I never said FFXIV portrays women poorly. I literally said quite the opposite :) Just that like most things, it's mixedQuote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
Because we couldn't, and one may argue shouldn't, detach the social context from how a character is treated when it's so obvious male character absolutely would not be treated in the same way.Quote:
How about we look at them as characters and not as genders?
Why So Much Rape in Stormblood
Printable View
-
10-18-2017, 06:12 PMBillyKaplan
-
10-18-2017, 06:13 PMMoroMurasakiBeen keeping an eye on this thread for pages now and this is the most necessary sentence I've seen in a long time. All the upvotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
You can, many argue you should. This collectivist mindset is incredibly detrimental to any fictional medium including video games.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
-
10-18-2017, 06:15 PMNiravesHonestly this entire thread is dumb. Its a fictional character in a fictional world. Who cares? SHES NOT REAL. Its like... do you care when Spongebob gets hit by a bus? No. You don't. Cause Spongebob isn't real and it doesn't matter. End thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko
-
10-18-2017, 06:18 PMKokonoeAiyokoSo you're saying don't care about a story and its characters that's designed for you to be emotionally invested to, and kinda the whole point, because you specifically don't care at all? You then use SpongeBob as a comparison to a Final Fantasy story of all things. Okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niraves
-
10-18-2017, 06:20 PMNiravesI skip all the story because its stupid and the characters are dull. So no, I don't care. And frankly, the writers for this game could learn a few things from the writers for Spongebob.Quote:
Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko
-
10-18-2017, 06:21 PMBillyKaplanHow would you know if you skip all the story? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Niraves
-
10-18-2017, 06:25 PMNiravesTo be fair, I did read most of the ARR story. I didn't want to dismiss it without giving it a fair chance, but after 45 million fetch quests for Minfillia and her merry men, I was super bored with it. I've skimmed bits of the story since, but it's all pretty dull in my opinion. I know, I'm in the very very tiny minority there though, most people seem to adore the story in this for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
Different strokes, different folks. -
10-18-2017, 06:30 PMBourne_EndeavorYou said the opposite after providing examples that aren't related to the fridge trope this whole debate originated from. All three examples could be argued as bad characters, albeit subjectively. The fact they are women doesn't have any bearing. Or rather, it shouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
As Moro said, it's detrimental to focus on gender because it places an importance on something that, frankly, shouldn't matter. A good character is a good character first and their respective gender second. What matters is their personality, interests and how it relates to the story they're involved in. -
10-18-2017, 06:36 PMBillyKaplanAnd yet you're talking about something that has nothing to do with it. You can dislike a story while acknowledging that representation has an impact. People see themselves in the characters, and how the characters are portrayed and how they are treated for the various things they can represent - sexual orientations, gender identities, lived experience, medical and mental conditions, to name a few - can go as far as to save lives, or bring people to the brink of self harm if it's poor portrayal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niraves
Here is one of my favorite examples, taken out of the letters page of the 2005 run of Marvel's Young Avengers comic
https://image.prntscr.com/image/_UMT...12UGUXsdSw.png
I can respect it if you personally don't get so emotionally attached, least of all to a story you find lackluster. But don't tell people it's stupid to relate. -
10-18-2017, 06:45 PMBigRed5392Anita Sarkeesian (sp) made it her mission to point out all the "tropes" in gaming because "everything is racist, sexist" and i forget what else she stated. calling them out, saying they are bad. It is kinda annoying to go into gaming or play a game and ppl just point out the politics instead of "hmm is this a fun game" Like what the person I was commenting was doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko
Maybe read the full context of each of their posts (i replied to 1 in reference to all) instead of saying im doing "ignorant generalization", just tired of the "tropes are bad" and "men are sexist pigs" type commentary. context helps.
Im also tired of the victimhood complex of a few others, last i checked those who survive rape are survivors who should stand proud they survived something so horrible, instead of crying as a victim. -
10-18-2017, 08:09 PM-Teria-
Invaders rape the native women when attacking a country.
This has been a common practice throughout human history.
It isn't a nice thing. You may not like it (Nor should you like it), but that's human history.
It's realistic to portray the same thing in your fantasy setting. -
10-18-2017, 09:09 PMDelilyThe main thrust of Stormblood was us driving the Garlean occupation of 2 regions. Have you studied history in any form or fashion? Because conquering nations would often encourage and reward soldiers for raping the conquered. Not only did it demonstrate power over the nation, it gave the soldiers a reward, and it was drive out the native population. If anything, Game of Thrones is tame to what we've done to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmy_Dee
Beneath all the glamor, the lalas, and the moogles, the main story of the game is fairly brutal and morally grey. The Scions slaughter anyone who's tempered. We kill beastmen just to stop them from summoning primals. We've killed countless Garlean soldiers. May want to tune in a bit to the quests and cutscenes a bit. I mean, I'm a little astonished your main concern is rape when our character has basically committed genocide against the Garlean people.Quote:
Not only does it interfere with the escapist fantasy of FFXIV
-
10-18-2017, 09:58 PMVexander
I honestly felt like FFXIV has done a good job as far as using something as touchy as Rape in a narrative manner. I never felt it so much dismissed someone's actions, as it gave a whole new light to them. I think the best example is Yotsuyu, really. A lot of time when you hear about Rape, you imagine the victim as this broken, frightened individual, curled up in a corner, too afraid to open the curtains or answer the phone, but Yotsuyu shows us a different perspective, she showed us the FURY of someone who's had to deal with it, the pure, absolute hatred and desire for revenge. The sheer levels of ecstasy she took in the suffering of the people who let it happen to her, who didn't help her, was an eye-opening portrayal of the sheer levels of pain and anguish someone who's been through that goes through. Every act against a Doman was an expression of her trauma.
It's not nice.
It's not pretty.
But it was beautiful in its own way.
I think it may be one of the most powerful demonstrations of what it can do to a person, especially one who cannot find help. Yotsuyu was a victim. She succumbed to every negative emotion that came from the experience, and she became a terrible person because of it. That's not something we see a whole lot of outside of stories years down the road of the abuse women put their children through when that child was a product of rape. Like what Arenvald's mother did to him. Except in Yotsuyu's case, she didn't have a child to take it out on. She had a nation, the nation which was responsible for the act.
Not every victim of rape will process the trauma the same way, and how they cope and recover is largely dependent upon the support they have from others. Some will never want to see their rapist again, never want to think of them. Then there are those who WANT to see them again, and make them pay for ruining their life. I think it was well done how SE made that work.
In summary, I think Square has done a fantastic job handling such a touchy subject. It'd be as wrong to ignore it outright, as it would be to dismiss it as mere backstory. -
10-18-2017, 10:14 PMVayanne
FFXIV has done a very good job at portraying atrocities so far. It neither sweeps the issues under the rug, nor drowns us in gruesome images just to make us cringe in shock or disgust. It has the right mix to make us realize there are many terrible things we have to fight against without turning the setting into a dark, hopeless crapsack world.
The story of Griseldis from Ala Ghana is a good example. Every time I walk near her, the urge to give many Garleans the Holy treatment intensifies. -
10-18-2017, 10:44 PMYukiba
Lol.. people complain that there is too much rape particularly towards women and then say it needs to happen to men as well.. Good lord some of you people got some twisted logic.
-
10-18-2017, 10:59 PMVexanderTo be absolutely fair, in a fantasy setting, anything goes. If Square could make a compelling and interesting character out of a man who was raped, the same way they did for Yotsuyu, or incorporated it into Arenvald's backstory, then I'd say why not? Honestly, I would not be surprised if it was a Miqo'te either, men are treated like garbage in both societies honestly. For Sunseekers the sum total of who they are is literally defined by whether or not they get to sire children, and for Moonkeepers, men don't even have NAMES, just numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukiba
Though I do agree with the spirit of your reply, that adding male characters who were raped as some kind of arbitrary scorecard would be pretty terrible. FFXIV has done a good job of having a story where nothing is altogether superfluous. Every detail has a purpose to the plot. Nothing is included, 'Just because,' or due to a developer's personal, political, religious, or sexual crusade. Well, except maybe the disproportionate number of female exclusive transmogs, but we're talking story. -
10-19-2017, 02:17 AMSendohJinWe have nothing against Cid or Lucia, when you use the term arbitrarily it starts to become meaningless. have we even killed a single Garlean civilian?Quote:
Originally Posted by Delily
war =/= genocide. -
10-19-2017, 02:56 AMSpiritMuse
To be fair, rape-as-backstory is an overused plot. It's so often the go-to for giving a woman a Tragic Backstory that it's become stale and uninspired. And it's not often treated with the respect it should get - sometimes treated as "empowering" even.
That said, in FFXIV I haven't noticed a particular abundance of it, really. It's occurred, yes, but we've seen so many characters by now that it's bound to pop up here and there. -
10-19-2017, 03:04 AMVexanderI would ALMOST say Yotsuyu bordered on the, 'Rape is Empowering,' category. However, thankfully SE demonstrated quite the opposite. It didn't empower her, it utterly destroyed the person she could have been and turned her into a monster. She had a position of power for sure, but not due to the rape in her past. She herself was still quite weak when push came to shove, and very ineffective in combat and tactics.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritMuse
I'll be very curious to see where they go with her now. -
10-19-2017, 03:06 AMKerwin
Not just women. Don't be so close minded.
-
10-19-2017, 03:22 AMTheodricTechnically the Warrior of Light has abused his power for the sake of political gain and bias. Most of those slain are conscripts forced to fight in Garlemald's name...and then there's the additional complication of Garlemald rising to power because it's own people were persecuted and forced to live in a wasteland which only served to harden them. Cid and Lucia are also traitors who have defected and sold information that serves to get their former people killed. People who have friends and loved ones themselves. It's a cycle that needs to be broken and the protagonists are perpetuating it with their narrow, selfish viewpoints.Quote:
Originally Posted by SendohJin
-
10-19-2017, 03:26 AMTillieYIKESQuote:
Originally Posted by BigRed5392
/10char -
10-19-2017, 03:31 AMVexanderCall me crazy, but isn't ending the cycle something the Warrior of Light is actively doing? Pretty sure we just ended one. Thousand years of war... Dragons... Ishgard...Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
-
10-19-2017, 03:52 AMTheodricSort of - though it's in a very biased manner that priortises Eorzea and shows little regard for the nuances involved. In Garlemald's case the protagonists have shown a very troubling habit of relishing in slaughtering Garleans, even knowing many are conscripts or are simply following orders that they cannot refuse...then get outraged when their own allies end up being killed. Then again, the MSQ's like to ignore the existence of honourable Imperial Garleans such as Regula and Baut, instead hiding them away in side quests that many players likely will not see at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
Hopefully we'll see more inspiration taken from FFXII moving forward. That handled the whole 'Empire' trope incredibly well in terms of nuances and didn't embrace plot armour/plot convenience to make the antagonists seem incompetent either...but that's a subject for another thread. -
10-19-2017, 03:57 AMBillyKaplanWhat are you talking about? We had an actual scene, in the game, where your character shows hesitation because they could be fighting conscripted soldiers who want to have nothing to do with this war. The NPCs have to be talk you into fighting regardless because despite being conscripted they'll take you down if they can. There is no joy or relishing it, it's the cold reality of war. I have no idea where you got the impression anyone's enjoying themselves here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
-
10-19-2017, 04:04 AMTheodricI'm talking about the countless other times when that has not happened. People can brush it off as the cold reality of war all they want, though the protagonists are the aggressors as of Stormblood. Seeking to reclaim territory that has not been theirs for twenty five years. Zenos even openly denounced Garlemald towards the end of 4.0 and was clearly not serving the nation's interests but the protagonists continue to act like he was. As for 'enjoyment', the Warrior of Light and many of the protagonists frequently smile and nod enthusiastically when they're about to go slaughter Garleans, conscripts or otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
-
10-19-2017, 04:06 AMSendohJinused =/= abused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
the problem is with those doing the conscripting, it'll break as soon as the are removed from power.
so Zenos and Fordola didn't go to Rhalgar's Reach and kill Meffrid? Yotsuyu didn't go to Isari and kill a random villager? Get out of here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
-
10-19-2017, 04:12 AMTheodricYou're being deliberately deceptive, given that Baelsar's Wall was breached by the time Zenos and Fordola slew Meffrid. As for Yotsuyu, her actions in Isari were inexcusable, certainly, though the protagonists still slipped into the Far East with the intention of starting a rebellion, thus they are aggressors. Though it's clear by your tone that you're not really interested in a debate - and certainly not one involving the nuances of war. It's also distracting from the core topic itself, so we may as well agree to disagree. Or take it to the lore forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by SendohJin
-
10-19-2017, 04:15 AMBillyKaplanyou'd have a case with that if the people in the occupied territories were treated properly. But they weren't. They were abused and twisted and used as fodder for the Empire. Also, we never, ever acted on our own. We were brought into Ala Mhigo and its war by Ala Mhigan people. And that's before we remember that Ala Mhigo was occupied territory through which the Empire continued to threaten the rest of Eorzea. In Doma, we were brought in by Gosetsu and Yugiri and the Doman resistance. We helped Hien take back the country, we didn't do it for ourselves. For Ala Mhigo and Doma, like Eorzea, we ever were only weapons, we never decided to wage war for the sake of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
We were rejecting Zenos as the madman in power hellbent on continuing a war he was fighting for no better reason but the violence in it. He doesn't have to have sided with the Empire to be a threat. Or did you miss the part where he took control of Shinryu and we had to stop him?Quote:
Zenos even openly denounced Garlemald towards the end of 4.0 and was clearly not serving the nation's interests but the protagonists continue to act like he was.
No, they are encouraging those who send them off to battle and try to reassure them. In 4.1 alone it's established that everything we go through is pain and suffering and we are asked outright why we continue to do it. We don't enjoy what we do. But what do you want us to say? "Golly, Lyse, I sure will bleed and possibly die for your Ala Mhigo. There will be much bloodshed and destruction. Ok, I'm off. See you later. Maybe." ????????Quote:
As for 'enjoyment', the Warrior of Light and many of the protagonists frequently smile and nod enthusiastically when they're about to go slaughter Garleans, conscripts or otherwise.
-
10-19-2017, 04:18 AMSendohJin
the protagonists didn't instigate breaching Baelsar's Wall.
and you don't get to oppress the populace and complain about other people being the aggressors. -
10-19-2017, 04:22 AMVexander
Theodric isn't wrong to say that we, the Protagonists, the Warrior of Light, were an aggressive, invading force. While we can see ourselves as, 'Liberating,' these regions and ending the brutal tyranny the people within have been suffering since the occupations began (and made no mistake, those conscripts are as guilty of rape, theft, and violence as any Garlean is), the reality is that by that time an entire generation had been born into this, 'Occupation,' and had an entirely new way of life that we disrupted. Ultimately we invaded and conquered areas of the Garlean Empire. Even the Alliance acknowledges that in the beginning of the expansion and attempts to excuse their actions by only liberating Ala Mhigo with the support of the locals. Without local support, the Alliance would've been an invading force, and it knows it. It still was, arguably.
There isn't an excuse for Doma sadly. The people there did NOT want to be liberated. There was barely a resistance there, unlike Ala Mhigo which had multiple resistances. -
10-19-2017, 04:27 AMRymmOnly because the bulk of the rebels were slaughtered the last time they rose up against the Empire which happened offscreen sometime around the end of ARR storyline. Yugiri was introduced to the story when she led a bunch of the survivors and their families to Eorzea to escape the Empire's retaliation. Don't you remember Hien flat out saying he wouldn't rebel again unless his people wanted it? There was a part of the MSQ revolving around that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
Are you saying it's somehow alright for the Empire to seize control of a formerly independent territory as long as they kill everyone inside it who would even consider opposing them? -
10-19-2017, 04:51 AMVexanderI'm saying there is a point where a conquered territory becomes part of the nation which conquered it. When there is no will in the people left to resist, and they instead focus on acclimating to their new government, that would pretty much be the point I'm talking about. Doma hit that point. The refugees who came to Eorzea were among the last of those who resisted Garlemalde to restore Doma, and they didn't come to Eorzea to free it. They came to Eorzea as refugees looking for a new life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rymm
So, we entered Garlean territory and incited a rebellion amongst the local populace, bringing a wanted fugitive of the Empire into the conflict (Hien), as well as foreign forces to support the conquest (the Au Ra Tribes).
If you look at it impartially and without bias, we were an aggressive force this Expansion, certainly for Doma which the Eorzean Alliance didn't even formally support due to their efforts in Liberating Ala Mhigo, as well as logistic issues in sending enough manpower and resources so far, in a safe and timely manner. -
10-19-2017, 04:53 AMSendohJinConrad's forces is part of their way of life, we didn't create them by crossing the wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
and you're completely wrong on Doma like Rymm said. -
10-19-2017, 04:58 AMSendohJinYugiri and Gosetsu didn't hit that point. And The Confederacy just got pushed into it by Yotsuyu's new policies, who was the aggressor there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
-
10-19-2017, 05:35 AMVexanderAs I said, Ala Mhigo is a bit more gray. There were lots of resistance groups trying to resist the empire and free Ala Mhigo. However, even the Eorzean Alliance realized that they would basically be invading Garlemalde UNLESS they had the support of the native Ala Mhigans within the territory.Quote:
Originally Posted by SendohJin
Well, Yugiri wasn't originally Doman and even when Gosetsu came to get her to return to Doma, she was reluctant to abandon her duty to the people in Aldenard. As for Gosetsu, judging by the reactions of the people of Namai, he hadn't actually been in Doma very much since the prior rebellion was crushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SendohJin
By all accounts, we invaded Doma and incited the local forces, arguably against their will. We had to constantly twist the arm of the Confederates to get them to join the conflict. The Au Ra of the Azim Steppe didn't want anything to do with it. In the end we ultimately succeeded, and did a lot of good in the process, but objectively speaking, we invaded the Empire and incited a rebellion within their borders. -
10-19-2017, 05:46 AMWelsper59I think you're looking at the situation too passively. You're ignoring the fact that the Garleans are active conquerors, in that they have been trying to take over everywhere (and clearly, being under their rule isn't pleasant). You and the alliance stand in defiance to their invasion and continuous rise in power. The overall goal is to stop them, and given the development of the MSQ, of course we're an invading force. I think that much was set in stone. It has to happen to achieve that goal... or do you think negotiations work to such massive degrees in this fictional world?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
In the end, you're not wrong, but the way you paint the picture is extremely biased, despite you claiming otherwise. Just as how laws work in the real world, there is always a factor based on intent. It's supposed peace and freedom vs dictatorship and slavery. Both sides will see the other as an invading force... so what then? Garlemald will not stop their attempts to kill you and take over your lands. The MSQ oozes the concept of fighting for survival and ultimately peace when it comes to taking the fight to them (i.e. invasion). -
10-19-2017, 06:09 AMVexanderI'm not ignoring the fact that the Garleans are active Conquerors at all. However, the active goal in the MSQ is not stopping the Garleans. The very purpose of the Eorzean Alliance is as a defensive coalition of nations that protect themselves and one another from being invaded and conquered. The Alliance itself explicitly states it will not engage in Conquest. With that, it is impossible for the Alliance to ever truly dismantle Garlemald. The most it can do is to liberate conquered territories when approached by the resisting locals for support. Theoretically, we could continuously dismantle the Empire, one territory at a time, until all that is left is the original land the Garlean Republic was built upon. At that point, what do we do? No doubt Square will give us sympathetic Garleans besides just Cid, whom we will then support to, 'Reclaim,' the Republic or such, even that, however, will be breaching an entirely different beast, because the Garleans willingly became an Empire. At that point we're supporting a rebellion rather than a resistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsper59
At the end of the day is that what we do is right from a moral and ethical perspective. Our methods may not be perfect all the time (coercing the Confederates and dragging the Azim Steppes into a war), but we do more good than ill. My point is that Invasion was the proper course of action, but it is still an invasion. People will shun from the word because of negative connotations associated with it, but that doesn't change the fact it is what it is. -
10-19-2017, 07:33 AMSendohJinWho is "we"? The Eorzean Alliance did not invade Doma. it's 4 people that engaged in espionage (the WoL, Lyse and the twins), only one of which has part time status in the Grand Companies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
the forces that led to the fall of Doma
- Hien's Au Ra mercenaries
- the Blue Kojin
- the Confederacy
- the native Domans
you can say we were like the CIA and incited a 2nd rebellion that otherwise never would have occurred but there was no invasion. you can't invade a country with 4 people, that's called infiltration.
and not a single one of the 4 people stayed to remain as leaders of an occupying force. the only invaders here were the Garleans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
Shouldn't there be a point where someone is originally from doesn't matter as much as where they actually spill their blood for?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
-
10-19-2017, 07:42 AMBillyKaplanOf a nation all the sympathetic characters belonging to are opposing. Lucia defected. Cid defected. If you played through the new raid's quest you'll see two things: 1. there are voices within the Empire calling for a different direction, 2. those voices are being oppressed and silenced by the current ruler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander
When you take such things into consideration, coupled with the fact that most likely, yes, we will be given factions within the Empire to take over once we're done breaking it, does it really matter what you call it, compared to the end result? The Empire is evil, portrayed as nothing but, not only to the people it occupies, but also its own citizenry. Why not start a rebellion?