Petition: Don't implement Content Finder!

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Originally Posted by StateAlchemist

Maybe you can wrap YOUR shriveled pea brain around this: What's stopping me from selecting that I speak EN, JP, FR, etc...? Becuase that is what the search goes by: What each individual CLAIMS as languages they speak. Just because you use search for say EN players, doesn't mean they all speak EN. They may only think they know enough to get by.

In FFXI I flagged myself as EN/JP for search because it helped me get parties during JP peak hours. I didn't speak a lick of JP. But if that flag wasn't up I wouldn't have gotten those invites.

And furthermore: some content requires one person to have multiple classes/jobs. The search function isn't that good.

Next time why don't you think before you type. maybe you won't make yourself look like an idiot when try to talk down to someone who already thought three steps ahead of you.

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Watchout everyone StateAlchemist is starting to get all E-tough on people, better watch out what yall say!!!!
Bet you just got done working out at the E-gym, all pumped up and aggressive from you E-roids..

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Originally Posted by Jeffdogg

Watchout everyone StateAlchemist is starting to get all E-tough on people, better watch out what yall say!!!!
Bet you just got done working out at the E-gym, all pumped up and aggressive from you E-roids..

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lol? Your cool bro.

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Originally Posted by Jeffdogg

Watchout everyone StateAlchemist is starting to get all E-tough on people, better watch out what yall say!!!!
Bet you just got done working out at the E-gym, all pumped up and aggressive from you E-roids..

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No, he's just getting all E-stupid and not thinking any of his posts through.

seriously, rokien. do you even play this game?

This topic made me cry.
Why should we have less options? Damn, people can be stupid.

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Originally Posted by Sagagemini

This topic made me cry.
Why should we have less options? Damn, people can be stupid.

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That's a typical Rokien topic.

There is a significant reasonable concern that this feature will result in people doing nothing but stand around town. It has happened in every game that has ever implemented this feature. Content finders are also in some respect community killers. They make it to easy to alienate others because you can instant have a new group without any concern for the people around you. I am not concerned with this so much as the people never leaving town.

I think we should have a content finder. I think it should find an appropriate combination of class and stick them in a party. Then you should have 2-5 mins to make your way to the content you plan to do.

Content Finders are a wonderful way to promote content accessibility to casual players, but we should not sacrifice our world for the sake of any single group of players.

let me tell u guys whats really going to happen if content finder gets introduced
if content finder is used a lot
lazy is going to take over, its going to happen, don't say it wont because it will. everything, expect for a few high lvl dungeons where a random pt wont do, will be used for it. need a party fast? content finder. Need to do an old quest done? Content finder. Need to get AF gear? need to get past a specific point in a story mission? Content finder. Running DD toto-rak etc? content finder it.

the only quests people wont use it for would be something like NM hunting stuff, and thats 100% the truth.
the above helps the low lvl players catch up and running people though story missions will not be necessary anymore which is a good thing and a bad thing

anyone else see the problem this will do to the server communities?
i wouldn't have a single reason to talk to anyone from my server for 90% of the game, all i gotta do is wait in town till everything gets sorted out by the server software.

true it helps if i leave ff14 for a couple months and need to get back on track, but in the long run people will rely to much on it and it will hurt and not help.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

There is a significant reasonable concern that this feature will result in people doing nothing but stand around town. It has happened in every game that has ever implemented this feature.

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and this concern is ass-backwards logic. people already stand around in ul'dah all damn day because if they leave they won't see party/primal/dungeon/AF shouts.

furthermore, i played WoW before and after implementation of content finder. people did their dailies and farming and whatever either way, but if anything content finder freed people up to go out and do whatever random crap they wanted to do at any time because they could simultaneously que up while questing/farming/whatever

and how does it kill a community? people still raid primarily with guilds/friends. it also makes it easier for people who don't have a guild or friends that can help them with raid content to find pick up groups to get it done.

(and besides- this game already has a pretty godawful community, so...)

i don't follow your reasoning whatsoever.

Fusional is right

id like them to improve PT search functions first b4 they start adding in other stuff though.
not enough options and not enough people use it

hell if u can do all your shouting and stuff in a global "search" chat that you can turn on or off, as long as people don't abuse the shit out of it by implementing some kinda timer id rather have that.

but improved search functions would be a huge step

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Originally Posted by Jeffdogg

Watchout everyone StateAlchemist is starting to get all E-tough on people, better watch out what yall say!!!!
Bet you just got done working out at the E-gym, all pumped up and aggressive from you E-roids..

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http://api.ning.com/files/sYNtoU4hu6..._quarterly.jpg

Probably just got his latest issue in the mail.

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Originally Posted by Cross

I dislike the idea of content-finder aswell.
The counter "dont use it if you don't like it" doesn't work that easily...
If all ppl using this system you dont have another choice but to use it.

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It does work. Find a group to play with on your own server. I have a good LS, I will not be using the content finder. My life is no worse for its existence. It is an option, you have a choice. Find a solution to your problem instead of removing an option.

Content finder is not a feature you have to use. If you want to play with people on your server then find a strong shell and community to do content with rather than just blow in the breeze expecting random pug groups.

However, trying to deny a feature that would allow the people who don't care to be able to get groups on a whim when they may not have a large amount of time to look for a server-specific group is just another example of how self-absorbed so much of this community can be.

Don't like the feature? Don't use it. I however have seen how useful this type of system can be and have had just as much fun meeting people in the content finder, even if I were to never see them again. I mean do you not like to go outside, ride a bus, etc, because most people you meet you will never see again? Sure you could exchange e-mails with a real life person but how often do you REALLY do that? Yet running into random people and experiencing even a moment of their personality, kindness, etc, can be an enjoyable experience.

Quit being close-minded.

I hate posting in this thread, but I feel obligated to in order to show my support for the system...

I really can't wait for content finder. I hope it auto-groups parties forcing 1 of each job (+1WHM?) and locking everyone on it. Would be so much more fun than doing a BLM heavy group.

Having played some games with it, I can attest that it just makes things more accessible, and I really can't see how this ruins the game for anyone. Typically these things will let you group with your current party and just add randoms from any server, in any zone. Do you actually like that you have to waste so much time just to find that 8th person? Meanwhile on another server, someone is wanting to do the same fight but there's no group looking for members. There is absolutely no drawbacks to this system at all, especially considering the lower subscription rate at this point in time. If you want anyone else to start playing this game, how about not restricting them in stupid ways?

This is simply an improvement over shout groups, and would actually do a great deal to reduce shout spamming in Whiteg Ul'dah.

Also, maybe some instanced dungeons for each level range, easy/fun/short duration party for any level through content finder.

As for all these "If you don't like it, don't use it." That argument doesn't really hold water. Who cares, though. If you don't like it and want to play with people on the same server, go back to FFXI. This type of grouping has been improved upon and they're trying to add the improved method to this game so that it has a hope to succeed. If you don't like it, shout for 5 minutes and then use it. This way you get whoever from your server wants to do it and thats great, but you're not bogged down by having to find a full 8 for it.

Welcome to the internet; people expect instant results and restricting people needlessly when there's a way to provide instant grouping in this scenario is simply beyond stupid.

Content finder would be the best addition to this game since launch when it comes to UI and playing with other people.

If you don't like it, don't use it.

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Originally Posted by fusional

(and besides- this game already has a pretty godawful community, so...)

i don't follow your reasoning whatsoever.

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Maybe on Rabanstre Durandal.

Community over here is pretty great.

Selbina->Ridill has one of the best communities I've found on an MMO since my XI days when I was on the single worst server FFXI had. But then Selbina/Ridill is the only server that is named specifically for FFXI in any MMO I've played which is probably why. It really makes a difference playing with a majority of people who share your taste in MMO's.

From the horror stories I've heard about some of the other FFXIV servers I doubt I'd use a content finder to play with them (though I'm sure they all have their share of good people too). Even though this goes against what I personally like in MMO's (building communities etc.), I'd be fine with them adding it for instanced content for those who struggle to socialize in-game.

I do think though that a lot of people here won't use it for fear of a certain type of player that has become associated with this type of thing in games like WoW, and that will just lead to the content finder being overcrowded with them.

You are backwards thats all I have to say

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Stop.

Making.

Topics.

Holy.

F**king.

S**t.

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I second that.

the dumpes post i ever read so i give you a cookie....now on to something worth reading

I made this post the other day regarding easy ways to fix issues with a "content finder" - simple solution. Allow players to give feedback on other players, vote up, or vote down, more/less likely to get paired up with them in the future.
Set a new loot system for content found games, where as you pay you earn credits, and use those to bid on drops after the event.

These are just two simple ideas, and I'm sure their are a hundred more. :)

I'm all for this for instanced, dungeons, PvP, etc. :)

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

I made this post the other day regarding easy ways to fix issues with a "content finder" - simple solution. Allow players to give feedback on other players, vote up, or vote down, more/less likely to get paired up with them in the future.
Set a new loot system for content found games, where as you pay you earn credits, and use those to bid on drops after the event.

These are just two simple ideas, and I'm sure their are a hundred more. :)

I'm all for this for instanced, dungeons, PvP, etc. :)

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I have some better solution that are not so complicated and require a lot less dedication to use properly.

When you leave, you can't re-use it for 20 minutes.

When you get booted, you can't re-use it for 40 minutes.

You can only boot twice per group, and it requires 7/7 (or 3/3) votes to pass.

Bonus exp, seals, lower res sickness and lower raise timer given for parties that are formed before using the content finder, per party member (numbers to be tuned, but 2% bonus per member sounds good).

That way people must carefully choose who to boot and it's harder to abuse, it makes people want to play better and not be jerks, and it makes people want to pay more attention to their local community.

I made a post about this back in November, and rather than make a new post, I'll just copy it.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

This comes from the perspective of extensive experience in the WoW LFG.

Pros:
-allows people to find a group very easily and quickly
-makes it easier for low levels

These are admittingly good things. Making a party within your guild can be very tough, with people constantly on different schedules.

Cons:
-easy for people to act however they want because of anonymity
-breaks down server community
-breaks down common courtesy
-breaks down use of the "world"
-forces the idea of set roles and set ways to play (tank, healer, etc.)
-easy for people to take advantage of others (4 people que in with you, do almost the whole dungeon, and then drop you to bring in their friend so he can get the credit. Also ninja loot, etc, etc).

I consider LFGs to kinda be like mmo welfare. If you want quality play, you really need to find your own group. Otherwise, it's just a gamble on what you will end up with. If it didn't affect the rest of the community, I wouldn't be too concerned about it, but the truth is it does. And this is coming from someone that would benefit from it.

A typical random in WoW goes like this: You cue in, and quickly try to orientate yourself on where you are and who you are playing with. If you are lucky, the tank grunts to see if everyone is ready. However, usually he just takes off and half the DPS or more follows. We run through the dungeon at a breakneck pace. There is no chance for anyone, much less someone new, to get a chance to take in their surroundings (in the timed dungeons we have here, this might not be a bad thing though).

If someone gets a chance, and is brave (because people new at things typically aren't), they might pipe up and say they are new and need help. This might get them some patience from the others, or it might get them kicked. You must be very careful to do what your role requires. If you don't play like everyone thinks you should, you might get kicked. If your dps isn't high enough, you can't take every monster in the room as tank, or you can't heal entire health bars in one shot, you might get kicked. If they don't like your gear, you might get kicked (I'm leary of addons for these reasons as well). I have witnessed examples of all of these, usually without a single bit of warning to the kickee.

If we make it through to the end (I've been a part of more failed starts than I care to remember), and if there isn't a fight over ninja looting or some such, then everyone leaves. They usually do not say goodbye. If anyone does actually say anything through the whole thing, it's usually very rude, if not downright vulgar. Of course, it's not like this every time, but the higher level you get, the worse it gets.

This attitude I described, eventually does leak into the game. WoW notoriously has one of the worst communities of mmo gaming. Is it directly because of the LFG? No. But does it feed it? Yes. After getting done with one dungeon, people immediately que up for another, like running back in line for a roller coaster. It is completely unnecessary to interact with a single person, or step outside a single city, to make it through the game.

If SE doesn't want to see this kind of thing plaguing their game, they will need to come up with ways to counteract it. I think there is a such thing as being too convenient. At the very least, I think a blacklist is needed. I'd even like to see the opposite, a "green list" for people you enjoyed playing with, so that if you both que up again, you would get joined up in the same group. I also think maybe there should be a lockout after successfully completing a dungeon, or a limit on how many randoms you can do in one day perhaps. This would cause people to need to actually do other things, and would be healthier for the game environment overall, I think. The aid of the finder would be there for people needing it, but it would cut down on the abuse of it, plus help keep people from completing content too quickly, which is a growing problem in mmos.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Maybe on Rabanstre Durandal.

Community over here is pretty great.

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i'm basing our community sucking on these forums and how much people will find an excuse to cry over absolutely any/every tiny little thing, not my own server

Hope you don't mind me breaking down your post, but there are a lot of misconceptions about content finder and WOW's dungeon finder that I have to dispel. Omitting things that I agree with.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

Cons:
-easy for people to act however they want because of anonymity

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Not as often as you think. The kick and leave penalties for the WOW dungeon finder makes people want to cooperate, or be unable to use the tool for 40+ minutes.

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-breaks down server community
-breaks down common courtesy

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Anecdotal, but this was not my experience. People were more willing to group with same-server people, and I saw more LFG shouts in WOW after dungeon finder than before. The minor stat boosts that you received as a same-server group made people want to stick with their community.

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-forces the idea of set roles and set ways to play (tank, healer, etc.)

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This is not something that the content finder does, it is something that has already happened before it was implemented. All of WOW's specs had a pre-defined role that they could not break out of. FFXIV's classes are the same. GLA and MRD are tanks, LNC, ARC, THM are DD, etc. These roles do not have a lot of wiggle room in a party setting as is.

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-easy for people to take advantage of others (4 people que in with you, do almost the whole dungeon, and then drop you to bring in their friend so he can get the credit. Also ninja loot, etc, etc).

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Totally not possible anymore with WOW's current iteration of dungeon finder. You can only kick ONCE per run, and main spec get a roll for their gear before off spec. There is no such thing as ninja looting anymore.

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I consider LFGs to kinda be like mmo welfare. If you want quality play, you really need to find your own group. Otherwise, it's just a gamble on what you will end up with. If it didn't affect the rest of the community, I wouldn't be too concerned about it, but the truth is it does. And this is coming from someone that would benefit from it.

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You take the same chances of running into morons when you do traditional grouping. You should take into consideration WOW's character model, where you can get a character to level 80/85 and dungeon-ready within a week. That is why the community is bad, why you run into a lot of poor players, and why there are so many problems with grouping outside of a guild.

In FFXI and FFXIV, when you add a player to your friends list or join a linkshell, those players are for all intents and purposes permanent.

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A typical random in WoW goes like this: You cue in, and quickly try to orientate yourself on where you are and who you are playing with. If you are lucky, the tank grunts to see if everyone is ready. However, usually he just takes off and half the DPS or more follows.

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In entry-level dungeons, agreed. In the hard ones and heroics, does not happen.

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If someone gets a chance, and is brave (because people new at things typically aren't), they might pipe up and say they are new and need help. This might get them some patience from the others, or it might get them kicked.

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In two years of using the dungeon finder, scouring the forums, and talking with friends, I have seen less than 20 incidents like this. That number is minuscule when you take into consideration the hundreds of thousands of dungeon runs that are made via the dungeon finder, and is much lower than the number of inexperienced-yet-friendly people who get booted out of traditionally assembled groups. More people get booted out of pre-made PVP and raid groups in WOW because of inexperienced, than they do out of random groups made via dungeon finder.

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You must be very careful to do what your role requires. If you don't play like everyone thinks you should, you might get kicked. If your dps isn't high enough, you can't take every monster in the room as tank, or you can't heal entire health bars in one shot, you might get kicked. If they don't like your gear, you might get kicked (I'm leary of addons for these reasons as well). I have witnessed examples of all of these, usually without a single bit of warning to the kickee.

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Again, this is absolutely no different than groups assembled by traditional methods. These things are happening now, happened in WOW before dungeon finder, and happened in FFXI. This is the nature of MMOs. It's not a problem that dungeon finder introduced or exacerbated.


Everything else you say, I agree with. Black lists, re-use timers if you get booted, only one kick allowed per run, etc. Throwing in a content finder with no limitations or protections against douchebaggery is a very bad idea, but you can add these limitations and protections with a little work and you can make it into an amazing tool for everyone.

Good to see you back Wolfie. Missed you.^^

If WoW has taken measures to make the LFG better social-wise, that's great. I haven't played WoW since the start of Cata, and wouldn't know about recent changes. I was merely describing what can and did happen.

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In entry-level dungeons, agreed. In the hard ones and heroics, does not happen.

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Isn't that where it's the most important? Entry level is where people learn to play the game, and are introduced to the community, for better or for worse.

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In two years of using the dungeon finder, scouring the forums, and talking with friends, I have seen less than 20 incidents like this. That number is minuscule when you take into consideration the hundreds of thousands of dungeon runs that are made via the dungeon finder, and is much lower than the number of inexperienced-yet-friendly people who get booted out of traditionally assembled groups.

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Perhaps because you spent more time in the endgame groups, whereas I spent more of mine in the regular dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

Isn't that where it's the most important? Entry level is where people learn to play the game, and are introduced to the community, for better or for worse.

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I think it's arguable. Level up dungeons in WOW aren't important or hard, but are acessible enough for most players to get a basic understanding of how to group, what a tank, DD, or healer role is, and how dungeon etiquette is.

Anecdotal evidence again, but I got 3 friends on board with WOW at the start of BC. Two had their first dungeon at level 60, Hellfire Ramparts, and got smashed and kicked because they had no idea what they were doing. The third had his first at 70, and got kicked 3 times in a row for not knowing what he was doing. Had to console the poor guy IRL.

I got two firends on board with Cata, and they both used the dungeon finder as the quests directed them while leveling up. By the time they hit 85, both understood what it meant to be in a group, but not necessarily what the best strategies were for pulls, what items were best for them, or what each boss' abilities were.

I would say that making dungeons or any multi player content more accessible as a player levels up ends up providing the greatest benefit to the game. Players will naturally learn what to do and what not do to over the course of their game play, and mistakes are easier to get over earlier on in the game.

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Perhaps because you spent more time in the endgame groups, whereas I spent more of mine in the regular dungeons.

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Just did a quick search for my old character.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...st/qa/advanced

I think I only ever did 3 or 4 raid boss fights in Cataclysm? All of my gear is heroics + reputation gear, 90% of which I earned by random dungeon finder groups and not pre-made groups. The few things that I did with pre-made groups were achievements, and even a good chunk of those I convinced pick up groups to do.

Oh, and personal experience again, but I found that most people loved the groups when I talked and when I was nice. I was told it was a breath of fresh air, and most people cooperated well when I asked nicely and explained things. Being nice is what got me great groups with the dungeon finder... and being nice is standard for almost all players on FFXIV, which will make the content finder great.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Just did a quick search for my old character.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...st/qa/advanced

I think I only ever did 3 or 4 raid boss fights in Cataclysm? All of my gear is heroics + reputation gear, 90% of which I earned by random dungeon finder groups and not pre-made groups. The few things that I did with pre-made groups were achievements, and even a good chunk of those I convinced pick up groups to do.

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I did make that a statement when I really meant it to be a question, so I deserved that reply I guess. :p

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Oh, and personal experience again, but I found that most people loved the groups when I talked and when I was nice. I was told it was a breath of fresh air, and most people cooperated well when I asked nicely and explained things. Being nice is what got me great groups with the dungeon finder... and being nice is standard for almost all players on FFXIV, which will make the content finder great.

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If you mean to ask if I was rude, or the people kicked of whom I refer to, they weren't (nor I ). The point I believe I really made was that the LFG allowed rudeness to fester, which I then later gave examples of ways to counteract that. You've indicated that WoW has made it's own countermeasures since I have last played, which I hope would mean the community and LFG have gotten better.

It just seems like you're picking a point that doesn't need picked. I'm not arguing against a dungeon finder. I merely pointed out side effects from it, and proposed countermeasures for it.

Soooo tootles. :cool: