5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework

How about:

Delirium: Successfully using a weaponskill turns the next weaponskill into an ability.

For example, if you were smashing your buttons while delirious it might go something like: Hard Slash (GCD) - Syphon Strike (oGCD) - Souleater (GCD) - Bloodspiller (oGCD) - Unmend (GCD) - Stalwart Soul (oGCD) - etc. etc. you get the idea.

Trying to play into the frenzied image that pops in my head when I imagine a Dark Knight in the grip of delirium.

it will indeed way better that current delirium, all i want for christmas is a delirium rework ^^

Hi first post o/, not native english so sorry if i mess it up.

So bear with my ramblings, the combo of Drk would be like Monk's where you hit the gcd and the next gcd can be two ( this idea is from another person ofc), and would be as follows:

Hard Slash --> Delirium( old animation): potenciates next gcd effect-------> Carve and Spit( is now a gcd): potenciates next gcd effect, delirium effect:gives 1000 mp---------> Power Slash: next FoS will cost 20 sec of darkside instead of mp. CySpit effect: -20 sec to Abyssal drain cd.
Hard Slash--> Syphon Strike: grants 500 mp and for next 10 sec reduces tbn cost to 2000 mp--------> Soul Eater: gives 20 blood and hp, delirium effect: ensures hp gaing is critical and direct hit also gives 30 of blood instead of 20--------> Scourge: adds 20 sec to darkside. CySpit effect: grant extra 20 blood.

The "potenciates effects" given by Delirium and Carve and Spit are a buff that doesnt fade until Power slash or scourge are used in case of delirium buff effect; Or until Delirium or Syphon Strike are used in case of Carve and Spit buff effect, is this way so when using Pandemonium both the gcd and ogcd attacks are given the buffs.

Potencies: Hard Slash is 200
Delirium and Syphon Strike is 300
CySpit and Soul eater is 400
Power slash and scourge is 500

And then the current "delirium" ability would do what Jandor said before my comment i will call it "pandemonium" because both end in "um", UmU, the change would be that the hard slash--> delirium--> carve and spit--> power slash combo isnt affected by Pandemonium and work as a normal combo , an example would be like this:
Unmend ---Pandemonium(ogcd)---> Hard Slash ---Syphon Strike(ogcd)---> Delirium ---Soul eater(ogcd)---> Carve and Spit ---Scourge(ogcd)---> Power Slash ---Blood Spiller(ogcd)---> Hard Slash ---Syphon Strike(ogcd), and end of pandemonium effect.

Aye, good luck understanding what i just wrote HAhahaha, may the moogles be with those reading this o7.

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Originally Posted by PeacefulEdge

Hi first post o/, not native english so sorry if i mess it up.

So bear with my ramblings, the combo of Drk would be like Monk's where you hit the gcd and the next gcd can be two ( this idea is from another person ofc), and would be as follows:

Hard Slash --> Delirium( old animation): potenciates next gcd effect-------> Carve and Spit( is now a gcd): potenciates next gcd effect, delirium effect:gives 1000 mp---------> Power Slash: next FoS will cost 20 sec of darkside instead of mp. CySpit effect: -20 sec to Abyssal drain cd.
Hard Slash--> Syphon Strike: grants 500 mp and for next 10 sec reduces tbn cost to 2000 mp--------> Soul Eater: gives 20 blood and hp, delirium effect: ensures hp gaing is critical and direct hit also gives 30 of blood instead of 20--------> Scourge: adds 20 sec to darkside. CySpit effect: grant extra 20 blood.

The "potenciates effects" given by Delirium and Carve and Spit are a buff that doesnt fade until Power slash or scourge are used in case of delirium buff effect; Or until Delirium or Syphon Strike are used in case of Carve and Spit buff effect, is this way so when using Pandemonium both the gcd and ogcd attacks are given the buffs.

Potencies: Hard Slash is 200
Delirium and Syphon Strike is 300
CySpit and Soul eater is 400
Power slash and scourge is 500

And then the current "delirium" ability would do what Jandor said before my comment i will call it "pandemonium" because both end in "um", UmU, the change would be that the hard slash--> delirium--> carve and spit--> power slash combo isnt affected by Pandemonium and work as a normal combo , an example would be like this:
Unmend ---Pandemonium(ogcd)---> Hard Slash ---Syphon Strike(ogcd)---> Delirium ---Soul eater(ogcd)---> Carve and Spit ---Scourge(ogcd)---> Power Slash ---Blood Spiller(ogcd)---> Hard Slash ---Syphon Strike(ogcd), and end of pandemonium effect.

Aye, good luck understanding what i just wrote HAhahaha, may the moogles be with those reading this o7.

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Less oGCDs and more GCDs is what DRK needs the most... a lot of the animations are just too long for oCGD use, because of the fact that you're using a huge sword that requires 2 hands to use...

well is true they are long, but it isnt only a ogcd problem, if you do bloodspiller and use EoS right away the animation stops before ending and as EoS animation happens bloodspiller's sky beam descends. That happens when you want to double weave, the animation of the first ogcd used will eat away part of the previous gcd animation.

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Originally Posted by PeacefulEdge

well is true they are long, but it isnt only a ogcd problem, if you do bloodspiller and use EoS right away the animation stops before ending and as EoS animation happens bloodspiller's sky beam descends. That happens when you want to double weave, the animation of the first ogcd used will eat away part of the previous gcd animation.

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Just make Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow GCD.

It also happens with plunge, Carve and Spit,... if you want to double weave something it will happen xD. That aside, making FoS/EoS gcd would be a dps loss that could be filled with making abyssal drain or salted earth meaningful and hopefully a proper blood weapon skill with more uptime and a skill speed gain, one can dream.

I cannot stand double weaving due to how often the GCD can actually clip if you do double weave, and I can only stand single weaving so long as GCD doesn't clip with how fast GCD can potentially get, and it doesn't break both GCD and oGCD animations.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Just make Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow GCD.

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All of my no

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Originally Posted by Lammas

All of my no

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Is it because they would be counted as spells and not weaponskills? If that's the case just make Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow weaponskills.

It's because it would shake things up a lot. First the potency would have to be buffed a lot to make up for it taking up a GCD slot instead of being OGCD. With those kind of potencies Edge would become the back bone of your burst GCDs. Taking a TBN proc into burst windows would become pretty much a requirement for anyone wanting to do decent damage. I'd also rather not have the TBN reward be on GCD again to begin with and I'd want it to be an obvious gain even less when currently it's mostly neutral unless you take that into raidbuffs.
This would not exactly be a small "just change this" kind of thing. It would affect your rotation and the feel of the class a lot. If I wanted to play with almost everything being on GCD I'd play Warrior.

If you are experiencing clipping even with single weaving you should definitely look into a VPN by the way. Sounds like serious connection issues.

Well Lammas, as i wrote before the potency lost from having Edge as a gcd would go to making our remaining ogcds more meaningful adding synergy or what not, its potency would still be 500 at the cost of 3000 mp, lower than bloodspiller thus making it not the demanding gcd for our burst window. Also i dont know why making it gcd means you have to proc tbn during a burst phase, if tbn breaks is neutral dps wise, EoS being ogcd or gcd doesnt matter as they share the same amount of resource.
Yet i do see your point of not wanting Drk to have less ogcds as right now is one of the little things that separate it from Warrior.

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Originally Posted by PeacefulEdge

Well Lammas, as i wrote before the potency lost from having Edge as a gcd would go to making our remaining ogcds more meaningful adding synergy or what not, its potency would still be 500 at the cost of 3000 mp, lower than bloodspiller thus making it not the demanding gcd for our burst window. Also i dont know why making it gcd means you have to proc tbn during a burst phase, if tbn breaks is neutral dps wise, EoS being ogcd or gcd doesnt matter as they share the same amount of resource.
Yet i do see your point of not wanting Drk to have less ogcds as right now is one of the little things that separate it from Warrior.

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You seriously underestimate the difference of what would happen if you moved something OGCD to GCD, especially something that's used as much as EoS. That's very far from the truth. Being on GCD is a "resource" by itself.

One of my latest fights had 40 Edges in it. That's 40 * 500 potency that does not take up a GCD. In a sense it's "free" as it's not taking up a GCD slot from the fight.

You put Edge on GCD and every edge you use becomes another GCD that you just lost because of that. You'd still want to use Edge because it's so powerful but it's no longer "free".

That innocent little change would end up losing 40 GCDs worth of damage in a fight. That's thousands upon thousands of potency. You'd need some seriously heavyhanded potency changes on the "remaining OGCDs" to make up for that kind of a difference.

EDIT: I just realized I severely missread that message I quoted and answered with something completely else.

Yup thats a lot of dps lost, we could put blood weapon and salted earth as they were on SB, buff abyssal drain potency a bit and change delirium into the "after using a weaponskill next weaponskill will become an ogcd ability" but with a much lower cd like of 45-60 seconds and a duration of 4 gcds instead of 5, etc... There are always paths to dump dmg into a job, the difficult part is how pleasantly that dps number is delivered.

Ofc im writing all this for the funssies, im not expecting to be taken seriously about what i write, just here talking about life and edgy sword masters, giving my part to the thread because as someone once said:

"When i held him in my arms i felt hope, for what, i dont know"

Now i will take my leave while i feel like an actual wise person. Hurhurhur o7.

Honestly DRK would probably work better with GCD burst damage that doesn't rely on Delirium being discount Inner Release/Requiescat, but the frequency of said burst GCD would need to be 30 seconds for each burst GCD if the devs really want DRK to spam Souleater combo the entire fight.

So kind of like a Drk flavoured gnash combo, For example could be Delirium( old animation)---> Scourge---> Power Slash and instead of having a "continuation" skill the perks of the combo could be that it has a 2.05-2.15 skill speed and gives big resources like for example Delirium reduces the cost of the next Flood of Shadows used to 1000 mp, Scourge give us 50 blood and Power Slash 2000 mp this way instead of worring about been obliged to double weave at high speeds( pretty sure the opener would still be a double weaving party) it would be about not capping resources. Though maybe having this combo every 30 seconds would be a higher dps gain than current delirium :( .

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Originally Posted by PeacefulEdge

So kind of like a Drk flavoured gnash combo, For example could be Delirium( old animation)---> Scourge---> Power Slash and instead of having a "continuation" skill the perks of the combo could be that it has a 2.05-2.15 skill speed and gives big resources like for example Delirium reduces the cost of the next Flood of Shadows used to 1000 mp, Scourge give us 50 blood and Power Slash 2000 mp this way instead of worring about been obliged to double weave at high speeds( pretty sure the opener would still be a double weaving party) it would be about not capping resources. Though maybe having this combo every 30 seconds would be a higher dps gain than current delirium :( .

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Or just Heavensward DRK with Stormblood DRK's 4.3 changes, with the stuff they threw in at Shadowbringers launch but that's just pipe dream at this point...

I just can't stand the 'feel' of DRK in SHB. So much so that it's gone from being my main, to me looking for another tank (GNB, perhaps). I don't like that our damage buff is in some way related to darkest night, or that darkest night feels like the best solution for mitigation in practically every situation, since the other shields don't grant a boon if they're broken. Delirium is basically a "press this button to spam" ability that feels completely monotonous and unrewarding to use, and blood weapon, similarly, lacks any 'cool' factor now that it's just a way to siphon back some MP.

I'll say upfront that I'm not a technical player. For me, it's all about how satisfying a job feels to play, not where it's at in the current meta. The DRK might be doing great on that front, I don't know, nor care, but it's gone from being a job that was a joy to use, to one that just feels clunky unappealing. A big disappointment for me, given that I thought ShB would be DRK's time to shine.

Well yeah, in the technical part is as someone said, the more "complete version of Drk" but that has been achieved through making it well… really close to the other tanks instead of deepening its own previous tool-kit.

For example about counter mechanics, well we have "dance partner" on Dancer right?, lets have "linked shadows" skill on Drk, if you are MT dont use it, now if you are OT you use it on the MT and what it does is that changes the target of the skill to the marked target.
Blood Price for example, gives back mp if you are hit, with linked shadows it changes the requirement from <self> to <t1> so if MT takes dmg you are still getting the effect, ofc dont use blood Price the moment a Pld or a Gbn decides to HG or Hiperbolide :>.

I know I'm going to get flack for this but in the interest of reality here it goes. As much as I would love it, and believe the paying customers are right to want more out of this job (and the role as a whole), I don't think a rework that is deeply tied into how the overall job functions (by numbers) is going to happen at this point. Although based on a survey I saw on reddit it does appear they (se) have been fixing jobs in order of least satisfaction, with exception for WAR, so who knows. For next expansion though I want a unique design style for DRK, one that isn't going to be whored out in future expansions, and is tied into lore. Delirium should have never become inner release. I'm in the conspiracy camp that GNB Continuation style play was meant for dark knight but then was a co-op to GNB since it fit well. Needing something, and not wanting to use extra time/manpower/money on DRK, was the birth of DelIRium - the other alternative is pure laziness on the part of the dev team... I don't believe that but maybe it's just me.

I feel, to a lesser extent, strongly about this for WAR too since they got ir as a hand-me-down from PLD. At least there was some variants between PLD and WAR in 4.x (actually in 5.x one could argue they are closer than 4.x because of the healing aspect from nf, and pld having the mobility like war already had in 4.x ir window); There is little difference, conceptually, between inner release and delirium except that delirium is worse and clearly a mathematical filler ability with no kit synergy.

My biggest gripe to SE would be if you didn't know how to make all the tank jobs feel unique and different and continue to be engaging then you should have stuck with two and continued to tweak them. They can't seem to make more than two at a time fun and appealing to a comp during a single expansion. And from the lack of response we get I'm making a reasonable guess that they are okay with leaving two in a lackluster spot if two are preferred and fun. DRK is a gutted one trick pony and I have a feeling, based on past reworks, its going to be rinse and repeat next expansion. While other jobs build upon their unique abilities DRK will be reworked in a way that has no depth again. It'll be giving us things like dark missionary in 5.x which we should have had in 4.x after war was revamped (SiO) since it gave an advange to taking a war/pld comp - thanks again se.

At the very least fix LD during this expansion. Yoshi said he would look into it. Presuming he did.... I'd actually like to know where he stands after looking into it and what his reasoning is for not doing something about it. I remember him saying something about not wanting to touch HG for fear of player backlash but nothing about LD. Are we entitled to an answer? Yes! We pay for a service don't we? Concerned costumers is the term I would use.

I sometimes believe is some kind of bias more than anything else, SE as delivery ignoring DRK request and feedback since the job has been released, other wise we won't keep having the same complaints since 3.0 + others of SB like living dead, proper darkside aura, scourge back, more combos like HW days, shadow skin back, more MP expender options (this one bcs dark arts spam was attached to no longer have dark passenger being usefull) and any feedback to recover the Heavensward gameplay feeling and they answer as always been "they are complaint about this? Ok let's ignore they feedback and proceed to nerf it to the ground or remove it from the game" "but now we have nothing left in the job boss" "copy paste inner release and we think about it next expansion"

I really can’t remember their hang up that led them to move away from HW DRK as it was? (besides the difficulty)It was a built in game mechanic they wanted to get rid of I think... evasion maybe? Either way, someone recently said it right “it’s a mile wide and one inch thick.” The job has no depth. Still worse, is that it has no foundation to build on currently. Everything it had that was unique has been given away and the only thing we are left with is TBN.

For being stuck with LD, se should make DRK as a whole god tier.

http://i.imgur.com/M4qOY6F.jpg
I just wanna go back

I love all the old icons, DRK bar use to be more darker with all those purple-red skills and now with all ht generic skills and such looks way less edgy.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I love all the old icons, DRK bar use to be more darker with all those purple-red skills and now with all ht generic skills and such looks way less edgy.

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Are you telling me rampart isn’t doing it for you???!

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Originally Posted by Danelo

Are you telling me rampart isn’t doing it for you???!

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I will climb the Everest if that means i recover shadow skin (and foresight for WAR) :3

In hindsight, it's funny that SE had the glorious idea to remove Reprisal, Low Blow, Scourge, and later completely remove Blood Price, and Anitcipation/Dark Dance - so everything that made you go MT (for procs) - while keeping Shield Swipe for PLD during SB, still keep the reflect damage on Vengeance, and add a Scourge-like Dot on GNB plus all-round CD like Camouflage... yet Dark Mind still doesn't have any physical defense buff...

I wonder, if WAR and GNB can have gimmicks, why can't DRK?

Why keep Vengeance, and leave all other 3 CDs completely blank, but have 'Rampart' homogenous?

DRK is just a copy paste of 4.2 bad designed, brain dead WAR, so the problem still remains.

Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.
(I'm beginning to think this might make a good signature...)

I imagine se has learned their lesson with whoring out uniqueness of DRK so they’ll not share GNB’s unique (recycled) traits across other jobs. But I am hopeful for a new and innovative approach to DRK in 6.0 if not sooner. If DRK can’t remedied without feeling an expansion behind again then just revert it to hw DRK w/ sb aoe loop and call it a day.

a bit more that a month for 5.2, let's hope they did this request.

I loved Dark Dance and low blow and reprisal procs. Blood price was great in HW too.

DA-DD had some unique uses too......sigh, this class used to be so much more

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Originally Posted by Falar

I loved Dark Dance and low blow and reprisal procs. Blood price was great in HW too.

DA-DD had some unique uses too......sigh, this class used to be so much more

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Dude... I LOVED Dark Arts+Dark Dance and Dark Arts+Dark Passenger combo because every dodge you made felt like the attack just phased through you and I ended up falling in love with the evasion tank playstyle.


And if they bring back Dark Passenger as not only an accuracy down debuff but also as an evasion up buff, I would just cry tears of joy...

You know what the devs really need to do? Fix blood weapon. How is it that I can hit all my cleaves under IR no problem, but with Blood Weapon hitting 5 GCDs becomes a matter of becoming ultra vigilant and avoiding double weaves like your life depends on it, and praying that you hit that button at the right time in your GCD. Good lord, it's punishing to an unfair degree. 9 GCDs on no mercy? no problem. 5 GCDs under blood weapon? send help!

while blood weapon is bad per see thanks to how annoying is the buff, the smart aproach would be return blood weapon and delirium to his prior state on SB, they work well, they was unique and they fit the DRK theme present since release as a resource management tank and most importantly they where not broken so they didn't need that mindless rework mostly when the MP economy can be easy ajusted independent of how the skills works to solve the dark arts spam "problem" if they keep taking that aproach instead of giving more options as we asked but well.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Dude... I LOVED Dark Arts+Dark Dance and Dark Arts+Dark Passenger combo because every dodge you made felt like the attack just phased through you and I ended up falling in love with the evasion tank playstyle.


And if they bring back Dark Passenger as not only an accuracy down debuff but also as an evasion up buff, I would just cry tears of joy...

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I loved that combo too, especially on hero pulls.

I just wish they bring back the sks increase in blood weapon, revert delirium as it was in sb and maybe add a second combo finisher with scourge (or put it as a gcd w/ its own separate cooldown). Obviously there are many other stuff i'd like to see different but those are the ones that killed the fun i had with drk.

well letter in 14 days guys, this is basically the dead line of this request, whatever happen i want to thank everyone for the support of this request and lets pray for SE grant us a better DRK for all of us.

No. Suffering is our way. Our End. Our Answer.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

No. Suffering is our way. Our End. Our Answer.

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This isn't a roleplay thread, this is a specific ability(or abilities) change request thread. If you have nothing to add to the discussion then please don't post.


Back on topic, DRK needs a serious re-work to how it feels to play overall so that it feels like I'm playing a DRK and not WAR, and I also want think like a DRK while playing as a DRK, but I'm forced to think like a braindead WAR with magic attacks and that's not fun to me. Let us take off the training wheels so we can learn on our own.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

This isn't a roleplay thread, this is a specific ability(or abilities) change request thread. If you have nothing to add to the discussion then please don't post.


Back on topic, DRK needs a serious re-work to how it feels to play overall so that it feels like I'm playing a DRK and not WAR, and I also want think like a DRK while playing as a DRK, but I'm forced to think like a braindead WAR with magic attacks and that's not fun to me. Let us take off the training wheels so we can learn on our own.

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Calm down man. People post random things. As long as they aren't rude just let them be.

After swapping to DRK in TEA I still agree Delirium needs change. Like why did SE take the one part of WAR that as a former WAR main DETEST with a passion due to it basically killing the job into a meme at this point and place it into DRK? Like, WHY? Okay you gave us Bloodspiller, so what does that mean PLD is getting an IR equivalent next expansion for attonement?
I don't mind the flood/edge of shadow because its basically just like DAs spaming. The Delirium just... wtf.