Astro changes 5.1

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

When you lost all feeling playing a class that you just throw card buffs on yourself because it's boring and easy regardless of damage buff... SE please fix this

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Wow. Literally just play whm at that point. You'll do more damage with whm then just throwing the cards on yourself.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Wow. Literally just play whm at that point. You'll do more damage with whm then just throwing the cards on yourself.

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I prefer unique gameplay in my healer than just being a glarebringer but sadly AST is not unique until SE hears our plea for a better card system.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

I prefer unique gameplay in my healer than just being a glarebringer but sadly AST is not unique until SE hears our plea for a better card system.

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What's the point in playing AST when you dont even engage in the system that makes it unique?

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

What's the point in playing AST when you dont even engage in the system that makes it unique?

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whats the point of your trolling now?

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

What's the point in playing AST when you dont even engage in the system that makes it unique?

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I'm honestly ashamed of how so emotionally invested in this you are "Maybe one day when they take away what you love, I hope they dont care in the slightest?" Lol!

I supposed I should be finished with you as well since you're to stubborn to see the fact that tying assorted utility to a rng mechanic is inherently a flawed design. The thing that AST had was the reason I never played it? Why gamble and shuffle through random effects when I could have my consistency on SCH? Now that they've made the card system significantly more consistent I find the class more fun. I will take the rng effecting the potency over the effects themselves any day.

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Might want to be careful with what you say :P once on the internet its there forever afterall XD

I was one of the people that really disliked the card changes and even quit AST after making it my main since release but recently switched back to it. I definitely prefer the old cards, as it was satisfying when things went south being able to use an Ewer or Bole and whatnot, however as much as I hate to say it I really don't mind AST as it is right now. My biggest issue was when Divination had such a long cooldown. Now that it's shorter I find I enjoy it much more, as by the time you have the 3 seals generally Divination is pretty close to being ready again. When I think back to how often you actually would use a RR Balance before, I feel like Divination comes up just as often if not more and is satisfying when you can deploy it. I also like how there's less competition when you have another AST in the party, as that was always a huge pain having to constantly watch what cards they were using so that you don't accidentally overwrite the RR Balance they just did with your RR Spear that you hit 2 seconds after.

Might be an unpopular opinion but I actually really like playing in Nocturnal Sect and pretty much only use it unless I'm with a SCH. I find Celestial Opposition is super satisfying as well using it as a shield, and Neutral Sect also feels pretty badass. I don't do savage anything though so I understand a lot of issues come from that realm, but in terms of normal content, latest dungeons, EX and so on I prefer it.

I just wish that Horoscope triggered automatically at the end as I find it gets wasted often times.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

how there's less competition when you have another AST in the party, as that was always a huge pain having to constantly watch what cards they were using so that you don't accidentally overwrite the RR Balance they just did with your RR Spear that you hit 2 seconds after.

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See I find it to be the opposite. There’s even more competition when in a double Ast situation. None of our buffs stack. I can’t even tell you how many times I got stuck with another Ast when I decide to give it a chance, and my divination is wasted because the other Ast used theirs right after mine. So many lord or lady cards wasted by being replaced with lower potency cards or cards used on the wrong kind of dps. Being able to get out even more buffs makes you run into this issue a lot. The only time I never had an issue was the one Ast that didn’t use any cards. More often than not my stuff gets overwritten by cards that are on the wrong kind of dps. It’s so infuriating. So much potential dps boost wasted. I dunno.

I’m not a fan of this new Ast card system. I try to like it, but I just can’t play Ast the way it is right now, which makes me sad since I Mained it since it’s release. At least I have white mage c:

Mp issues are infuriating. If I dps and heal im constantly out of mana. Doing 24 man right now for ex, my co healer REFUSES to rez, is a WHM and jus sits and glares. Im healing, rezzing and TRYING to dps and I just can't. Would have no issue on my WHM :(

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Might want to be careful with what you say :P once on the internet its there forever afterall XD

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Thanks for the misquote. The point I was making was the fact that 5.0 is what made me switch from SCH to AST because I prefer the way AST plays now. AST is consistent and therefore it's fun for me now. Perhaps my error was not saying that there are other reasons I prefer AST besides the cards being more consistant? Such as AST's unlimited weave space and the fact that it's now the busiest of the healers gameplay wise, and that I find the Card into Divination loop far more engaging then fire and forgetting Chain.

And the fun part? I still do infact play SCH on occasion. But god forbid someone play multiple healers I'm a game where you can be multiple classes on the same character. But because of how AST has changed in 5.0 it's my preferred one now. My condolences if that makes you think I'm one of the people who ruined your class for you.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

whats the point of your trolling now?

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I'm just stating the obvious. Why play a class and intentionally use one of its mechanics suboptimally simply because you dont like it? It sounds like the kind of thing an ice mage would do?

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I'm just stating the obvious. Why play a class and intentionally use one of its mechanics suboptimally simply because you dont like it? It sounds like the kind of thing an ice mage would do?

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i guess u didn't understand my warning to another poster about it so allow me to enlighten you.

you wish those changes to stay and believe they are a good thing so what makes it true that they are good? people sticking to AST and not switching to another class cause those changes ruined the job they love.
so not only most healers probably left AST because of those changes but you actually try to convince those that stayed out of loyalty and love to the job who hate the changes leave it as well.
it will only strengthen our points and will advocate the fact that SE need to make a different system or return the old one back. it is simple as that but if you can't see it then pls continue driving more people away from AST to the point that you will probably be the only one left playing it :) .

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Thanks for the misquote.

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I don't know why you bother to explain it. It's pretty obvious that the two quotes have nothing to do with each other to anyone who is able to understand context.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Thanks for the misquote. The point I was making was the fact that 5.0 is what made me switch from SCH to AST because I prefer the way AST plays now. AST is consistent and therefore it's fun for me now.

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Just because it's fun for "you" doesn't mean it's the right way it should be. Destroying it's lore to fit your kind of game play shouldn't be the case. You may find it fun but I promise you, people who played the class more appreciated it's style of game play regardless of it's RNG of the cards. Many people feel this is the wrong way this class should be and you know something? They're right. RNG is not a flawed mechanic, that's how MMORPG's are. This entire month of gameplay I've seen about 6 astro players out of the hundreds of WHM, SCH's. Let that sink in with all the negative feedback we as a healer community express our disapproval of this card system.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Just because it's fun for "you" doesn't mean it's the right way it should be. Destroying it's lore to fit your kind of game play shouldn't be the case. You may find it fun but I promise you, people who played the class more appreciated it's style of game play regardless of it's RNG of the cards. Many people feel this is the wrong way this class should be and you know something? They're right. RNG is not a flawed mechanic, that's how MMORPG's are. This entire month of gameplay I've seen about 6 astro players out of the hundreds of WHM, SCH's. Let that sink in with all the negative feedback we as a healer community express our disapproval of this card system.

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Considering Astro is now pulling the highest rDPS of all three healers—by a 400-500 margin, no less—yet remains the least played healer in Savage by a landslide. It goes without saying the changes have been a complete flop. We'll see if this persists going into 5.2 but so far... very few people like the changes.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

i guess u didn't understand my warning to another poster about it so allow me to enlighten you.

you wish those changes to stay and believe they are a good thing so what makes it true that they are good? people sticking to AST and not switching to another class cause those changes ruined the job they love.
so not only most healers probably left AST because of those changes but you actually try to convince those that stayed out of loyalty and love to the job who hate the changes leave it as well.
it will only strengthen our points and will advocate the fact that SE need to make a different system or return the old one back. it is simple as that but if you can't see it then pls continue driving more people away from AST to the point that you will probably be the only one left playing it :) .

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TLDR, it's bowmage. There were people who liked it, but the playstyle change ended up being a major turn-off. Including, stuff like whatever Brandedblade is like doing right now

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Considering Astro is now pulling the highest rDPS of all three healers—by a 400-500 margin, no less—yet remains the least played healer in Savage by a landslide. It goes without saying the changes have been a complete flop. We'll see if this persists going into 5.2 but so far... very few people like the changes.

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In fairness, fflogs has been having a ton of issues lately. That site is going down every other hour. Though, I do doubt the changes will make AST that much more popular, but I do see the numbers growing for the people who get hard ons for numbers and only for numbers. Still, would wait for fflogs to actually work.

Honestly the way I'd have handled changes to cards is keep it as it was but change the following:

Minor Arcana does what it currently does but for a lower potency than old Balance.

If you get a card you don't want then you can force it into a Lord/Lady version of The Balance. Then you always have a backup with a base potency that is beneficial enough so the card doesn't feel wasted without picking it over other beneficial cards, because you've got poor luck, but in a way you're making your own luck to still benefit. If you've got the Bole and it'll help, sweet or if you wanna Royal Road it, great use. If you have no desire to use it, Minor Arcana it into a damage buff.

With the current system, I still am fishing for cards and I am using Minor Arcana when I don't have the ones I want, so it'd be no different, just it keeps the more interesting version of the card system in tact.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Thanks for the misquote. The point I was making was the fact that 5.0 is what made me switch from SCH to AST because I prefer the way AST plays now. AST is consistent and therefore it's fun for me now. Perhaps my error was not saying that there are other reasons I prefer AST besides the cards being more consistant? Such as AST's unlimited weave space and the fact that it's now the busiest of the healers gameplay wise, and that I find the Card into Divination loop far more engaging then fire and forgetting Chain.

And the fun part? I still do infact play SCH on occasion. But god forbid someone play multiple healers I'm a game where you can be multiple classes on the same character. But because of how AST has changed in 5.0 it's my preferred one now. My condolences if that makes you think I'm one of the people who ruined your class for you.

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No problem happy to ^^ , makes it easy to get more info out of people afterall :P

But the context is still there you didn't want to deal with AST pre 5.0 because it was too rng well that barely changed still plenty of rng on AST what with only 24% chance for 3 seal divination in 3 draws, with no redraws, so still more than 3/4 of the time you will need to fish. Everything being damage is nice but it has no flavor, no energy, no fun, no high on winning that lucky draw anymore.

Also shocking news i play all 3 healers even now, i know invested in all healers but have a preference for 1 the horror, the horror, yet that one was changed after 4 years of being nice to play, dun, dun, dun, so i'm unhappy and voicing for c-c-c-c-change /swoon :O

So for those who advocate the illusion of choice mentality,
Dnc has an illusion of choice
Old AST card system was not an illusion of choice
How do they differ? well i'll explain.

Dnc's illusion of choices are 1 step standard and 1,2,3 step technical, why would you do these at any point, they are options you can do but are functionally worthless, they are less potency by a good amount and not really worth the gcd loss to do especially technical step as you always want it up for boss being there.

How does old AST differ?
Bole - reduced dmg unpredictable but can be used during mass pulls reducing stress on you
Ewer- unpredictable extra mp regen (how many AST's currently feel the sting of mp presevation now) certainly useful when mass rezzes are needed or your co-healer just died.
Arrow- speed up, unpredictable, mighty handy for jobs like sam/war/blm/whm less so for others
Spear-Crit up unpredictable, always useful(especially brd/mnk)
Balance- Dmg up, unpredictable, always useful
Spire- tp regen, unpredictable, very useful in HW near useless in SB unless melee/tank suffered multiple deaths in a short duration.
Lord - Ogcd dmg , unpredictable, always useful
Lady - Ogcd heal, unpredictable, somewhat useful as other than ED this severely helped with Drk's living dead while allowing you to still dps or just extra heal power in dps mode.

So while there are clear favorites that people want, only Spire was near functionally worthless and in SB only due to tp changes that came with the expansion, this whole balance was the only card is wrong it wasn't balance couldn't function without its counterparts in the deck, what illusion of choice was there every card had a use if you couldn't handle deciding on the fly what buff was best on whom AST was not the healer for you, still not, but dear god do i miss those other flavors they certainly kept the monotonous gameplay at bay longer.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

But the context is still there you didn't want to deal with AST pre 5.0 because it was too rng well that barely changed still plenty of rng on AST what with only 24% chance for 3 seal divination in 3 draws, with no redraws, so still more than 3/4 of the time you will need to fish. Everything being damage is nice but it has no flavor, no energy, no fun, no high on winning that lucky draw anymore.

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Considering you get 4 Redraws per Divination window, why would you not use them to raise your probability of a 3 seal divination to 80%?

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Considering you get 4 Redraws per Divination window, why would you not use them to raise your probability of a 3 seal divination to 80%?

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You can but it's not always gonna happen. Sometimes you'll get stuck drawing same multiple seals in a row wasting your redraw attempts. You're pretty much getting 5% most of the time. It's RNG and it's gonna happen I can live with it because that 1% extra damage isn't gonna bother me much. Can anyone honestly say they used Undraw? Because I haven't.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

You can but it's not always gonna happen.

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It's not always going to happen. It's going to happen 80% of the time.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Sometimes you'll get stuck drawing same multiple seals in a row wasting your redraw attempts. You're pretty much getting 5% most of the time.

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20% of the time is not most of the time.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Considering you get 4 Redraws per Divination window, why would you not use them to raise your probability of a 3 seal divination to 80%?

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Actually you only get a 32% chance to have 3 seal divination in 3 draws with using redraw on 2nd and 3rd draw, redrawing only changes the odds once, anytime after the 1st doesn't increase your odds of getting the correct seal as the probability remains the same.

1 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 0.22(my bad math brain pooped today not 24% but 22%) - base probability you get what you want with no interference
1 x 4/5 x 2/5 = 0.32 - the probability of getting what you want with redraw on both the 2nd and 3rd draw

and the moment you redraw is the moment you are fishing the very reason the devs cited for the card system change

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Actually you only get a 32% chance to have 3 seal divination in 3 draws with using redraw on 2nd and 3rd draw, redrawing only changes the odds once, anytime after the 1st doesn't increase your odds of getting the correct seal as the probability remains the same.

1 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 0.22(my bad math brain pooped today not 24% but 22%) - base probability you get what you want with no interference
1 x 4/5 x 2/5 = 0.32 - the probability of getting what you want with redraw on both the 2nd and 3rd draw

and the moment you redraw is the moment you are fishing the very reason the devs cited for the card system change

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That is not how probability works.

1) When looking for the 2nd seal, you have 2 seals you don't need and 4 seals you need. That means a Draw has a 2/3 probability to give you what you want. A Redraw has a 4/5 probability to give you what you want.

In order to use a Redraw, you have to FAIL a Draw. You have to calculate it as a chain of probabilities. You either succeed with the 2/3 or you fail (1/3 of the time) and succeed with the 4/5.
If you do "Draw + Redraw", then your probability to get a different seal is 2/3 (succeed Draw) + 1/3 (fail Draw) * 4/5 (succeed Redraw) = 14/15 = 0.9333 = 93.33%.


2) As for the 3rd seal, you have 4 seals you don't need and 2 seals you need. That means a Draw has a 1/3 probability to give you what you want. A Redraw has a 2/5 probability to give you what you want.

The same logic applies. You either succeed with the 1/3 or you fail (2/3 of the time) and succeed with the 2/5. That is 1/3 (succeed Draw) + 2/3 (fail Draw) * 2/5 (succeed Redraw) = 9/15 = 0.600 (60%).


Putting both together, with a strategy of Draw (1st seal), Draw + Redraw (2nd seal), Draw + Redraw (3rd seal), your overall probability for a 3 seal Divination is 14/15 * 3/5 = 42/75 = 0.56 (56%)
We have one more Draw and 2 more Redraws that we have not considered in the Divination window.

Long story short, you can bring your overall probability over 80% by making calculated decisions about your Draws/Redraws.

If anyone is interested in something more in-depth, just drop a DM.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

It's not always going to happen. It's going to happen 80% of the time.



20% of the time is not most of the time.

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I'd like to differ on my experiences with my opener and also it's not rewarding enough for me to go out of my way for that 1% extra damage when I'm having to throw cards constantly during Sleeve draw with light speed. Increase the buff and make the 3rd different seal more rewarding. Though I'm not here to calculate RNG experiences.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

I'd like to differ on my experiences with my opener and also it's not rewarding enough for me to go out of my way for that 1% extra damage when I'm having to throw cards constantly during Sleeve draw with light speed. Increase the buff and make the 3rd different seal more rewarding. Though I'm not here to calculate RNG experiences.

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I'm talking about Divination windows, not the opener. The goal of the opener is not to get a 3 seal Divination, it's to get Divination out in time in order to get the most out of everybody's openers.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

I'm talking about Divination windows, not the opener. The goal of the opener is not to get a 3 seal Divination, it's to get Divination out in time in order to get the most out of everybody's openers.

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Shouldn't it be both? Obviously you want 3 seals for that 6% damage boost but RNG can still be your worse enemy. Can't tell you how many melee cards I've drawn and I'm not even concerned with divination or the seal issue. I'm only here to make my voice known about the depressing card system AST has now. Rest of the stuff doesn't bother me but this card system has never made so disappointed at it until this change.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

and the moment you redraw is the moment you are fishing the very reason the devs cited for the card system change

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THIS ---------- ^

so very much this.

It would be like telling us they were doing away with some abilities because of button bloat, and then dividing Draw and Play into two different buttons.

Oh i oop..

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

THIS ---------- ^

so very much this.

It would be like telling us they were doing away with some abilities because of button bloat, and then dividing Draw and Play into two different buttons.

Oh i oop..

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SE: *creates cards and the ability to redraw them*
Also SE: Guys please stop fishing
Also also SE: *gives Redraw three charges*
Also also also SE: *creates a skill that spawns three cards over 30s*
Also also also also SE: *adds a skill to safely convert unwanted cards and make fishing even easier*
Also also also also also SE: *makes a skill that represents half of an AST's buffs and requires fishing to use optimally*

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Shouldn't it be both? Obviously you want 3 seals for that 6% damage boost but RNG can still be your worse enemy. Can't tell you how many melee cards I've drawn and I'm not even concerned with divination or the seal issue. I'm only here to make my voice known about the depressing card system AST has now. Rest of the stuff doesn't bother me but this card system has never made so disappointed at it until this change.

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Probability dictates that 5% is your most likely outcome. If you use a total of 2 Redraws, you're at 56% of a 6% Divination. But all this is secondary.

Your number one priority is getting the Divination out in time, regardless of seals. This is because party buffs stack with each other and the opener is the biggest burst you will have in the entire fight.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Probability dictates that 5% is your most likely outcome. If you use a total of 2 Redraws, you're at 56% of a 6% Divination. But all this is secondary.

Your number one priority is getting the Divination out in time, regardless of seals. This is because party buffs stack with each other and the opener is the biggest burst you will have in the entire fight.

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I'm aware of how to play my class. Hopefully they'll look at the card system in the coming future.