I'd personally be happy if they restricted some features to greatly eliminate bots. For example, I'd be happy if they removed gil transfers between players. I'd be happy if they removed item transfers as well. I asked my FC about this, and they told me gil transfers are useful for dividing up sales from map loot and for combining money for an FC house. There are solutions to the latter problem, like having an FC bank for FC purchases that you couldn't draw from for non-FC purchases. The elimination of item transfers would preclude potion exchanges for raids, but I think using the marketboard for this purpose would be good enough.

In the end, I believe FFXIV was made for the Japanese market, in which these problems aren't as prevalent, and they view the NA and Europe markets as just gravy. MMOs developed by western companies take botting a lot more seriously.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

I'd personally be happy if they restricted some features to greatly eliminate bots. For example, I'd be happy if they removed gil transfers between players. I'd be happy if they removed item transfers as well. I asked my FC about this, and they told me gil transfers are useful for dividing up sales from map loot and for combining money for an FC house. There are solutions to the latter problem, like having an FC bank for FC purchases that you couldn't draw from for non-FC purchases. The elimination of item transfers would preclude potion exchanges for raids, but I think using the marketboard for this purpose would be good enough.

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I think the first restriction should be anything you get on another world should be bound, plain and simple. if I go to another world, I am going there to buy things for me I would say 100% of the time, either materials or gear. I realize not everyone does that of course, sometimes you are getting it for a friend or something. maybe....

being about to bring over hundreds of items is for no other purpose than gil generation, and suspect that a majority of that gil goes towards RMT selling

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Originally Posted by NamidaTekika

That could be a summary of your whole post. That statement makes it obvious you don't see any point in any improvements or attempts to combat things

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I actually do see a point, like I recommend it at the end of the quoted sentence too.
I don't see it happening anymore because of what our game developer did in the past about it, like stopping bots to freely teleport/speedhack around the open world map would be a start.

And how TheLoveJenovan pointed it out, it seems to be less an issue on JP servers. And even if their numbers aren't as high as EU/NA, they are still the most hardcore/dedicated players on JP and the companies home market..

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

I actually do see a point, like I recommend it at the end of the quoted sentence too.
I don't see it happening anymore because of what our game developer did in the past about it, like stopping bots to freely teleport/speedhack around the open world map would be a start.

And how TheLoveJenovan pointed it out, it seems to be less an issue on JP servers. And even if their numbers aren't as high as EU/NA, they are still the most hardcore/dedicated players on JP and the companies home market..

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my theory is because the developer play there, so would be more likely to see it as an issue there. I feel the NA team people are not communicating how much of an issue it is becoming here.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

At this point the best they could do is allow botting. They don't have the tools to get cheater/botter and don't wanna get into an arms race with them, because that doesn't generate any money. They should really have a look at how other games make a GM visit a pleasant experience, e.g. when a bug occurs.

@Muutaras The GM won't invest as much time and effort to come to conclusions like you do. It is detrimental anyway because as a GM you would be on a constant witchhunt, if you would work like that. If you accept outside evidence you also risk getting faked information from players that want to see another player banned, as happened in the past. The majority of the cases GM have to deal with include harassment and griefing. And the bans we see are for RMT advertisment mostly from free trial accounts.
By the time a GM sees your report and checks & acts on it, the Restoration rewards will probably be out yet.

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When working as a GM, you need to conduct your tests and not refer to the words of the players. Therefore, a witch hunt is inappropriate here. I am an ordinary player who will spend well 30 minutes or an hour to observe the behavior. And not spend several hours flying in invisibility, kicking and teleporting bots to see his reaction to my actions.

And the permission of bots kills the meaning of the game, crafting professions, it can immediately offer the SE to sell ready-made clothes for any profession at any level.
You can fight bots, it would be necessary to have a strong one in this and strength (well, as well as the human factor, and interest in the case, and not wiping your a** for money). In AA on Euro very well GM interact with players, and if you often help in search of bots. You are given the function of marking a player so that the GM can see this player in the world and observe his behavior. If you start to use this function badly, you will simply be banned.

There is an argument to be made that players would abuse the system and report people they dont like etc, well, thats where a human GM comes into play and has to do some basic investigating. So yes, the system is likely going to try and be abused.

but is the system not already being abused by cheaters? and we are not talking about silent reports against someone not liked or that they are picking on, we are talking about blatant in your face cheaters that are abusing the system and virtually EVERYONE knows it. I believe that harms the game and the community far more than a bully, or a group of them, making false reports

no one is asking for complete elimination (tho that would be awesome lol) but a real response to a real problem would be a good start. and a vague report on numbers isnt cutting it, because they should be broken down by area, hell, I would love to see BY SERVER before this vague banning report has any meaning to people watching these things daily

Honestly with GM tools it would be almost brainlessly easy to identify many of the worst offenders. A simple online time report, then start going and observe the longest online times for about 5-10 minutes and you could quickly tell if they are a bot.

That would probably axe a large percentage of them quickly enough. Market ones you could probably just go and look at online vs what zone they've been in the whole time. I've yet to know a REAL person who would sit in one zone for all of their online time. To nuke gathering bots, just head over to Duskbloom spawn and/or Ephemeral node for Levin mint. Watch the bots SWARM. Pick a few to follow and check online times...within like 2 hours you could scythe through the bot population and destroy many of these long standing gil farmers.

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Originally Posted by NamidaTekika

Honestly with GM tools it would be almost brainlessly easy to identify many of the worst offenders. A simple online time report, then start going and observe the longest online times for about 5-10 minutes and you could quickly tell if they are a bot.

That would probably axe a large percentage of them quickly enough. Market ones you could probably just go and look at online vs what zone they've been in the whole time. I've yet to know a REAL person who would sit in one zone for all of their online time. To nuke gathering bots, just head over to Duskbloom spawn and/or Ephemeral node for Levin mint. Watch the bots SWARM. Pick a few to follow and check online times...within like 2 hours you could scythe through the bot population and destroy many of these long standing gil farmers.

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I think thats what makes their (SE's) inaction and the long time bots continued existence so perplexing. they have all the tools, it doesnt require new code to be written to automate the process, and for the bot makers to figure out a way around, it just requires a person/team to look into them.

That's too bad the mods pulled the nice, detailed post naming a bot. Arguably, a bot isn't a playing character but rather a non-playing character (NPC), which is not capable of being harassed.

whats worse is, now we know they monitor this.... and I doubt any word of this has reached anyone that can make a difference

Hey Kes13a, I just tried switching data centers to see if I could find a server with a better bot situation. I picked Crystal and Zalera because they were less congested. It didn't strike me that that's your server. I'm guessing, from your contributions on this thread, that it has a bad marketplace bot problem too ;)

I've spent only a few minutes on there, and I think I've found at least 2.

I guess you can't escape the problem, even with server switches. I'll take a look at the other servers on Crystal, but I suspect they're not much better. In the end, I'll probably just let my sub lapse until/if something is done about bots.

ps: I did have some success pushing bots out of markets on Jenova by blocking bot sales with prices just under their price floors. I estimate that I was costing the bot about 1-1.5M a day in blocked sales, and I got the bot to move out of about 8 markets in 2 weeks.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

Hey Kes13a, I just tried switching data centers to see if I could find a server with a better bot situation. I picked Crystal and Zalera because they were less congested. It didn't strike me that that's your server. I'm guessing, from your contributions on this thread, that it has a bad marketplace bot problem too ;)

I've spent only a few minutes on there, and I think I've found at least 2.

I guess you can't escape the problem, even with server switches. I'll take a look at the other servers on Crystal, but I suspect they're not much better. In the end, I'll probably just let my sub lapse until/if something is done about bots.

ps: I did have some success pushing bots out of markets on Jenova by blocking bot sales with prices just under their price floors. I estimate that I was costing the bot about 1-1.5M a day in blocked sales, and I got the bot to move out of about 8 markets in 2 weeks.

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overall depends on how you market I guess.

welcome to Zalera lol

there are two for sure, 2 or 3 I have strong suspicions on, then the usual batch of importers and RMT posters that put up batches at 1/2 value and leave them at that price so, really... nothing you havent see previously

The one thing I have noticed is in the last 3 weeks or so the floors have dropped considerably. that used to be a reliable option here as well, but they have brought them down from about 2 x cost to to just over what I calculate cost to be now.

did get a good deal on some things last week though, obviously had been an update or something, but put a run of things up for the default selling price >.> I felt bad buying it all up.. NOT. I got 6 or 7 Aesthete pieces for about 9k total. bad day for some cheater lol

ps. I know there are a few servers that I do not often see things from on Crystal, not sure if that means they have fewer bots or just not many things get imported over

Your server is in really bad shape. It looks like a few players have also started using bots to compete with RMT market bots. I started seeing this on Jenova as well, when players would undercut bots 20-30 times over a 24 hour period.

You know the problem is bad when real players have to use bots to compete with RMT bots.

In any case, if I see some of your high-end crafting stuff, I'll make sure to buy those. I still need the Aesthete stuff.

The immediate action of removing a post naming a bot and the lack of action in dealing with them tells a lot about SE's priorities and exactly proves my point in my deleted post that they actually promote botting.. after all bots are loyal paying customers too so they have to toss their salads and we can all go to hell
SE, their service desk and special douchebag force are a bunch of C U Next Tuesdays.

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post: the FC of that cockroach has 9 characters.. since you can have a maximum of 8 that means that there is a backup character in that FC who can pick up all the Gil that they have been botting and hoarding for the past few months from the company chest which I suspect they keep all their gil in..
So even if the good for nothing dipshits take an action and terminate the account, the cheater will keep all the gil and pick up from where they left with the second account, and they can level up their crafting job in a matter of a week since its so easy now.

They have to have two service accounts so the crafter can trade with or mail the mules. It's one service account with a single omnicrafter and another with 8 mule alts. They have the same setup on every world on Chaos.

The people who remove posts that make accusations and name names on the forums (which is actually a good policy) are not the same people who take action against bots. Deleting your post doesn't promote botting. Not doing anything about bots promotes botting.

I have no idea why they don't do anything about them, but everyone knows who they are and they've been reported loads, so at this point I'm just assuming they're never going to do anything about them, so it's pretty much just live with them or quit at this point. Which is pretty frustrating.

Thanks Rurouni_Auron. I noticed that in your original post, and that hadn't occurred to me. It makes sense.

So I visited a few other servers on the Crystal Datacenter, and I can pinpoint the market bots within 30 seconds on each. These bots all behave so similarly that I suspect it's one guy or one company running all of them on all servers.

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Originally Posted by TheLoveJenovan

Your server is in really bad shape. It looks like a few players have also started using bots to compete with RMT market bots. I started seeing this on Jenova as well, when players would undercut bots 20-30 times over a 24 hour period.

You know the problem is bad when real players have to use bots to compete with RMT bots.

In any case, if I see some of your high-end crafting stuff, I'll make sure to buy those. I still need the Aesthete stuff.

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I can make whatever you like if you want ^^

rather it go to someone worthwhile anyway lol

and yeah, it is rather bad. I often wonder why I even resist being a bot, except, I loathe cheaters, and more of an accomplishment if I can do it myself

PS. Feel free to send me a message in game and I can make things for you, I am generally on during the day/night

One: You do not need to trade with the mules. You simply put the items in the company box and they can pick them up from there
Two: No one said anything about people.. if anything those are poor bastards. It is about their policies, processes and procedures which are all shit and prevents them from acting quickly
Three: My strategy with that dipshit is simple but frustrating.. figure out his breaking point, post the item at it with his price + 1 gil, let him take the shitty sale and up your price again
You may sell an item or two at a low price (never at a loss because their breaking point is almost the cost to make + around 10,000 gil)
It has been working well and is somewhat satisfying but it is very exhausting and time consuming

This thread has become depressing. It would be nice to inject some positivity in this thread.

I would like to take this opportunity to celebrate FCs that have mastered the marketplace, and I would like to take this opportunity to complement them. In order to avoid violating the TOS and forum guidelines, I'll just list the FC names and their impressive server rankings so that we can all celebrate their achievements.

I’ll rank these by their company ranking on the server.

1. Alpha Knights [Balmung] — they’re ranked 2nd for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...9148295235275/)
2. Free Folk [Jenova] — they're ranked 5th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...1536389089046/)
3. Malazan [Goblin] — they’re ranked 6th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...1773411659411/)
4. Simps United [Malboro] — they’re ranked 6th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...7348481549738/)
5. Ballers [Zalera] — they're ranked 7th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...2273877462814/)
6. Heavenswrath [Mateus] — they’re ranked 8th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...9323924029532/)
7. Danktown [Brynhildr] — they’re ranked 11th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...7111458975017/)
8. SeeDs of Shinra [Coeurl] — they’re ranked 23rd on the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...6610993167589/)

Good job and congratulations!

9. Anonymous Neets [Cerberus] - They're the number 1 C U Next Tuesdays on the server and the 23rd on the company ranking list (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...1035923326289/)
I hope you all get the Corona Virus

Ballers is indeed an impressive FC. it must be a lot of work for one mostly afk leader held captive in an apartment, and 8 members below 30 who stand at bells all day to post such an impressive standing.

It makes me so proud they are on my server.

It's kind of silly that they aren't more active about getting rid of the bots when the FC rankings effectively make it impossible for them to hide their excessive activity (Unless they're one of the odd few aren't in a FC).

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's kind of silly that they aren't more active about getting rid of the bots when the FC rankings effectively make it impossible for them to hide their excessive activity (Unless they're one of the odd few aren't in a FC).

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But at least the FC bots make themselves easier to identify through activity. It's a place to start.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

But at least the FC bots make themselves easier to identify through activity. It's a place to start.

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unfortunately they may identify them but they do nothing about them. They cannot say "we are observing to get information about how they are doing it" thats nice and all, but nice isnt going to make the people who actually put in the time and effort feel any better about these bots continuing to exist

As expected the guy who posted names got banned, the irony :D

Yea I am the definitely the bad guy here and I deserved to be banned.. therefore; I will stop posting anything here or anywhere since it has not been contributing to anything but my own frustration and anger.
Good luck to you all selling items in this bot-infested game and this bot-promoting game, support and forum.
I will stick to selling Eurekan items since those bots cannot farm them (for now) and SE can stick to eating my black lalafel ass.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

But at least the FC bots make themselves easier to identify through activity. It's a place to start.

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You do not need to identify shit..

All you need to do is find a worthy item (Check Shinryu's Gunblade and Chakarms for example) and see if there's someone undercutting the price by 1 Gil.
Check their profile and company of that character: If it is a company of 9 characters, 1 main omnicrafter with 1 LV80 DoM or DoW job and 8 mules and no company estate then BINGO you found the shit.

Took me less than 10 minutes to find all those botting companies on each server of Chaos.

Evidently; you don't need to be smart to do all this, which tells a lot about the intelligence and IQ levels of SE support and special douchebag team.

Identifying bots is easier than that. They could start by polling their databases for accounts that have been active (i.e. not AFK) for more than 36 hours. This is so easy to do--it would literally take someone 5-10 minutes to write and execute the SQL query script--that it leads me to believe that SE truly doesn't care about the problem.

I've been sending back-and-forths with SE Customer Support, and it appears that they've outsourced this service to act as a "firewall" from their users. My original query was about getting a World Transfer credit after transferring to a new server inundated with market bots.

Message 1

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We apologize for the inconvenience. Unfortunately, that service is not an available option. Although this service is not available, we will take this information and forward it as feedback to the appropriate department. While we cannot guarantee implementation, we would like to assure you that it will be reviewed by the appropriate party.

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I’d otherwise be happy to pay for further transfers, but since the reason I am transferring is because Square Enix is not enforcing it’s TOS with bots, I’d like to at least transfer to a server in which there aren’t flagrant violations of the TOS. This wasn’t the case for my old server (Jenova) or the server I’ve transferred to (Zalera), which is why I’d like to try the Diablos server.

Ideally, it would be best if Square Enix just enforced its TOS. However, after months of reports in-game and reports to the Special Task Force, nothing has been done about these bots.

If you’d like more detailed information on this problem, I have participated actively on a thread.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...Market-botting

I even spent about 10 minutes identifying all of the market botting rings on the Crystal data center. These rings are on nearly every server, they almost all have top-10 Free Company standings for their respective server, they appear to be tied to RMT, and they have basically ruined the marketplace for legitimate players.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5431506

Message 2

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Greetings,

We appreciate you bringing this to our attention. It will be forwarded to the appropriate party. Thank you for taking the time to contact us today and we look forward to your opinions of our upcoming titles.

Thank you,
Paz

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Frankly, there’s tons of content for new players and seasoned players, like myself. For the continued engagement of seasoned players, like me, we’re just looking for a fair game to play.

At this point, I’m not looking forward to Square Enix’s upcoming titles; I just want Square Enix to fix the product they’re already selling. This has been codified in the Terms of Service (TOS), but the TOS is not enforced by Square Enix. It’s like watching a game of football with no rules. At some point, there’s no point in engaging in a game when anything is allowed. For FFXIV, this means that bots are *allowed* to run rampant from 6 months to many years. They even have the top rankings for Free Companies and Ishgard rankings in the game.

Please fix the game with its pervasive and flagrant cheating before creating new content. We, as a community, have even done the legwork in identifying the most egregious bots. We’re just asking you to clean up your game.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5431506


Message 3

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We appreciate your feedback. We apologize that the product/service you are referring to does not meet your expectations. Your feedback will be forwarded to the appropriate party. Thank you for taking the time to contact us today.

Thank you,
Jon

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The product/service I am referring (Final Fantasy XIV) doesn’t even meet Square Enix’s expectations. As I’ve stated, they have outlined a Terms of Service for play, which prohibits bots, but they do not enforce penalties on bots.

I hope Square Enix can deliver a product/service that at least meets their own expectations.

this reminds me of Raiders of the Lost Ark

Maj. Eaton : We have top men working on it right now.

Indiana : Who?

Maj. Eaton : Top... men.

Including Nazi face melting

Had a glance at the Zodiark MB and it's the same thing. The main sellers come from a few 6-9 person FC's (one is rank 8 on the server), consisting of a single crafter or two (always with 1 lv80 DoW class, maxed DoH/L and only the story minion/mounts) and a set of low level retainer classes using jobs that start in Limsa for easy MB access. One of them originates from Lich, so they use trades to retainer alts on multiple worlds to cover the entire data centre. It's rampant and quite a few Neo-Ishgard pieces are below material price.

This first started happening on a large scale around 4.5 onwards, when endgame gear crafting was made much easier and cross world was implemented. Both these changes created a bot heaven, simple crafts, easy to obtain mats and the entire data centre as your market. It's a shame.

1. I reported a phishing attempt yesterday, and support replied within 10 minutes. At least they take phishing seriously. (In case you're wondering, I reported a user that sent a tell asking to comment on the removal of some content).

2. I've updated my list of FCs that dominate the markets. I found all of the FCs on the crystal datacenter. Congratulations!

Crystal

1. Alpha Knights [Balmung] — they’re ranked 2nd for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...9148295235275/)
2. Malazan [Goblin] — they’re ranked 6th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...1773411659411/)
3. Simps United [Malboro] — they’re ranked 6th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...7348481549738/)
4. Ballers [Zalera] — they're ranked 7th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...2273877462814/)
5. Heavenswrath [Mateus] — they’re ranked 8th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...9323924029532/)
6. Danktown [Brynhildr] — they’re ranked 11th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...7111458975017/)
7. SeeDs of Shinra [Coeurl] — they’re ranked 23rd on the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...6610993167589/)
8. bro [Diabolos] -- they're ranked 80th on the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...7761132928999/)

Aether

1. Free Folk [Jenova] — they're ranked 5th for the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...1536389089046/)

Chaos

1. Anonymous Neets [Cerberus] -- they're ranked 23rd on the whole server! (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...727.1588716301)

A new person on the Chaos, Moogle server, but here is another problem, he sells goods on all the Chaos servers, he is everywhere..absolutely.

Guild ArtsAndCrafts (Moogle).

Hi Aniona, thanks for the post!

Market bots, and bots in general, are a pretty pervasive problem. There are the FC bots we've been discussing as well as "lone-ranger" bots like the one you describe. On the Crystal Server, I've found at least one of these "lone ranger" bots that sell items on multiple servers. I bet your server also has the FC bots like the ones we've been discussing as well.

Altogether, after spending a lot of time on a few servers, I've found that each server has a minimum of 4-6 market bots, which I would characterize as follows:

1. 1-2 FC bots. Each server has at least one FC with one crafter and about 8-9 dummy accounts for RMT trading. These FCs are typically in the top 20 ranking for the server. I suspect that these FCs are all run by the same RMT company (like 4000GOLD) or RMT person, and from what I've seen, they've contaminated all servers and datacenters in the US and Europe.

2. 1-2 Lone-ranger bots. These are bots often don't participate in an FC. They spread their goods to all servers in a datacenter and drop prices, like the FC bots, within tens of minutes on a 24/7 basis. I found at least one of these on each of the Aether and Crystal datacenters. I suspect this is a different RMT company using a different way to exploit the market.

3. 3-4 Player bots. Many players have realized that the only way to compete with market bots is to run their own bots. These player bot accounts will play the game during normal hours then they'll go into market bot mode to undercut competitors within tens of minutes. It's not unusual to see these player bots in price wars with the other bots by taking turns undercutting 20-40 times per day. The number of these is a bit difficult to identify, but if you spend a day in a market, you'll notice them.

This is not to mention the DOL bots that everyone has seen and identified. In the level 80 zones, it's pretty common and typical to see 3-6 or more bots stacked on top of each-other, doing the exact same script in mining ephemeral nodes.

Quality job SE.