"Pull Everything" in Dungeon Parties

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Originally Posted by Roegan

Yes I feel like most of this thread is working under the assumption that groups don't talk to each other? Maybe its an EU thing but i'd say 95% of my groups say Hi at the start, and if theres ever been a pacing issue people will say in chat "can you go faster/slow down", never seen a tank not say "ok" when asked either thing either. Its almost as if communication helps resolve issues :O

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That's the thing I run into, people NOT communicating. I admit I'm not the best at communicating, but I do respond when someone says something that needs input.

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Originally Posted by Roegan

Yes I feel like most of this thread is working under the assumption that groups don't talk to each other? Maybe its an EU thing but i'd say 95% of my groups say Hi at the start, and if theres ever been a pacing issue people will say in chat "can you go faster/slow down", never seen a tank not say "ok" when asked either thing either. Its almost as if communication helps resolve issues :O

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Happens to often that if you ask for big pulls/ small pulls/Aoe damage/ A specific skill ect. ect. you get answered your not paying their sub ect. ect. So better say the least possible and get it done.

I have no problem what pace the tank chooses when I'm healing if they respect my limitation. I'm all up for big pulls but if we wipe, tone it down. Also, if they are new, learn the layout before you mass pull. Had a new tank pull the 3 walls and the 4 previous adds right before Bardam 1st boss. He then proceeded in pointing the aoes at the party.

However, I also ran across a few tanks who were not new who had no business pulling mass pulls and it wiped us and caused some stressful situations. A prime example was yesterday when i had a tank who had the same amount of hp as the dps.

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Originally Posted by Roegan

Yes I feel like most of this thread is working under the assumption that groups don't talk to each other? Maybe its an EU thing but i'd say 95% of my groups say Hi at the start, and if theres ever been a pacing issue people will say in chat "can you go faster/slow down", never seen a tank not say "ok" when asked either thing either. Its almost as if communication helps resolve issues :O

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I am reminded of a great line (about the importance of communication) in a book by Douglas Adams;

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"We'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent lifeforms everywhere and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys."
- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

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Who has the most experience and knowledge of what the tank can handle? That's right, the tank. They know their item level, their available cooldowns during each pull, their chosen role skills and how well they handle the job and role at that moment in time. Moreover, pulls are the easiest to execute for everyone involved when tank gets to engage enemies first.

For the above reasons only the tanks should do the pulling. Let the tank do their job. Let the new tank practice every aspect of the role including judging the group's abilities and engaging enemies. Overpulling and wiping is not the only way to get better. The tank might have a pretty good idea of the right pull size without needing to prove everyone else in the party wrong and adding to the repair bill. If you have a problem with the speed, speak, and the tank will most likely consider it. However, the tank is most suited person to estimate appropriate pulls so their vote should obviously weigh more than other party members' votes when it comes to pull size. Don't get petty if you don't get your way. You can always play as tank if you really need to lead the group.

If you are a tank pace yourself slowly if you or you're healer is new, but if noone is new just say hey I'm pulling big Is that fine and most of the time the healer will say yes unless you're a WAR lol jk

Also I haven't seen dps pull since early HW but I am very guilty of the pulling as a healer because I also tank and it makes me mad when a fully geared tank pulls like 3mobs lol like are you serious! I am going to make you earn that cracked cluster cookie lol but I definitely need to work on letting the tank be bad or good instead of critiquing them :( sorry

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Originally Posted by Avatre

That's the thing I run into, people NOT communicating. I admit I'm not the best at communicating, but I do respond when someone says something that needs input.

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Originally Posted by Laladyn

Happens to often that if you ask for big pulls/ small pulls/Aoe damage/ A specific skill ect. ect. you get answered your not paying their sub ect. ect. So better say the least possible and get it done.

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As I said maybe its different on EU. Everyone here seems really nice. I've only had it happen one time I was healing and tank did huuuuuuuuuuge pulls and would go from like 100% HP to 10% straight away. We kept wiping I asked him to pull less but he just told me "I main AST you should be able to handle it". Any other time I've struggled and asked them to slow down they just say its fine and do so. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

If you are a tank pace yourself slowly if you or you're healer is new, but if noone is new just say hey I'm pulling big Is that fine and most of the time the healer will say yes unless you're a WAR lol jk

Also I haven't seen dps pull since early HW but I am very guilty of the pulling as a healer because I also tank and it makes me mad when a fully geared tank pulls like 3mobs lol like are you serious! I am going to make you earn that cracked cluster cookie lol but I definitely need to work on letting the tank be bad or good instead of critiquing them :( sorry

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Nearing the end of HW, shortly after Dun Scaith was released, I had healers and DPS starting the pull in Dun Scaith. Some even doing the countdown(no ready check). I normally wouldn't have a problem with it, but when someone is explaining mechanics to the new person, you let that happen. It wasn't even party chat, it was alliance chat.

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Originally Posted by Roegan

As I said maybe its different on EU. Everyone here seems really nice. I've only had it happen one time I was healing and tank did huuuuuuuuuuge pulls and would go from like 100% HP to 10% straight away. We kept wiping I asked him to pull less but he just told me "I main AST you should be able to handle it". Any other time I've struggled and asked them to slow down they just say its fine and do so. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Yeah, you run into all kinds no matter what server/data center you're on. Some people are really nice and accommodating, others are like my example above.

Last Sirensong Sea that I tanked, one of the dps spontaneously decided to pull the back half of that prison area after the second boss. Nothing said before hand, and I'm a bit of a doormat so I said nothing, just started keeping a closer eye on my cooldowns. The healer kept up like a champ, and no drama was had.

They could have spoken up, but for all I knew they were friends with the healer in a voice chat or something.

At least they didnt harp on me.

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Originally Posted by eaudaemon

Lol, I just found a thread on the Wow forums that is just like this one, DPS pulling is not just an issue on this game it seems

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oh, yuck ><; it's sad that that mentality is starting to get into older games. Back in my day, you stuck to your role or you got kicked. Granted, back then, roles were more strict. I mained mages mostly and in some of the games, if you got dumb and pulled ahead of the tank, you knew it was your fault because you were the glass cannon and no amount of blaming the tank would erase the fact that you shouldn't be facerolling the mobs.

I tend to try to get around 2-3 pulls to get to the boss assuming I have good aoe. However, if I see the healer is just standing there not doing anything when I'm not taking damage then I'm going to put them to work and start pulling more if they don't want to help clear trash. The way I see it if a healer wants to just heal then that's what they're going to do with heavy pulls. As for dpsing pulling ahead of me (which I haven't seen happen yet) I'll pick it up from them. It's not like an extra 2-3 mobs will change anything. Now if we're lacking in the aoe then I'll just tell them to watch out and if we have massive aoe then that's good.

If you aren't comfortable tanking, then don't tank. As tank your job is to keep threat and also do your best to mitigate incoming damage. Only pulling 3 measly mobs who hit like wet noodles is the equivalent of a DPS just auto attacking. It wastes everyone's time and just makes you a baddie. I've pulled for tanks plenty as DPS, and if one refuses to do their job because of it then I just vote kick them. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

If you aren't comfortable tanking, then don't tank. As tank your job is to keep threat and also do your best to mitigate incoming damage. Only pulling 3 measly mobs who hit like wet noodles is the equivalent of a DPS just auto attacking. It wastes everyone's time and just makes you a baddie. I've pulled for tanks plenty as DPS, and if one refuses to do their job because of it then I just vote kick them. Problem solved.

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Seems more like vote kicking you would be problem solved. Some people wonder where the salt in such discussions comes from, I give you exhibit A.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Seems more like vote kicking you would be problem solved. Some people wonder where the salt in such discussions comes from, I give you exhibit A.

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Except I don't get vote kicked. Believe it or not, most healers/dps want big pulls. :>

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

If you aren't comfortable tanking, then don't tank. As tank your job is to keep threat and also do your best to mitigate incoming damage. Only pulling 3 measly mobs who hit like wet noodles is the equivalent of a DPS just auto attacking. It wastes everyone's time and just makes you a baddie. I've pulled for tanks plenty as DPS, and if one refuses to do their job because of it then I just vote kick them. Problem solved.

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Spamming aoes to maintain hate isn't exactly hard either. The healer is the one that does all the work in big pulls. You can tell the quality of a healer by how big of a pull they can handle.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Spamming aoes to maintain hate isn't exactly hard either. The healer is the one that does all the work in big pulls. You can tell the quality of a healer by how big of a pull they can handle.

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Pretty much. Tanks just need to stop crying when their party asks them to make bigger pulls. Spam your AoE threat builder, get out of AoE's, and space out your cooldowns in an intelligent manner and let your party utilize the tools they enjoy utilizing to get the job done.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - everyone is replaceable.

If the majority of the party decides that something isn't working out - be it big pulls or small pulls, you can have a discussion about how things are going. If the group can't reach an amicable decision, then that's the point at which you might want to entertain the idea of kicking the dissenting opinion.

As a few others have mentioned, you can't improve if you don't push your limits. As a healer, mass pulls used to give me a lot of anxiety, but nowadays, I love them. Single pulls tend to be very disappointing, if anything.

I'm not a big fan of calling people entitled, but there seem to be some very self-righteous tanks in this thread.

No. /10char

People in groups are stupid. Really, really stupid. As individuals, we're okay, but put us in a group setting, and a lot of us will cross the invisible threshold and become impatient assholes who will treat a stranger in a manner that we'd never treat a friend. It's the human condition.

Something that needs to be considered, is that duty finder is a cesspool of anti-social, and maladjusted loners who are forced to use it because they can't make friends with other people, or they're hated by their free companies. People like that are incapable of basic politeness, and tactful decision making.

I take my cue from the tank. If dps pulls for them and they peel, I heal the puller. If the tank doesn't take threat, I let the dps die. First couple of oops I will raise them and ask them not to put stress on our party by doing what they did. After that, they get to do the walk of shame back. There's no point in my getting aggro and dying and causing a party wipe when we can just let one dps die and move on.

It would be nice if the tank would confirm big pulls were okay. Most don't even wait for Protect.

When I heal I have started to hold onto Boles more then Balances unless I know that the boss is coming up soon. The reason being that a tank can pull a bigger pull when they got a bole on them, especially an enhanced bole when I got Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition up. Also if they happen to do a much bigger pull then normal I can regen stack, throw a (hopefully) enhanced bole on them and they should be ok.

When I am tanking I try to pay attention to how effective my DPS and healer are on the early pulls, which will be small pulls. If the mobs are dying quick and the healer is spending more time DPSing then healing I will go and start grabbing an extra pack unless the party comp does not lend itself well to AoE. Cause when you got a party comp better suited to single target death then small pulls is more time efficient then large pulls.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

People in groups are stupid. Really, really stupid. As individuals, we're okay, but put us in a group setting, and a lot of us will cross the invisible threshold and become impatient assholes who will treat a stranger in a manner that we'd never treat a friend. It's the human condition.

Something that needs to be considered, is that duty finder is a cesspool of anti-social, and maladjusted loners who are forced to use it because they can't make friends with other people, or they're hated by their free companies. People like that are incapable of basic politeness, and tactful decision making.

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I'd say it's more full of bad players who want to excuse being bad instead of actually work to improve. But hey, if they're so good at making friends, then maybe they can just queue with their other bad friends and stay out of duty finder. Then they can enjoy their forever long dungeon runs without any complaints.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

I'd say it's more full of bad players who want to excuse being bad instead of actually work to improve. But hey, if they're so good at making friends, then maybe they can just queue with their other bad friends and stay out of duty finder. Then they can enjoy their forever long dungeon runs without any complaints.

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Just want to make a comment about your constant assertions that others are "bad players", "bad" or "baddies".

Guilty dog barks first, and you're barking a lot.

I don't mind them but I've had to pop all my CDs to keep a tank alive while they're pulling everything and sometimes they just die anyways. And you know what they say? 'Oh, I should have asked if you were comfortable with bill pulls, sorry'. Oh really, how about you get comfortable with them first aka at least mitigate enough damage? Oh and evade AoEs while you're at it, don't just stand there eating everything.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

People in groups are stupid. Really, really stupid. As individuals, we're okay, but put us in a group setting, and a lot of us will cross the invisible threshold and become impatient assholes who will treat a stranger in a manner that we'd never treat a friend. It's the human condition.

Something that needs to be considered, is that duty finder is a cesspool of anti-social, and maladjusted loners who are forced to use it because they can't make friends with other people, or they're hated by their free companies. People like that are incapable of basic politeness, and tactful decision making.

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Case in point, the underscored emphasized by the bolded.

I use DF because I don't want to wait 15minutes for a complete Light Party to queue up(yes, it does take some people that long from when the party is full for the roulettes to start the queue) that some of my FC members take. I run them right away so that I can do other things, and help people in the FC if they ask for it. Don't generalize all DF people as what YOU think they are.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Just want to make a comment about your constant assertions that others are "bad players", "bad" or "baddies".

Guilty dog barks first, and you're barking a lot.

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I don't know anything about Kanzer's skill, but what I do know is that there are a lot of really terrible players here on the OF that go on and on about how their way is superior when it is just objectively incorrect.

So...there's just a lot of "barking" in general.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Just want to make a comment about your constant assertions that others are "bad players", "bad" or "baddies".

Guilty dog barks first, and you're barking a lot.

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Useless comment that has nothing to do with the discussion actually going on. Though I can't say I'm surprised. Ruff. :>

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Originally Posted by missybee

I don't know anything about Kanzer's skill, but what I do know is that there are a lot of really terrible players here on the OF that go on and on about how their way is superior when it is just objectively incorrect.

So...there's just a lot of "barking" in general.

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And when you try to tell them their way is incorrect and actually show evidence of it, you're just being 'toxic'.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Case in point, the underscored emphasized by the bolded.

I use DF because I don't want to wait 15minutes for a complete Light Party to queue up(yes, it does take some people that long from when the party is full for the roulettes to start the queue) that some of my FC members take. I run them right away so that I can do other things, and help people in the FC if they ask for it. Don't generalize all DF people as what YOU think they are.

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I wrote "a lot of us", not "all of us." I often say one good party makes up for ten bad ones. Don't take it as an attack on your character if I notice that the majority of pugs are comprised of jackasses. I'm closing in on 3,000 dungeons tanked, so while my opinion may be arbitrary, it's also informed by solid experience.

when I play as tank, if I see someone pulling stuff ahead of me I simply stop using AoE skills. It's actually funny seeing the poor fellow come to the realization that I won't pull aggro off of him after a while then running around desperately trying to loose the mobs LOL

I have no qualms DPSing as a tank if a DPS wants to pull more. Shirk exists as a reason to help the tank hold hate, and should a DPS decide they're gonna play tank, then I'll be the best OT I can. :3 After all, knowing how to OT is part of being a tank!

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Originally Posted by missybee

I don't know anything about Kanzer's skill, but what I do know is that there are a lot of really terrible players here on the OF that go on and on about how their way is superior when it is just objectively incorrect.

So...there's just a lot of "barking" in general.

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If you mean there is a wide variation in skill, sure, but people who can't resist calling other players names like 'bads' and 'baddies' are in their own little niche of skill. I don't care about their in-game skill, the skill I refer to is the ability to annoy and offend others.

Regardless of the amount of barking, the guilty dog still barks first.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Useless comment that has nothing to do with the discussion actually going on. Though I can't say I'm surprised. Ruff. :>

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It's very relevant given the way you appear to deliberately offend others with the way you characterize players. You're so quick to point fingers at others, I have to wonder whether you might be trying to distract attention from something else.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

And when you try to tell them their way is incorrect and actually show evidence of it, you're just being 'toxic'.

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Whether you're called 'toxic' or not has a lot more to do with *how* you convey your message than it does your message. Considering the posts of yours that I have replied to here, I am not surprised at all that people might consider you to be toxic, not because of the message you are trying to deliver, but the way in which you deliver it. If you lace your message with insults, calling others bad or lazy, how do you think your message will be received?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

It's very relevant given the way you appear to deliberately offend others with the way you characterize players. You're so quick to point fingers at others, I have to wonder whether you might be trying to distract attention from something else.




Whether you're called 'toxic' or not has a lot more to do with *how* you convey your message than it does your message. Considering the posts of yours that I have replied to here, I am not surprised at all that people might consider you to be toxic, not because of the message you are trying to deliver, but the way in which you deliver it. If you lace your message with insults, calling others bad or lazy, how do you think your message will be received?

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Life's too short to always be worried about 'how' you're conveying your message. Besides, the guys talking about how they'd deliberately wipe a group because they're mad at a DPS pulling some extra mobs don't seem too concerned with how their message is conveyed. Lack of skill mixed with that kind of attitude indeed makes you a baddie. And that's the exactly the type of person I'm addressing. Are you that type of person? If so, guess what that makes you?

That's a false equivalency, Kanzer. You're equating lack of experience with lack of skill. No two people learn at the same rate. Your mentaliity of sink or swim might produce short-term gains in the form of finishing the dungeon faster, but it's bad in the long run if your actions cause a frustrated and embarrassed tank to stop wanting to play. Future groups are impacted by that. A little patience can go a long way.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

Are you that type of person? If so, guess what that makes you?

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If you read my posts here you know what kind of person I am, and no, I wouldn't wipe a group or let a party member die on purpose. I'm a tank, tanks don't do that.

You say life is to short for niceties, except you were the one bemoaning being called toxic. If your own conduct leads to you being called toxic, then modify your behavior, or stop complaining about it.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

If you read my posts here you know what kind of person I am, and no, I wouldn't wipe a group or let a party member die on purpose. I'm a tank, tanks don't do that.

You say life is to short for niceties, except you were the one bemoaning being called toxic. If your own conduct leads to you being called toxic, then modify your behavior, or stop complaining about it.

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You know they have a quote feature, you can actually use it instead of making up your own interpretations of what I actually said. In fact, I'd recommend going back and taking a look, might be good for your reading comprehension.

Good, I'm glad you're not that type of person. Because if the healer and DPS want bigger pulls, and you aren't delivering, chances are one of them will deliver for you. (Yep, I've seen healers pull too, they're my favorites.)

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

That's a false equivalency, Kanzer. You're equating lack of experience with lack of skill. No two people learn at the same rate. Your mentaliity of sink or swim might produce short-term gains in the form of finishing the dungeon faster, but it's bad in the long run if your actions cause a frustrated and embarrassed tank to stop wanting to play. Future groups are impacted by that. A little patience can go a long way.

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I have no issues with someone who has a desire to get better. I'm referring to the ones who are fine with performing terribly and then get angry with people who don't accept that that's just the way they want to be. No false equivalency here, no misunderstanding of what's what.

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Originally Posted by Kanzer

I have no issues with someone who has a desire to get better. I'm referring to the ones who are fine with performing terribly and then get angry with people who don't accept that that's just the way they want to be. No false equivalency here, no misunderstanding of what's what.

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I always seek to improve myself, but guess who I don't go to for help? The person whining and moaning and calling people "baddies" and spitting their dummy out.

This happened to me about a month ago. I was tanking a roulette, (I can't remember which dungeon, but it was fairly low level), and there was a DRG who kept running in front of me to pull. After the first time I asked them not to do it again. Then they did it a second time. Exasperated, I told them to please stop. When I saw them about to do it a third time I yelled in all bold "STOP!" They actually froze. I told them I would let them die if they attacked, and the healer backed me up. I told them to get behind me and stay there. And they did.

I've been running into this a lot recently in my roulettes, more so than I can remember it happening in the past. DPS or healers just running off to pull more in the middle of a fight, sprinting past me to pull the next group, etc.

I have no problems with and prefer big to huge pulls IF the group can handle them.

If the healer can't heal through huge groups while I am popping CD's like a madman, then don't pull for me.
If the DPS can't handle burning down a large group in a timely manner because they don't have the gear or just don't know how to AoE properly, don't pull for me.
If people are single targeting separate mobs in large packs, screwing group dps and agro management (seriously why does this happen), don't pull for me.

In fact, just don't pull for me, the tank. If you want big pulls just say so and I will. If we can't handle them, then accept it when I dial it back.

Also realize that if we are in DF and you say nothing when we zone in, I may do a smaller first pull to gauge party ability and then adjust from there depending on results from that first pull.

Being impatient and causing wipes or other screw ups just slows the run down, it doesn't speed it up.

Lastly, if I am doing a big pull don't start going all out on a single mob in the middle of the pull, DoTs and instants are fine, and if you pull agro on something in the middle of a big pull don't stop and start fighting it, just keep running and stack on me when we stop and I'll grab them off you.