Abuse of the TOS. Loophole regarding griefing/trolling. Needs a solution.

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

How tho? I mean, I have people I get along with in game, but frankly I couldnt care less what somewhat says or thinks about me. This is some serious soap opera shit. I'm not there to make friends for life, I have those outside of the game. If everyone on my friendslist decided to ignore me it'd be fine, I'll find other folks to play with.

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Newsflash: You are you and others are others. Just because you are "not there to make friends for life" and don't give kitten doesn't mean that it's an universal truth and applies to everyone. Everyone is different, reacts differently and values different aspects. "Don't do this and that" sounds nice and all, but when it comes to emotions and social aspects, such advices are sometimes easier said than done.

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

Newsflash: You are you and others are others. Just because you are "not there to make friends for life" and don't give kitten doesn't mean that it's an universal truth and applies to everyone. Everyone is different, reacts differently and values different aspects. "Don't do this and that" sounds nice and all, but when it comes to emotions and social aspects, such advices are sometimes easier said than done.

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Just bc I lock my front door when I leave my house doesn't mean everyone does it. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't tho ^^ If an MMO can affect you in such ways it's probably time to seek counseling instead of putting all your energy into keeping your bubble intact imo.

Having played many years on WoWs RP server I encountered the "OMG RP, lets trash it!" attitude more than once.

The only real solution is to RP in private, at least use private channels.

I can kinda understand people being annoyed too, if you spam half a book into the /say chat. Not everyone is interested in your personal stories.
Form a party, use /p or use one of them link shells and enjoy your RP silence, because no one will bother to disturb two seemingly AFK characters. Also, you can enjoy the freedom that comes with privacy, not having to worry of writing sth. offensive (more relevant for erotic roleplay or role play arguments containing insults etc).
You can even fake the /afk tag via game options.

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

Just bc I lock my front door when I leave my house doesn't mean everyone does it. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't tho ^^ If an MMO can affect you in such ways it's probably time to seek counseling instead of putting all your energy into keeping your bubble intact imo.

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Maybe people ought to stop being sick creepers. Stop acting out their molestatious urges in game and seek help themselves. Cause if they're willing to do that to a complete stranger, who knows what they're going to do to an innocent person close to them.

And if you're one of those people. Seriously get help. Because you don't want someone like me on your jury when you get caught hurting someone in real life.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I dont RP but great to have a discussion while using gifs, surely makes a point.

Its funny when you have someone in your FC that you first trust and that turns out to be the worst. Talking bad about you or others, trying to create constant drama in FC chat. Following us when he was kicked out. Trying to split our group with lies. (Thankfully we came prepared) Stalking you over the maps to emote to you, going into your houses to stand next to you and more. He managed to make one person stop playing the game, made one person change server because of his acts and created drama in countless of FCs.

Stalking was one part of his actions. So please dont tell others that this is just an online game and thus nothing bad could happen..people can do a lot especially in the safety of hiding behind fake names. And not everyone has the nerves of pure steel to handle such a person. Predators exits everywhere and the OP has mentioned that this group has followed them more than once. This was not a joke..these are people that are doing this on purpose.

All of this could be changed for the better if blacklist would function differently:

- Blacklisting one character should automatically blacklist the whole account: I have a reason to blacklist the person so I dont want to deal with alts.
- It should not be possible at all to land in parties with blacklisted people. Those should also not be able to get into a group that has a person in it that blacklisted you.
- Blacklists should make it impossible to track someone ingame, be it through search or by showing the name.
- Be able to turn your house permission to: everyone but those on blacklist

And with a perfect system it would be nice to be invisible to that person and also dont see them in return. Thus no matter how much they travel and try to find one you cant be seen by them.

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I'm not trying to be mean or anything, and I like to use gifs to show my emotion at certain statements, I don't think the emoticons portray it well enough.

Wait, he would follow people around and.... emote to them? The horror! We should call 911 on them right now! Lock them up, and throw away the key! He would go into other people's houses and..... stand next to them? Oh no! Holy guacamole!

I'm sorry, I just find this to be absolutely ridiculous to actually equate this with real life stalking, and label this person as a "predator". You realize how serious those crimes actually are in real life?

https://media3.giphy.com/media/9VrsR...s1h/source.gif

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, and I like to use gifs to show my emotion at certain statements, I don't think the emoticons portray it well enough.

Wait, he would follow people around and.... emote to them? The horror! We should call 911 on them right now! Lock them up, and throw away the key! He would go into other people's houses and..... stand next to them? Oh no! Holy guacamole!

I'm sorry, I just find this to be absolutely ridiculous to actually equate this with real life stalking, and label this person as a "predator". You realize how serious those crimes actually are in real life?

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Just because you cannot understand or feel empathy for the situation, doesn't mean it needs to be justified or ridiculed.
Because that makes you part of the problem.
You're dealing with other people, the least you can do is show respect for what they are doing.


If you do get upset by it, then the least you can do is talk to them, or just move somewhere else.
Which yes, can apply to both directions, but I'm pretty sure the RP was happening before the trolls showed up.


Try to be a decent human being, even online.
It's really not that difficult

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Just because you cannot understand or feel empathy for the situation, doesn't mean it needs to be justified or ridiculed.
Because that makes you part of the problem.
You're dealing with other people, the least you can do is show respect for what they are doing.


If you do get upset by it, then the least you can do is talk to them, or just move somewhere else.
Which yes, can apply to both directions, but I'm pretty sure the RP was happening before the trolls showed up.


Try to be a decent human being, even online.
It's really not that difficult

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It's. a. game.

https://emojis.wiki/emoji-pics/messe...-messenger.png

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It's. a. game.

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And that justifies you acting like a twat?

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

And that justifies you acting like a twat?

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Look, if someone is repeatedly harassing another to some actual degree to where the game experience is lessened I agree that a GM should step in if it is actually severe enough (the actually harassed). However, I think it is ridiculous and completely laughable that people are trying to equate these examples to real life stalking and labeling these people as "predators". Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. Being emoted at in a video game is nothing compared to the real life harm that an actual stalker, or predator can do. It trivializes real victims.

If being emoted at in a video game effects someone this severely emotionally, maybe they should turn off the game, or better yet get off the internet.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Look, if someone is repeatedly harassing another to some actual degree to where the game experience is lessened I agree that a GM should step in if it is actually severe enough (the actually harassed). However, I think it is ridiculous and completely laughable that people are trying to equate these examples to real life stalking and labeling these people as "predators". Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. Being emoted at in a video game is nothing compared to the real life harm that an actual stalker, or predator can do. It trivializes real victims.

If being emoted at in a video game effects someone this severely emotionally, maybe they should turn off the game, or better yet get off the internet.

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I agree that the stalking discussion is over the top for me as well.
I'm not one to generalize normally, but these feels like a "US thing"


But yes, if someone is diminishing your game experience with their behavior, call a GM and let them sort it out.
As SturmChurro said, this is a game, and it's supposed to be fun.
Nobody has the right to infer on that.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It's. a. game.

https://emojis.wiki/emoji-pics/messe...-messenger.png

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You can even show empathy in a game. Try at least to acquire some basic empathy and apply it on a case-by-case basis. It won't affect you negatively in-game or IRL nor will it harm you.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'm sorry, I just find this to be absolutely ridiculous to actually equate this with real life stalking, and label this person as a "predator". You realize how serious those crimes actually are in real life?

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Newsflash: there are other people behind the computer screen. Multiplayer games are essentially real life in the regards of being able to hurt s/o's feelings.
Sure, you can't do physical harm but you can give s/o a really bad time and imho such behavior should be taken action against.

I know this is the Internet. I know that normal person + anonymity + audience = asshat. Doesn't mean there aren't lines that should not be crossed.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Maybe people ought to stop being sick creepers. Stop acting out their molestatious urges in game and seek help themselves. Cause if they're willing to do that to a complete stranger, who knows what they're going to do to an innocent person close to them.

And if you're one of those people. Seriously get help. Because you don't want someone like me on your jury when you get caught hurting someone in real life.

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You know there will always be people like that. Just as there will always be murderers.You can teach people it's wrong, you can punish them for doing it, but there will always people doing it no matter what. Should they stop? Sure, it would make the world a much better place. Will they stop? Nope. So the only factor you can influence in that equation is doing everything you can to prevent it happening to you. You can rant all day about how people should stop breaking into houses which will change nothing , or you can just lock your door and put your energy into something else ;)

Friend of mine more or less got chased out of FFXI because there was a guy who wanted her to be his girlfriend but she turned him down. He'd tell spam, make alts to get around it, tell lies to friends to get them to harass her, would follow her around to different zones and try to ruin EXP parties she was in, and basically do anything and everything he could to be a jerk. Contacting a GM just defaulted to them saying to blacklist him, ignorant of the extremes he continuously went to to make her game life hell.

Observing this experience pretty much solidified that behaviors in games are never policed to the extent they truly should be. The whole, "It's just a game!" line is certainly easy to hide behind, but as others have touched on, the elements of cyberbullying and cyberstalking are real. Said guy above also took to bombarding her livejournal when that was more of a thing, which obviously didn't help her overall disposition. To say no harm can ever comes to the person on the other end of the screen is incredibly bereft of empathy and quite laden with ignorance.

That said, it's not exactly a secret that RPers have and continue to be a marginalized lot within the MMO community. Some of it is because some people just don't get it. Some think it's a waste of time because it doesn't translate to statistical improvements to their character. Combat systems very rarely favor the concept of flavoring encounters in such a way, either. Finally, you'll get that group that thinks it's just fun to crash the party and be a nuisance, which isn't terribly far removed from people who think highbies ganking lowbies in PvP is A-OK. Just because a game technically allows something doesn't make it just. The relative lack of teeth to the blacklist option across so many MMOs also tends to send the message that the hosts care more about the money the offending party brings than meting out the proper restrictions or paying GMs to adequately investigate. It's also pretty telling seeing other players push that solution is to more or less just run and hide. Go to another zone. Take it to tells or party chat. Basically, do everything but be visible when they're doing nothing wrong. It feels pretty analogous to the whole "Did you see that dress she was wearing?" sort of victim blaming when time and time again it's the jerks and trolls not getting put in their place, and oftentimes (indirectly) encouraged.

I further imagine the above is quick to trigger those who love to play the snowflake card or eagerly go into some slippery slope strawman about how everyone can find everything offensive so may as well just ban everybody. Deep down, we know that's not what this about. We know people crap on RP. We know people turn a blind eye because they don't personally care. Still doesn't mean ruining a form of well-meaning entertainment is acceptable. I could say "you" could blacklist people who make giant text dumps in say. I could say "you" could filter out emotes so you don't see them in your log. I could say "you" could turn off certain sounds if you find them annoying. But that would certainly be inconvenient, wouldn't it? Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Saidosha

I further imagine the above is quick to trigger those who love to play the snowflake card or eagerly go into some slippery slope strawman about how everyone can find everything offensive so may as well just ban everybody. Deep down, we know that's not what this about. We know people crap on RP. We know people turn a blind eye because they don't personally care. Still doesn't mean ruining a form of well-meaning entertainment is acceptable. I could say "you" could blacklist people who make giant text dumps in say. I could say "you" could filter out emotes so you don't see them in your log. I could say "you" could turn off certain sounds if you find them annoying. But that would certainly be inconvenient, wouldn't it? Hmm...

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Apparently role players in a role playing game aren't real people.

I think if you want to make a difference, when it comes to cyberbullying within a game, then you have to put your money where your mouth is.

Saying mean things to people is not a crime, or at least it shouldn't be. I am a firm believer in freedom of speech and I count myself blessed to live in a country that protects free speech. I think people who harass others and call others names are certainly teetering on the edge of emotional terrorism, and while this may be considered morally wrong, it is (and should be) legally protected.

That being said, the private space owned SE (in this case FF14 game) has no obligation to protect free speech. They have rules to protect people from cyberbullying and all that goes along with that.

If you guys (general you) don't feel as if they are holding people to the ToS standards they have put in place, then it's time to stand up and let your actions speak for you. You want to make SE really hear what you are saying? Then hit their wallet hard. See about getting all RP'rs, or really anyone that is willing to get behind the cause, sign a petition and cancel their subscription. I guarantee that if SE loses a few ten-thousand subs they will pay more attention to what you guys are saying. The only way to make a big company really listen to you, is to mess with their money.

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Originally Posted by GothicDolly

Either the TOS needs to be revised, or a feature where causing a player's character to vanish locally on your end--once you blacklist them--needs to be implemented.


But another user should not be able to lessen the enjoyment of said game for another user out of spite.

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no no just no. I will not be subject to someone else's feeling of their Roleplaying emosion being interrupted. You are picking to Roleplay in the Gameworld and thus are subject to the people, players and npc's therein. Too much abuse would come of the change and IMO not worth the hassle of it all.

To the bolded, this goes both ways

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Originally Posted by Nomuno

no no just no. I will not be subject to someone else's feeling of their Roleplaying emosion being interrupted. You are picking to Roleplay in the Gameworld and thus are subject to the people, players and npc's therein. Too much abuse would come of the change and IMO not worth the hassle of it all.

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How would you know if someone did this though?

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Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo

If you guys (general you) don't feel as if they are holding people to the ToS standards they have put in place, then it's time to stand up and let your actions speak for you. You want to make SE really hear what you are saying? Then hit their wallet hard. See about getting all RP'rs, or really anyone that is willing to get behind the cause, sign a petition and cancel their subscription. I guarantee that if SE loses a few ten-thousand subs they will pay more attention to what you guys are saying. The only way to make a big company really listen to you, is to mess with their money.

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Protests sound nice in theory, but I can't ever really think of a time they've actually succeeded.

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Saying I don't understand RP is funny because I've been a P&P Roleplayer for almost 20 years.

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Then I would hope you understand the concept of consent is a valid part of the process and is a factor of RPing even outside of MMOs. People tend to have a general expectation of what they want out of an encounter when engaging. Sometimes things deviate from that mid-play, sure, but there's also a distinct difference between that and random outsiders just barging in and thinking they're helping.

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Originally Posted by Saidosha

Protests sound nice in theory, but I can't ever really think of a time they've actually succeeded.

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Boston tea party 1773, MLKJ 1963, Women's rights 1913, Monday demonstrations 1982-1989, Gandhi salt march 1930, LGBT rights 1993, protestant reformation 1517-1685, triangle shirtwaist fire protest 1911, abolishment of slavery in the US 1830-1865, anti war movement in US 1967-1972, the storming of bastille 1789

EDIT:

Also, even if I don't agree with the protest itself, if you want some examples against large companies: Ford/Toyata, 7-11, chick-fil-a, Hobby Lobby, Bank of Omaha, Apple, Dominos pizza, NCAA, Ben&Jerry ice cream, CVS all took big hits due to protests that hit their wallets and backed away from what they publicly supported. So yeah, while the effects may not be as immediate as what we want to see, protesting definitely works.

Every time a thread like this is made, people come out of the woodwork, who really need a talking to in basic human decency.

Getting a lot of milage out of my sig.

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Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo

Boston tea party 1773, MLKJ 1963, Women's rights 1913, Monday demonstrations 1982-1989, Gandhi salt march 1930, LGBT rights 1993, protestant reformation 1517-1685, triangle shirtwaist fire protest 1911, abolishment of slavery in the US 1830-1865, anti war movement in US 1967-1972, the storming of bastille 1789

EDIT:

Also, even if I don't agree with the protest itself, if you want some examples against large companies: Ford/Toyata, 7-11, chick-fil-a, Hobby Lobby, Bank of Omaha, Apple, Dominos pizza, NCAA, Ben&Jerry ice cream, CVS all took big hits due to protests that hit their wallets and backed away from what they publicly supported. So yeah, while the effects may not be as immediate as what we want to see, protesting definitely works.

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Was talking more about video games. Or heck, people being upset with Twitter's new layout.

Though, I certainly do wish there were certain RL issues where protests were more effective, but such is the times and this isn't really the place.

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Originally Posted by Gula

Apparently role players in a role playing game aren't real people.

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The roleplaying in a mmorpg emphasizes character advancement more than collaborative storytelling, like say your traditional tabletop rpg. It's like larping at a cosplay convention.

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

How tho? I mean, I have people I get along with in game, but frankly I couldnt care less what somewhat says or thinks about me. This is some serious soap opera shit. I'm not there to make friends for life, I have those outside of the game. If everyone on my friendslist decided to ignore me it'd be fine, I'll find other folks to play with.

Making yourself vulnerable for random bs of strangers on the web is a stupid thing to do. it's the internet. Don't get invested in people too much, don't trust people too much, don#t let people too close and don't disclose any personal information. Pretty simple.

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In a time where people find lovers in games should it really be surprising that the bad stuff can happen too? Its fine if you dont make friends ingame, I am also now in a duo FC with a real life friend because I was getting sick of the dramas and wanted my peace but I also have met a couple of players and do consider one of them a good friend which I even from time to time play stuff outside of FF14 or talk with him in voicechat. But because of my bad experiences (and being more careful about it anyway) I dont met him in real life but I still would count him as a friend.

MMOs are a place for people that might have problems in real life and those can easily become a victim to some really messed up people. And even "normal" players can become a victim too. And its really sad that there is no great way to block such people effectively ingame and if you dont have great evidence you cant even ban them. (But the person I mentioned in my posts before did get at least one ban so maybe thats the reason he later also changed DC)

Again Cyberbullying and Cyberstalking even exists as real terms. This is not some made up kindergarten drama. This can turn serious. And even if it might not be that bad with the OP (and hopefully never will) there still should be something in the game that stops that..but seemingly the devs thinks that its even fine that if you delete someone from your FL, that the person will still keep you on his..just change things like that and rework blacklists and the cases could at least be less.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, and I like to use gifs to show my emotion at certain statements, I don't think the emoticons portray it well enough.

Wait, he would follow people around and.... emote to them? The horror! We should call 911 on them right now! Lock them up, and throw away the key! He would go into other people's houses and..... stand next to them? Oh no! Holy guacamole!

I'm sorry, I just find this to be absolutely ridiculous to actually equate this with real life stalking, and label this person as a "predator". You realize how serious those crimes actually are in real life?

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And yet you dont take it serious at all. Yes its a horrible crime in real life and seeminlgy there is now even Cyberstalking on the internet too. People play games for very different reasons. Some play it to get away from life. They find a nice FC, make friends and suddenly one person turns out to be messed up. Bad things happens and they are kicked from the FC and then they start to harrass you. Follow you, emote to you, whisper to you. Constantly. And it does not stop with using their main but they are trying to put an alt character into the fc again to stir trouble up again. And then also use that alt to stalk, to emote, to whisper. Do you not see how these acts can harm someone emotional? And not only that, but stalking someone ingame, doing all that stuff to someone you dont even know yourself just for your own amusement shows imo a dangerous person. What if that online stalking turns to real life stalking?

Again those are only examples but in this day and age online and real life are not that easily seperated than one things. And it does not even have to be oneself that tells the person private information and suddenly this can turn ugly quite fast.

The OP thankfully is not at that part but they too feel like their fun is sucked out of the game thanks to this behavior, when they seemingly did nothing wrong. And all they want is a way to deal with this. Be it through ingame means like better blacklists or by being able to report them more easily for that. (And yes we already know that spamming emotes can be reported.)

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It's. a. game.

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With real people behind the characters. The ToS exists for a reason.

I mean what problem is there to be a decent human being? Why is it hard not to troll others or try to hurt them for someone own amusement? Honestly I feel more sad for people that do that, because I then wonder what happened in their lifes to make them that way.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Look, if someone is repeatedly harassing another to some actual degree to where the game experience is lessened I agree that a GM should step in if it is actually severe enough (the actually harassed). However, I think it is ridiculous and completely laughable that people are trying to equate these examples to real life stalking and labeling these people as "predators". Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. Being emoted at in a video game is nothing compared to the real life harm that an actual stalker, or predator can do. It trivializes real victims.

If being emoted at in a video game effects someone this severely emotionally, maybe they should turn off the game, or better yet get off the internet.

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I was one of those (and maybe the only one) that wrote the word predator. And you know why? Because the example that I brought was not just using emotes or followed people out of "fun" once or twice. It was a horrible person that did many things that are messed up imo. He went so far to make someone stop playing the game, made someone change servers. He did that to many people, especially females..trying to play nice, then flirt with them and if they did not accept that or want that, he would turn nasty. And its not even that he would stop after some time. No even months later he would start to communicate with some again. Try to slander these people and I do know one of them more and she was emotionally down. I am sorry this is dangerous and this is the actions of someone that does it again and again. He does it on purpose and with a tactic in mind so yes he is a predator to me.

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Originally Posted by GothicDolly

I am new to the forums and just forums in general. I hope this is the right place to post this. Do the devs even take suggestions from the forums? FFXIV is a huge game, and that makes this post a tad discouraging to even bother making.

Picture this: Two players are roleplaying at a table in the Quicksand. Then suddenly, a swarm of five or eight trolls who all know each other decide to swarm those two people. The swarm in question starts to pop fireworks, dance on top of those two people, spam their instruments/abilities, all in a effort to annoy the duo in question. No, turning off abilities and muting instruments isn't enough in this situation.

Can the two people move? Yes. Then they might be followed. Stalked. I've seen it happen. You shouldn't have to move from a spot you enjoy, in a game you enjoy, just because a couple of trolls decide to make it where you can barely see what's on your screen.

You might be saying...this all sounds like harassment. Just report them.

This is where the issue comes in.

If the trolls do not type, the mods have nothing to go off of. Why? Because FFXIV mods do not accept photographic evidence of harassment, or even video evidence I believe. This means a form of harassment or griefing can go unpunished due to being unreportable. Which isn't right.

Either the TOS needs to be revised, or a feature where causing a player's character to vanish locally on your end--once you blacklist them--needs to be implemented.

You might say it's just a game, and I agree.

But another user should not be able to lessen the enjoyment of said game for another user out of spite.

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That sucks but it would set a bad precedent. Imagine two people standing around anywhere and saying since they were there first anyone else around them doing anything is harassment. This likely why there isn't anything being done. That nobody has exclusive rights to anywhere in public areas.

This type of behavior is common in another MMO. And yet when people point this out, and the fact that the exodus from that MMO to FFXIV is causing an increase in problems here, they get dogpiled and told they're overreacting or being paranoid or "sho me evidunz!!!" While I don't want fewer players in FFXIV, I don't want a flood of players if it means the quality of the community is going to take a nose dive.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

This type of behavior is common in another MMO. And yet when people point this out, and the fact that the exodus from that MMO to FFXIV is causing an increase in problems here, they get dogpiled and told they're overreacting or being paranoid or "sho me evidunz!!!" While I don't want fewer players in FFXIV, I don't want a flood of players if it means the quality of the community is going to take a nose dive.

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There's always that one person in every thread "wow ppl bad, ffxiv ppl good!". People have been trolling in this game before the mass exodus from wow. In fact a large chunk of the player base were playing ffxiv and wow at the same time before that as well. Literally stop.

It's just interesting that some seem to find some moral equivalence between a possibly unintentionally annoying act like public RP versus jumping in someone's face to intentionally annoy them.

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Originally Posted by Machi_Machiavelli

The roleplaying in a mmorpg emphasizes character advancement more than collaborative storytelling, like say your traditional tabletop rpg. It's like larping at a cosplay convention.

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I know how RP works. It's simply a take on people's aversion to it. Just as Kingdom Hearts is an RPG, you don't RP as Sora. And I wouldn't compare it to larping- I get it, but co-op writing is as simple as one can define it, I'd say.

Also all the deleted posts ITT mods really went to town on this one.

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Originally Posted by GothicDolly

...If the trolls do not type, the mods have nothing to go off of. Why? Because FFXIV mods do not accept photographic evidence of harassment, or even video evidence I believe. This means a form of harassment or griefing can go unpunished due to being unreportable. Which isn't right.

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Rest easy... the GMs have certain tools they use to review all the happenstances in these types of cases... they won't need photographic or video evidence from the aggrieved party.

You don't own the Quicksand though. That's like one of the most public places in the entire game.