DPS obsession in farm groups

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

On the subject of Zurvan, I should point out, you know, what Zurvan is ACTUALLY for: getting a high-level weapon. Not everyone who farms Zurvan are farming A12S as well - they want to down him for a chance at a weapon, and could care less about birds.

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Why would you ever farm a primal for a weapon when the most broken weapon is casual-friendly ? (talking about the relic)

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

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While I agree with some players the motive behind wanting to skip Soar is because they can't do the mechanic, the prevailing reason is that not skipping Soar is a huge visual indication of bad performing DPS, since the requirement to skip it isn't that high. The issue is, the type of people who got away with not bothering to learn their openers (or their Job) properly in previous trials are now put on the spot because a good opener is practically the difference between seeing Soar and avoiding it entirely. Even worse is when you have 5-6 DPS and you still see it, so you're basically putting the burden on the single Tank and Healers, with no benefit of getting a faster clear (i.e. the intent behind having extra DPS to begin with) anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mature

In party's I've been usually IS the high dps making the "easy" mistakes. Due to the fact the become over confident about the fight that they just don't care.

Plus at the end of the day mechanics is what define the outcome. Once you have the mechanics of the fight sorted the DPS will come into play.

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Just to play devil's advocate, soar isn't explicitly a "you died because you messed up" mechanic. You could be exactly where you're supposed to be - but if someone else is out of place, they can kill you. That's why people try to skip it and minimize the chance of someone in the party messing it up.

I've had a dps drop from a farm party because it was too casual for him. Even though we were actually farming Zurvan EX.
He should be happy that this group was farming and not wiping.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Why would you ever farm a primal for a weapon when the most broken weapon is casual-friendly ? (talking about the relic)

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Because some people, including me, aren't willing to do more than 1 relic xD.

People saying how handling mechs is more important than skipping soar... except there are no mechanics at all until soar. there is no healing to be done either.

is not standing inside an aoe fire circle considered a mech now lol

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

People saying how handling mechs is more important than skipping soar... except there are no mechanics at all until soar. there is no healing to be done either.

is not standing inside an aoe fire circle considered a mech now lol

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It is a mechanic and it's even a mechanic people can't do properly. Cos stacking and baiting those circles is omg so difficult...

And its funny cos something this simple can be why you don't skip soar cos the dps are out of range to hit the boss for several gcds.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Why would you ever farm a primal for a weapon when the most broken weapon is casual-friendly ? (talking about the relic)

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The time sink grind behind the relic makes it very much not casual.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

And that's where this comes to a head: skipping soar doesn't require top DPS. It requires a proper opener. That's about it.

It's a way of gauging the group DPS immediately, without needing to go through a whole run to see if you're up to snuff.

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The requirement to skip a mechanic shouldn't be on the friggin floor. This is why Zurvan is a trash fight. For a phase skip done right, look at A11S and Lapis Lazuli. That one requires everyone to be on their A game, as well as a bit of planning. Sophia has a decent one to a lesser extent (skipping a quasar if pushed to 75% before adds) but that one gets chaotic if you don't see it coming.

I'm hoping Zurvan is the last floor level phase skip we see so that people learn how to actually do mechanics

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Why would you ever farm a primal for a weapon when the most broken weapon is casual-friendly ? (talking about the relic)

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Anyone who thinks that relic weapons are for casual players has no idea what they're talking about. While the content required is casual enough, the quantity required of that content puts it WELL outside the capabilities of a casual player.

If you think a player new to endgame - even a player who is NOT casual - can obtain a relic weapon in less time than they can acquire a Zurvan weapon, you are dreaming. Well, again, assuming that the player isn't constantly booted from every farm party because his gear isn't high enough to put out the DPS they want.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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This level of assumptions reached over 9000.

Im sorry to actually bright light to your logic but when you have access to the most broken weapong by farming casual/faceroll content it's just a casual-friendly weapon.
Plus you don't need that much time to get it on the new steps since they nerfed the 80 HQ items, the oils and the umbrites.
AS1 is a faceroll farm now, just need some time to do it and the 275 step is a joke.

So yeah, it's a broken casual-friendly weapon. Don't bring the time argument, it's absolutely normal to spend a little bit of time to get the most powerfull weapon in the game.
But hey, i've just got 3 of them i've probably no idea what im talking about LUL.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

So yeah, it's a broken casual-friendly weapon. Don't bring the time argument, it's absolutely normal to spend a little bit of time to get the most powerfull weapon in the game.
But hey, i've just got 3 of them i've probably no idea what im talking about LUL.

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We're not talking about a "little" bit of time to do the relic steps pre-nerf. We're talking a dedicated time consuming grind. It doesn't matter if the content is easy if it requires daily dedicated grinding for an extended period of time - that's not casual. You can try to ignore the time argument all you want, but time is a key metric for something to actually be casual.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

but if you just label your group "Farm Party" don't assume you'll be skipping Soar, even if you have five DPS.

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For clarification, the 5 DPS party I was in had NIN (~70 percentile, i270 weapon), me on DRG (~55 percentile, i260), 2 other DRGs (i260 and i270), and a BLM (i260 I believe). Yes, I agree that soar skipping is not a given due to 5 DPS.. But to see demon claw for losing healer DPS with decently geared players is sad. :v

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Originally Posted by Watachy

ThisSo yeah, it's a broken casual-friendly weapon. Don't bring the time argument, it's absolutely normal to spend a little bit of time to get the most powerfull weapon in the game.
But hey, i've just got 3 of them i've probably no idea what im talking about LUL.

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Casual does not mean you stick to only the easiest content in the game. Casual means that you don't spend a lot of time playing the game (which often leads to sticking to the easiest content, but doesn't have to mean that). Casual players I know log on to the game MAYBE two or three evenings per week, and certainly wouldn't spend what little time they're able to play grinding out a relic - not when there's so many things to do in the game that AREN'T an aggravating and boring grind. No, players that have relic weapons spend a lot of time in-game - likely several hours every night. That is by no means casual play.

The casual players I hang out with do like to challenge endgame activities such as Alexander and Ex Primals - but typically aren't able to defeat these encounters until a patch or two after they're added, due to the fact that even things as supposedly casual as capping tomestones every week is a pipe dream, and their gear tends to be way behind the level expected for these encounters.

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Originally Posted by raela

For clarification, the 5 DPS party I was in had NIN (~70 percentile, i270 weapon), me on DRG (~55 percentile, i260), 2 other DRGs (i260 and i270), and a BLM (i260 I believe). Yes, I agree that soar skipping is not a given due to 5 DPS.. But to see demon claw for losing healer DPS with decently geared players is sad. :v

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As a point of interest, while I and my extremely casual static party were practicing this fight, we practiced it solo-tank so the healers could practice the healing involved in keeping a solo tank alive during the add phase. Since we were new to the fight and (being casual) most of us BARELY met the ilvl 250 entry requirements, and often one or two of us were dead to Soar, we'd frequently have to deal with Demon's Claw in our early days of practice. We found that BLM actually makes a surprisingly good "off-tank" for Wave Cannon - with Manaward, Stoneskin, and SCH/AST shields, the BLM would survive Wave Cannon (and if they did die, Umbral Ice allowed them to recover their DPS resources almost instantly after the rez).

The dps obsession is the result of have removed punishment for dps "too much" and party wiped for eating more mechanics at same time, dps will never learn to hold the trigger so SE adjusted to them. Now mechanics are skipped, and raiding become a dps gimmick.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Im sorry to actually bright light to your logic but when you have access to the most broken weapong by farming casual/faceroll content it's just a casual-friendly weapon.[...]

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Yes, I see how this can be upsetting especially if you are used to run instant gratification content like Savage (clear? good job! here's your loot!). Oh wait.. you actually have a few of these too..

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Originally Posted by Cordie

instant gratification content like Savage

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Whoa there! Let's give Savage the respect it deserves. Getting thay clear is easier said than done for a lot of people; especially since you HAVE to learn the mechanics. I know I've wasted way too many hours wiping with groups on Lapis Lazuli during my A11S prog days

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Whoa there! Let's give Savage the respect it deserves. Getting thay clear is easier said than done for a lot of people; especially since you HAVE to learn the mechanics. I know I've wasted way too many hours wiping with groups on Lapis Lazuli during my A11S prog days

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Sorry? Respect? I'll tell you about respect: the respect the dev-team repeatedly fails to display towards grinders. We get a half-baked grind for lesser gear with no other paths every patch; we get a relic lacking both in requirements (yeah, because if raiders can't do it on the side that will be a disaster) and in item-level/stats for the ENTIRE EXPANSION UNTIL THEY RUN OUT OF CONTENT.
So, no, I don't owe any respect to savage, much less to raiders who simply "justify" a poor endgame design.

You can either grind Relic for your weapons and be behind Raiders in terms of gear, or you can Raid and get geared ahead of time. Bam, done. Because for starters, if you're not raiding, you don't NEED any i270 gear, let alone i260 gear, everything in this game can be cleared 20 ilevels below the cap of each Patch cycle[3.0-3.1/3.2-3.3 etc]. You are acting like a spoilt brat and it's unbecoming. If Savage is really as easy as you make it out to be, then why are you sitting here and complaining? Go get your 'easily, non-grindy' gear, I'll check back with you in a few weeks. SMH the audacity of people.

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Originally Posted by VeliusVire

You can either grind Relic for your weapons and be behind Raiders in terms of gear, or you can Raid and get geared ahead of time. Bam, done. Because for starters, if you're not raiding, you don't NEED any i270 gear, let alone i260 gear, everything in this game can be cleared 20 ilevels below the cap of each Patch cycle[3.0-3.1/3.2-3.3 etc]. You are acting like a spoilt brat and it's unbecoming. If Savage is really as easy as you make it out to be, then why are you sitting here and complaining? Go get your 'easily, non-grindy' gear, I'll check back with you in a few weeks. SMH the audacity of people.

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I don't need to be explained the situation, and it doesn't change the fact it shows a marked disrespect towards grinders.
Interestingly, I also have no desire to play with people that are already in my utter-trash/raiding/etc category.
Most interestingly, I am not too keen to support a flawed and single-sided model designed to cater to the action-games audience imported to an RPG series title, like you are.

How are you being disrespected, you are being rewarded /as good/ as raiders for /a quarter of the effort/ over /a longer time/. You're not disrespected, you're spoilt and experiencing a tantrum, there's a difference here. Raiding is grinding as well, you spend weeks or months on a fight, that's not instant gratification so I recommend you open a dictionary before spewing nonsense. And the fact that you apparently categorise people kind of shows exactly how immature you are, clearly you're taking this /video game/ too seriously and I recommend you take a few steps back before and gauge your emotions regarding said topic properly.

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Originally Posted by VeliusVire

How are you being disrespected, you are being rewarded /as good/ as raiders for /a quarter of the effort/ over /a longer time/. You're not disrespected, you're spoilt and experiencing a tantrum, there's a difference here.

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replace a "quarter of the effort" with a "quarter of the content" to be more precise. Multiply this by 8 patches in a row, and you will get that utmost respect..

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Raiding is grinding as well, you spend weeks or months on a fight, that's not instant gratification so I recommend you open a dictionary before spewing nonsense.

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Learning is your problem. The design is still an instant gratification one.

And when people jump into the right boxes by themselves I am too kind to get them redistributed.

Raiders get 4 fights per 6 months, that's less than 1% of content catered to Raiders. All else is Casual/Crafting/Gathering/Literally everything else, so either you're bad at math, or you're bad at math. Your argument is making little to no sense and I think I know why: You don't like the content being implemented because it doesn't cater to you, you're probably not a skilled raider, you're probably not a end-game Crafter/Gatherer, so you're at a loss that if you're not good at anything, then the design must be flawed because you're unable to do any of these and have fun with it. Relics/Roulettes are instant-gratification because you don't even have to try to get them done, Raiding/Crafting/Gathering, you have to try, thus being a Grind of their own right, just a grind you're inept at doing. I digress, the content will not change, the playerbase enjoys it and you're just a voice that's getting drowned out because you're not even sure what you want, adieu to you.

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Originally Posted by VeliusVire

Raiders get 4 fights per 6 months ...

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Grinders get 2 expert roulette dungeons. Oh wait: 2 carbon-copies of previous instances.

It's not an argument - it's an observation. A well validated one for 2 years.
I'll skip on the next part as you have seen an "argument" somewhere(?) and attempted to invalidate it too(!) with personal attacks.

If you are getting a bit too touchy with the "instant gratification", well it's not bad. I mean, yes, it may point to a certain attention-related condition which is quite widespread, but besides that there is no causative link, so don't get salty if your preferred content is actually designed around instant gratification :3

btw, the playerbase is changing too, as in enjoy-the-hacks in PvP/raids.

As for what I want I have expressed it very clearly, the problem beeing adhd raiders don't take it very well if resources are to be directed towards time-consuming grinding (hence the saltiness in some posts).

Anyways, enough with derailing the thread.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

instant gratification

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How can savage be an instant gratification anyways when it comes to loot? ._.

I am running A9s-A11s for 4 months now every week, so its 3 runs per week, ~4 weeks a month, for 4 months = ~48 runs with loot possible.
And I got... what... about 15 pieces of loot, including upgrade items, not really instant if you ask me. q.q

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Originally Posted by Cordie

...it doesn't change the fact it shows a marked disrespect towards grinders.

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There's no disrespect, this game just isn't designed for the grinding kind of gameplay. The whole game design with the time gates, weeklies and dailies is catered towards people who log on for a couple of hours daily, or a few times a week. You're quite frankly in the wrong game if you're looking for something else.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

I am not too keen to support a flawed and single-sided model designed to cater to the action-games audience imported to an RPG series title

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Why are you playing this game again then? I would try something like Black Desert for that super-grind-itch.

So I'd like to point a thing that hasnt been said in the thread yet. See, high raid DPS is good in farm parties, because (like many many people have said so earlier) it makes fights faster, thus more clears in same amount of time, which in turn gives more chances for that desired piece of loot. Its a positive feedback loop in a way.

The other thing that people haven't probably thought about is the safety aspect. Safety? What in the blazes are you on about? Well, let me tell you. Because high raid DPS allows skipping of mechanics, it should always be a goal, because it pretty much makes a potential threat into a non-threat. There are many, many cases, some being severe, some just being kinda there, but let me list a few. Nidhogg EX, skipping towers, potential wipe if someone screws up, Alexander 11 (both savage and normal mode) Lapis skip, again potential wipe if someone makes a mistake (more so on savage, but normal mode is also listed because it can be done, and you know, DF...), Zurvan EX and first soar (oh boy, this thing again), skip it and BAM zero risk of wipe from a mechanic that is a wipe threat. I know im talking potentials here, but laws of math say, if something can happen, it will happen, eventually. So eventually if you merrily beat your way into Zurvan EX for example, your group performs soar and you go on, you will eventually wipe to it. Groups that skip it on the other hand never have to worry about it, and can keep on piling up the high raid DPS to skip the next mechanic that is skippable and so on and so on. A11S is a treasure trove for this, you can literally skip so many things that the fight, like whirlwinds, optical sights, plasma shields and all the good stuff, all of which are potential wipes that you don't have to worry about. There is zero downside to having or wanting high raid DPS in a farm team.

On the other hand, I do not condone harrassment, even if I am an advocate of high DPS. But, if you are given constructive critisism, take it well, don't get offended by it. It takes skill to give good critisism, but it also takes skill to take it.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

There's no disrespect, this game just isn't designed for the grinding kind of gameplay. The whole game design with the time gates, weeklies and dailies is catered towards people who log on for a couple of hours daily, or a few times a week. You're quite frankly in the wrong game if you're looking for something else.

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If you do all the dailies, every day, then that is a whole lot of grinding - and mind-numbingly boring after the first week or two, since you won't have time to do much else in-game.
I'd say the game is actually designed for grinding. Else there wouldn't be all these dailies/weeklies that are near-mandatory to do if you want to keep up gearwise.

Party Finders first time to actually skip mechanics. what kind of PFs did you expect when all other contet they never skipped anything :(

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

If you do all the dailies, every day, then that is a whole lot of grinding - and mind-numbingly boring after the first week or two, since you won't have time to do much else in-game.
I'd say the game is actually designed for grinding. Else there wouldn't be all these dailies/weeklies that are near-mandatory to do if you want to keep up gearwise.

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That's half true. but to be honest I disagree with the won't have time to do much else argument...

primarily because once you've done your expert / any other dailies you may need and got your weekly drops. there's not much else to do...

the reset was Tuesday, I ran dun scaith, got my ultima accessory and weekly item. upgraded a piece of my shire gear. and that's it I'm done for the week... (couple of experts on random days ill be capped in scripture)
today reset scrips. spent an hour capping reds and that's that done for another week...

the only thing left to do really is grind aether/lights on my relic. or maybe join a bird farm if I feel so inclined.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

If you do all the dailies, every day, then that is a whole lot of grinding - and mind-numbingly boring after the first week or two, since you won't have time to do much else in-game.
I'd say the game is actually designed for grinding. Else there wouldn't be all these dailies/weeklies that are near-mandatory to do if you want to keep up gearwise.

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I disagree strongly from the perspective of design.

There's a major difference between a daily bonus and a weekly cap than no cap, no bonus. Most people only do one or two roulettes a day, that's not hard to keep up at all. You don't do everything, only the things you need/want. Just because there's a lot of content, doesn't mean the design dictates you have to it all and keep grinding different things. The relic quest is the only thing in the game with extremely high "cap" (having all weapons) and qualifies as grind-content, in my opinion anyway. Rest of the content REWARDS you for doing it LESS, aka not grinding, by giving you bonuses and making it more valuable time wise to only do one roulette per day, instead of grinding all day/week long. That is DESIGN suggesting and rewarding you for playing less, not playing more which would be a grindy-design.

"Grind by design" is made by having no bonuses or caps what-so-ever. You would literally have to grind 24/7 to keep up with the "best" players because there are no limitations on time spent on activities. That's grinding for real. FFXIV is far cry from it.