Would you like an in-game parser?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

And I'm glad you are honest about it. My bad giving myself ideas how you are as a player, but don't get me wrong when I say this, but ''usually'' when people wrote down what you did, they usually give a rats ass about other players by still playing on a lower level without even trying. Now about the parser, I wish there was one on ps4/pc official, maybe a closed one so you can see your own dps and improve, that's what most people do and it helps alot. I made a few people start and it helps them alot. However what if some people don't wanna try get better? The problem will remain with or without parsers, the only good thing making one official is where people who are on consoles have a chance to use it, instead of asking a pc player all the time? Or simply because many are afraid using a parser and then they really wanna use one thats available?

As for people using it for the opposite purpose, talking people down, I do agree there, I've seen it happen and it still happens. I mentioned this as well and that's a big problem. I also stated there are peopel who are more than willing to get better but there are also people who simply tells you to ''fuck off'' because it's how they play and it suits them. Yes they have the right to play however they want, but if they are playing in groups, that sort of attitude doesn't help at all, and I've seen that much as those prics who call out bad dps looking at their parser, hell might even seen those bad people having a shit fit more than those prics calling out peoples numbers just to be an ass.

And my bad taking decision on what type of player you are or not.

---

I appreciate the acknowledgement.

As I mentioned prior to your post, while leery, I would not be opposed to a personal (self only) parser that had no "announce to chat" option. Such a thing could be used by players for personal betterment without clogging chat with unnecessary chatter. One of the things I dislike about parsers that show you everyone's numbers is that it often turns a "cooperative" situation (a raid for instance), into a "competitive" one (dps trying to one up each other). And while some amount of competition can be healthy it often leads to players making reckless decisions for the betterment of their personal numbers at the cost of the overall group's performance. I dislike chat announcements because you inevitably end up with:

The "star of the show!" player who asks "anyone have meters?" only when they've topped them and they clearly have their own but want someone other than themselves to post it to chat.

The ever classic "elitist jerk" player who tells those who do poorly just how bad they are and that they should just quit the game cause there's no hope for them to be anything but bad. Never once offering any sort of constructive criticism or advice on how to improve.

These types of behavior are most typically seen in dungeon/small party level content where bleeding edge performance isn't required and some players are still learning about the game. I particularly dislike the second type of player because I don't like seeing players attacked because they might not be the best, in content that doesn't require the best, and contribute no worthwhile feedback to help others improve. It's akin to putting together a group requiring everyone to have an ilvl above 200... for an instance that has a min ilvl requirement of 180 and only drops 195 loot. Which is ridiculous.

Heck even in our pleasant community we have bad apples. I primarily heal as SCH (and lately WHM) in this game. I had a Snowcloak run where the tank was obviously not confident in his tanking ability. He kept his pulls small and sometimes lost aggro on a mob which came to me but he was quick to pick them back up. While this run wasn't the fastest I've had, there were no wipes and no deaths. At the end of the run the BLM in the party says in chat something along the lines of "You should give up tanking you're horrible at it." and leaves the dungeon. THAT was his "contribution". I can only imagine what he'd say to other dps if he had meters to see "how much better he is than them". That's what I want to avoid in ffxiv.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dorander

There will never be official numbers posted. EVER. SSS tells you if you are doing enough dps to complete an encounter before enrage mechanics happen. Parsers - tell you what your dps is. You know what DPS stands for right? Damage Per Second? All they are doing is giving a numerical value to the exact same thing that SSS does.. just SSS doesn't show numbers. It just says "pass" or "fail." In the end, that's all you need.

---

You are right, they likely will never have official numbers. It's a shame though, as I feel it would help this game and its playerbase immensely.

I realize what DPS stands for, and the numerical number is useful. I mean it's similar to any sort of numerical measure of something. "I know that when I drive home, it takes 10 minutes" vs "I drove 100 kph on my way home". Obviously, the reasoning for those values are very different than in the game - where you don't want to go too fast to stay within legal limits or close to, whether your concern is for safety or for avoiding tickets.

In terms of the game, DPS meters are useful for guaguing how your damage changes based on encounters and your changes within those encounters. During SSS, sure you can pull whatever DPS - great job. That isn't going to show if it is actually better to save your cooldowns for when Twinkledinks is large or small in A5S (note that it appears it is not better to save your cooldowns and to use them when you can). It won't show you how your numbers change when you adjust your rotation on Ravana ex with the damage up/down buffs. It won't show how your numbers change when you have to swap between AoE/single target for add phases. It won't show how your numbers change as you are doing mechanics. ... and so on.

SSS has one use, and that is to see if you are worthy of attempting content or not. It doesn't actually help you improve yourself within said content. It also doesn't help your team understand what needs to be addressed when not meeting DPS checks. An interesting aside, hard DPS checks are extremely prevalent in this game, which seems counter-intuitive given the stance on parsers.

From my personal experience, I've only seen SSS used as a "I beat A8S dummy! \o/" announcements via FC chat. Often these are announcement by people who actively parse on PC. Players on PS4 that I know don't even know where SSS even is. A NIN in my static, for example, was asking me just the other day - and he actively works to improve his numbers.

As one final aside:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dorander

You know what DPS stands for right? Damage Per Second?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

That's not something you say to someone, unless you are genuinely concerned and you phrase it more respectfully. It's a very rude way of disagreeing with someone.

---

While not exactly the same thing Rawrz was referencing, it's the same idea. When you are asking these questions, you are phrasing it in a way that is extremely condescending and rude, rather than honest and helpful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spawnie

nope definately not

---

i second the motion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

That's what I want to avoid in ffxiv.

---

I agree alot of what you said, so no doubt we are somewhat on the same page. As you mentioned people will be competive but so much the chat will be spammed it? Doubt it. It can happen but not much as you say.
And about that snowcloak run I totally agree. I've had my share of runs where the runs are insanly slow but I don't care as I see they are either new or never played that class, however not so long ago, few weeks ago when I first got my whm to 60, I was lvling in aery and I was dpsing the adds to make the run faster, the tank lets me die because he cant hold aggro againts my holy. Keep in mind he never died in that run. I know this is nothing about parsing or dps meter, but to respond to what you said, no you don't need to be the worlds best to play a dungeon, I'm aware there are new players or people who simply aren't as used to the class they are playing. But when you have mulitply of 60's and then have a hard time holding aggro? I somehow expect people to play somewhat good or decent when they been doing the same thing for ages. Isn't why we play games? Being better is fun and beating stuff in it is amazing? Or is that spirit gone for most players. Yes I do know people are having fun in their own way and how they beat content. But when they come and say they can't beat it and then are aware they are the bad grass that's another story. I will keep it simple so sorry for the long reply but yes I do agree with what you said. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

snip.

---

All that comes from just 'doing' the dungeon. Again, you don't even need a parser to tell you those things. As a dps, your cooldowns should be used as much as possible. Sitting on them, for any length of time is a waste. Only in certain circumstances do you hold off till something is over. You don't need a parser to tell you that. SSS gives you exactly what the devs want you to know: Can you, in your current gear and with your standard rotation, defeat this encounter? No? Get better gear/work on your standard rotation. Yes? Go have fun.

And as I said to Rawrz. That's the point. Amazing you picked up on that. /eyeroll

Yes, I would like a large fry. Hold the salt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dorander

All that comes from just 'doing' the dungeon. Again, you don't even need a parser to tell you those things. As a dps, your cooldowns should be used as much as possible. Sitting on them, for any length of time is a waste. Only in certain circumstances do you hold off till something is over. You don't need a parser to tell you that. SSS gives you exactly what the devs want you to know: Can you, in your current gear and with your standard rotation, defeat this encounter? No? Get better gear/work on your standard rotation. Yes? Go have fun.

---

That is not always the case, certain encounters promote sitting on your cooldowns. For example, in Bismark Extreme, you should save Raging Strikes for the Snakes (I mean when it was a relevant DPS check). In Ravana, using your cooldowns when he has the Sword buff instead of the Shield dramatically increases your overall damage output. Parsers help you test out different strategies and see how it affects things. It also helps you see stuff for your team, back to Bismark for example, in that you could see that as a team you are dying on the snakes. However, everyone on the team floored the SSS (hypothetically), so what gives? Oh this handy parser is showing that DPS#1 is using all his cooldowns right at the start and his DPS drops dramatically during the Snake phase. Then you can easily address it. Can you address stuff without a parser? Yes. However, it is a tool that helps.

The SSS does nothing to translate your ability to DPS in an actual encounter with mechanics, or know how/when to use your cooldowns, among other things.

Quote:

---

And as I said to Rawrz. That's the point. Amazing you picked up on that. /eyeroll

---

...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

...

---

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...93/875/084.png
Agreed.

I remember when I was first doing ravana and bismark. The carapice sometimes was an issue to break. Back then I was doing the standard rotation in every encounter. Bio II, miasma, bio, aero, shadowflare, because they were my highest potency attacks. Many groups could not clear the carapice. I wondered, am I doing this right? I wrote down every skill a SCH had and made a chart on how effective each skill was over time. You could see how Bio and Aero shine in burst phases, by the graph. Instead, using the data, I would bio, ED, aero, swift, ED, Broil, ED/aetherflow, Broil spam instead in that 18 second window. Figuring out that, increased the success rate of my parties. If I could have used a parser to see how low my damage was on the target, I probably would have been able to improve sooner.

This trial was a real cornerstone to how I DPS. Without it, I would never have developed the way I dps now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

As an AST, I wouldn't know who to give Arrow or Balance if I can't see the DPS of my party members.

---

To clarify, I personally would love a public meter, but as you can see from this thread most players do not want any chance of their DPS being evaluated. A personal meter is a compromise that even the staunchest anti-parse person cannot provide a valid argument against.

Just /kill thread lol and keep status quo...people will continue to parse unbeknownst to others, the non-parsing community will be quietly ostracized from progression groups as is what happens on all servers regardless (noted: even if you do not condone parsing, doesnt mean you don't do too dps, and parsers will not mention anything and potentially keep you in the group). Only thing here to make not of, is a good percentage of the non-parsing community is never going to be progression material. As is the status quo...sad to say, but it's like a professor allowing you to use a cheat sheet to do an exam, why hate on a nice resource because of "harassment, ill-mannered opinions, and judgemental behavior"?

Short answer...because the ff community needs to argue about something lol, could be a perfectly nice day outside and somebody here will be like, "I see a cloud in the distance..." Lol

I'm in full support of an official parser simply because of the potential good it can bring, and also because it'd be much, MUCH easier to discern if someone is actually abusing parsers to harass people, because the plausible deniability is no longer there.

I find most of the fears of parsers being abused come from anecdotal stories from the community's interactions with hardcore raiders, when it's an established fact that the vast majority of people using parsers are within that community, and it's also a given that such people are also FAR more likely to have a certain attitude. Open it up to the rest of the community, and the abuse from the elitists will basically be diluted out.

The potential for it to be a force for good is too important to pass up. Astrologians can easily judge who can make the most use out of their cards. Actual mentors would be able to give advice to players of the same class, and the mentees (assuming they are actually willing to learn) would be able to IMMEDIATELY see how much they improve by following the advice. The reverse is also true - everyone would be able to immediately notice if the advice being given out is straight up bad.

Of course, willingness to learn is a huge part of it. People who are unwilling to learn will always be unwilling to learn. But we all know it's not okay to behave like that, just like it's not okay for an elitist to suddenly boot someone decent out because they only did 10% less damage compared to their best friend. But this is for everyone else who WANTS to get better but doesn't know how to, due to a combination of having no reliable mentor to guide their progress, and not wanting to resort to using third party programs that are considered taboo by much of the community (and using a PS3, in which using third party programs is out of the question anyway).

Don't hold back the rest of the community because of the concerns over the two extreme sides of the spectrum.

Idea: Create a in game DPS meter to allow see all party members DPS. Then, add a option in the character configuration window saying: "Allow other member of the party see my DPS" If you marked it, others can se it, if you unmarked it, it is private and others cannot see your DPS.

If people start abuse the DPS meter, more people will deactivate it. If people does not abuse, probably more people will activate it. I think this can work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xlantaa

If people start abuse the DPS meter, more people will deactivate it. If people does not abuse, probably more people will activate it. I think this can work.

---

The most likely thing to happen is for people to ask the people who have it disabled to activate it and quietly issue a vote-kick if they don't (Or, just leave the group themselves - the penalty for doing so is negligible). Why? Because the underlying assumption is that everyone who hides it is a bad player. I don't think we'd have this discussion if "opt-out" was considered an acceptable solution, because one of the motivations for wanting a parser is to find 'bad apples' and remove them.

There is alot of content where DPS doesn't matter much.

But there is also content where it matters.

For these kind of content there should be the possibility of providing numbers ingame, so that its not PC only any longer.

There are some people that think "You just need to read and understand the skills".

People like this would be very surprised to see, how far they are away from performing very good. Maybe it would open their eyes, if they would "know" how wrong they are with their opinion.

Its more than just understand how the skills work. Its pure mathematics. And for this, you need numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

The most likelything to happen is for people to ask the people who have it disabled to activate it and quietly issue a vote-kick if they don't (Or, just leave the group themselves - the penalty for doing so is negligible). Why? Because the underlying assumption is that everyone who hides it is a bad player. I don't think we'd have this discussion if "opt-out" was considered an acceptable solution, because one of the motivations for wanting a parser is to find 'bad apples' and remove them.

---

I was starting to like Xlantaa"s suggestion, untill I read your post and I have to agree 100% with you. If someone disables their dps meter, the first thing players will think is: " This player is a scrub and needs to git gud". I know that if there was a dps meter and we failed to kill a boss and one player disabled their dps meter and refused to activate their meter, the first thing I would do is suspect that this player is the one ruining our run and kick him or her out.

Opt-out will only will only work for features where players do not have a control over you. An example: If there is open-world PvP and you disable the PK mode, you can play without being PKed, nobodies action can affect you, but if you disable your dps meter and refuse to turn it back on, you will be kicked, because the group has the power (ability to kick you ) to control you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

The most likely thing to happen is for people to ask the people who have it disabled to activate it and quietly issue a vote-kick if they don't (Or, just leave the group themselves - the penalty for doing so is negligible). Why? Because the underlying assumption is that everyone who hides it is a bad player. I don't think we'd have this discussion if "opt-out" was considered an acceptable solution, because one of the motivations for wanting a parser is to find 'bad apples' and remove them.

---

Yeah, I know that. People thinks they are in the position to judge who must play the game and who not. I do not undestand this obsesion with DPS for low level content.



Raid parties statics usually are friends or are more aware what they should do, there is no problems here normally. But extend this into the normal casual content is just stupid. "Hey BLm, your DPS is 1500, should be 1700 for you item level, get out of this dungeon noob". People really WANT that? I know, "You are assuming everyone wil ldo this" No, I'm not, but there will be player who will do it, and this ones can cause problems to people who only want play for a while and enjoy the run isntead of compiting who have the bigger hit.

Bump /10char

We dont want to put munition into the hands of the aholes or trolls who would abuse any parser. On the other hand in a static it can be a very usefull tool. So perhaps give the numbers to premades in ex primals and savage gordias/midas but keep it far far away from dutyfinder. There isnt that much use for it there.
Its very likely that at least one member of the static is parsing anyway so what is the point of an ingame parser then?

People need to understand that even if no "official" parser is implemented, pc players are and have been parsing this whole time. Not adding an ingame parser simply denies any good that can come off it and keeps the potential negatives regardless.
Think of the poor ps4 players! (People are already parsing and removing people who do abyssmal dps. Mainly on ex trials. Atleast with a public parser people would know and see why they are getting kicked.)

People always feel like they are doing fine (flying numbersconfuse people) until they keep running into enrage problems and get told they are doing 400 dps at i230...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathgiver

There's this game I play, where I read the parser threads and then look up the players most vocally for and against parsing on fflogs. You'd never guess where the people against usually fall on the dps scale :þ

---

loool wats dis. I DO use parser but only for MYSELF. Cuse i dont care about others. People like you are "forced" to do perfect thing. Just sayin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johaandr

loool wats dis. I DO use parser but only for MYSELF. Cuse i dont care about others. People like you are "forced" to do perfect thing. Just sayin.

---

The void ark fflogs are pretty common. It's nice, although somewhat unfair since its faceroll content. Really wish I could look at a parse from an expert run to see exactly how much Selene heals. My last dungeon I used one Lustrate during active combat. xD Adlo and SS between pulls. Thank God for Sprint.

Being able to see healing contributions and overheal during raids would ideal as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

The void ark fflogs are pretty common.

---

I personally only got one for M1 normal from two months ago. And it unfortunately doesn't show DPS relative to stats (or even average iLvL), which makes the comparison with other parses a tad pointless. But egh, wasn't expecting much :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

I personally only got one for M1 normal from two months ago. And it unfortunately doesn't show DPS relative to stats (or even average iLvL), which makes the comparison with other parses a tad pointless. But egh, wasn't expecting much :P

---

It shows them compared to others of the same job around the same time. You'd have to assume that you're moderately geared, relative to the other players.

Scoring 900 dps on one class 2 months ago could put you at the 99th percentile, but scoring 1100 now could put you at the 89th percentile, for example.

Just for myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

It shows them compared to others of the same job around the same time.

---

Which includes raiders that go for BiS and socket materia as well as new people who barely meet the minimum requirements for entering. I dunno, I find it hard to compare. Or perhaps more precisely, I find it hard to tell how much is actual gameplay and how much is raw stats. If you're at the bottom, you can probably guess it's not just gear alone that's at fault. If you're at the top, you can generally assume you're not doing too much wrong. But that's really just a very rough idea and not a whole lot more helpful than the aggro bar ._.'

15-page long "Poll thread" inadvertently displays why in game parsers are necessary. Because people too illiterate to like the relevant posts are also too illiterate to read tooltips. GG NO RE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamillion

15-page long "Poll thread" inadvertently displays why in game parsers are necessary. Because people too illiterate to like the relevant posts are also too illiterate to read tooltips. GG NO RE

---

It's pretty common on forums for people to not even read the post and just respond to thread titles and look silly doing so.
I replied cause may as well, 15 pages in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

The void ark fflogs are pretty common. It's nice, although somewhat unfair since its faceroll content. Really wish I could look at a parse from an expert run to see exactly how much Selene heals. My last dungeon I used one Lustrate during active combat. xD Adlo and SS between pulls. Thank God for Sprint.

Being able to see healing contributions and overheal during raids would ideal as well.

---

Considering the amount of times I run Void Ark, I'm actually surprised there isn't more data on how I perform on there. Apparently someone's only ever uploaded a parse of me once at Cetus in Void Ark, and apparently I'm somehow in the 97th percentile of Bards there. Meanwhile I have way more data on Midas normal, where I'm about 80th percentile there...

I still have a lot of work to do as a Bard though. Apparently the best bards average around 1.5k DPS, I only average around 1.1-1.2k.

I wish there was data on the new Expert dungeons, I want to see how much damage I pull as a WHM in EX roulettes, considering with a good tank, all I have to do is abuse regen and never have to hardcast a Cure/Cure II throughout the entire dungeon run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathgiver

There's this game I play, where I read the parser threads and then look up the players most vocally for and against parsing on fflogs. You'd never guess where the people against usually fall on the dps scale :þ

---

That's my favorite game. Just like check fflogs /thread boys lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathgiver

There's this game I play, where I read the parser threads and then look up the players most vocally for and against parsing on fflogs. You'd never guess where the people against usually fall on the dps scale :þ

---

Don't forget the...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blitzace

I don't see the need for a parser. i usually can see who is slacking off just fine without one.

---

...fraction.

Another thing, there already are parsers. People already use them, and you are already being judged. If you try to get a static you are being parsed if you are not good they will not invite you back, instead of saying hey your dps was lacking they will just ignore you or give you some line like "I dont think it will work" or "we dont feel you are the right fit". The problem with that is you dont know they are doing it and you dont know how to fix what is wrong. It puts ps4 people at a disadvantage as well.

125 votes cast so far! (conservatively speaking, since the instruction could have been unclear and some people just voted personal parser and not both a parser, then only personal.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raffounz

Yes Yes Yes. And DPS minimum requirements to join content.

---

That could go horribly and I mean horribly wrong so easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

That could go horribly and I mean horribly wrong so easily.

---

Don't really need to be a dps requirement tbh, but should add some gate to join higher ceiling content. Like how Titan HM was needed to join coil.

Honestly anyone can clear savage as long as they have/do the following:
1. Reflex memory as for skills (some people may need to practice longer than others for this part but anyone can do it)
2. Research on optimizating dps, dmg loss, and team colaboration(being open mind to new strategies and trying to always improve is a huge plus)
3. Attempt to understand boss mechanisms for every role (so that you know what's going on and can opimizate strategy and recover from unexpected situations)
4. Look what went wrong every time group wipes and attempt to fix it. Don't get angry if you or someone makes a mistake as no one is perfect(simply try not to repeat mistakes if you can).
5. Stay always positive. Raiding is a bitch at times when progress is slow. Staying positive makes the team ambient better which influences progress somehow.
5. Have enough free time and patience to find a team and do all the above


In the end the issue is finding people who are determinated enough to think for themselves and improve, not the lack of dps itself, nor mechanisms(both easily solvable).

^ Yep. :O <3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

Which includes raiders that go for BiS and socket materia as well as new people who barely meet the minimum requirements for entering. I dunno, I find it hard to compare. Or perhaps more precisely, I find it hard to tell how much is actual gameplay and how much is raw stats. If you're at the bottom, you can probably guess it's not just gear alone that's at fault. If you're at the top, you can generally assume you're not doing too much wrong. But that's really just a very rough idea and not a whole lot more helpful than the aggro bar ._.'

---

To be fair, it also includes raiders who go into Void Ark or the like and just slack off because "It doesn't matter.".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pells

To be fair, it also includes raiders who go into Void Ark or the like and just slack off because "It doesn't matter.".

---

Yeah thats why I said it was faceroll. xD It lets you see your damage spikes, buff uptime, overheal on tank and lots of random goodies. :O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pells

To be fair, it also includes raiders who go into Void Ark or the like and just slack off because "It doesn't matter.".

---

And non-raiders who do the same. It even includes the people who just follow and autoattack, which...makes the lowest percentiles somewhat, uhm...yeah. Skewed?

So yeah, the ultimate wisdom this parse reveals to me is: It is possible to do both more and less DPS than me. Well duh. I'd never have guessed >_>