That Garlean guy, what was his name? Gaius Van Baelsar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belhi

The Kobolds are on the Limsans but they aren't trying to wipe out the Kobolds. In both cases, at least the Limsans are open to a peaceful solution.

The fundamental different is the policy of the city's rulers and overarching policy of the population's doesn't involve harming, oppressing or abusing others. Garlemald's issues are government endorsed and frankly enforced. They are Garlean policy. The issues of the city states are things they are at least trying to mitigate or are open to change with.

---

*wibble wobble hand motion* Limsa is certainly open to a peaceful solution. Now that they've gotten what they wanted from the Kobolds having broken the peace they already had to get more land and such. If they got peace with the kobolds, I'd keep waiting till they needed more.

Amusingly, my favourite City State and Grand company. 'Til Sea Swallows All.

The thing is, all of those conflicts are in a sort of wary holding pattern. The Limsans aren't actively trying to retake the lands the Sahagin (or the Kobolds) are on, they're just preventing them from pushing further. You can argue whether or not the balance is fair - the stalemate certainly favors Limsa - but they are playing live-and-let-live until a direct threat arises.

As for the Elementals...well, the Calamity kinda made them a non-issue, didn't it? But even in 1.x, they were restricted to the Shroud - something you had to deal with if you lived there, sure, but at least you could conceivably choose to live somewhere else.

Neither of those hold true for Garlemald. Their expansion is both unprovoked and indiscriminate. The other city-states' issues are their own; Garlemald's are everybody's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

Neither of those hold true for Garlemald. Their expansion is both unprovoked and indiscriminate. The other city-states' issues are their own; Garlemald's are everybody's.

---

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to argue in favor of Garlemald. I'm arguing that due to the way the narrative is structured, we haven't had an opportunity to see Garlemald in general as anything more than villains, because the game doesn't allow us to. The narrative is highly favorable to the Eorzean city-states and even sometimes sort of hand-waves the more negative traits or barely even mentions them at all in the 2.0 MSQ, the information being relegated to side quests. The Elemental example is a perfect one; it seems normal to us, since we play in Eorzea, but I imagine to an outsider, that **** is probably seen as crazy.

I'm on the side of "it would be really nice if things stopped being black and white with Garlemald sooner rather than later," though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

snip

---

I'm sure than on a future expansion. Once we finaly go to the deeps of the Empire ( I hope ), I'm sure we will see more about garlean culture. An empire is a dictatorship, and NO one likes as dictatorship.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

This. This right here is basically proving my point that the MSQ at least intends for you to view the city-states in a more positive light, regardless of their issues.

The Elementals have shown, without a doubt, that what they believe is best for the forest does not always mean what is best for the people living within it - or the mortals, or the world in general. They caused an Umbral Era - something that influences a much larger world, because of their forest and Eorzea. That's terrifying.

The Elementals are not nice. The Elementals do not care. And yet you're willing to defend the choice of Elemental worship and accept their occasional cruel apathy because you're (a general 'you,' not specific) conditioned to by the game, because "it's the price of living in the forest."

Looking out from Eorzea and in, I can see how one might view this as complete madness, to subject yourself to essentially the whims of fickle creatures that don't care about you just so you can live on their lands. And if they don't like you? Tough luck.

---

Again, the Elementals aren't good or evil. They are nature spirits. They are tied to the very health of the natural world. Yes they caused a Umbral calamity but it was due to the War of the Magi sucking the land dry of Aether (ie. lifeforce) due to their escalating conflict. That's the risk of WHM and BLM. It can literally leech the very life out of the world around you to fuel your magic. The Elementals also exist outside the Twelveswood, they only enforce their polices in the Twelveswood (sacred grounds I guess). A-Towa-Cant travelled partially to commune with Elementals from other lands.

Consider this. What other options exist for dealing with the likes of the Elementals? If they are as tied to nature as they seem to be any act harming or inhibiting them might easily have rather negative effects on the natural world. You could avoid them but then again that would mean not living in their forest at all. Mortals screwed over the Elementals in a huge way in the War of the Magi. The Allag didn't seem to have the same issues we currently do with them. There are huge trust issues there. Think of it like the dragons except the Elementals seem to be willing to give the Mortal races a second chance if with conditions.

Gridanian elemental worship at its worse means people coming to the Twelveswood will be driven out or abandoned, even if they are in need. Yeah that's bad. It still doesn't match the things the Garleans do and in the case of the Elementals its confined to Gridania. My argument isn't that the City States are without fault or flaw but that Garlemald is much worse and its issues are much more entrenched government policy which the Garleans hold no regret or recognise as an issue.

While I agree the narrative naturally places us in situation to see Garlemald as worse than the city states, I would strongly argue that if we look at the factual information we have in the lore subjectively, from a ethical and moral stand point Garlemald is still worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I'm arguing that due to the way the narrative is structured, we haven't had an opportunity to see Garlemald in general as anything more than villains, because the game doesn't allow us to. The narrative is highly favorable to the Eorzean city-states and even sometimes sort of hand-waves the more negative traits or barely even mentions them at all in the 2.0 MSQ, the information being relegated to side quests. The Elemental example is a perfect one; it seems normal to us, since we play in Eorzea, but I imagine to an outsider, that **** is probably seen as crazy.

I'm on the side of "it would be really nice if things stopped being black and white with Garlemald sooner rather than later," though.

---

This is all mostly in response to Theodric's desire to see them get the same "heroic gaze" cast on them that the Eorzean Alliance gets without somehow compromising what's defined them to this point. And frankly, I think that's impossible.

But also, there's more to the City-States being likable than just the whims of the storytellers. While it's true they others all have their darker sides (glossed over or not), they also value peaceful co-existence with neighbouring states. Garlemald is basically the opposite - even if we saw some beneficial side, what could it be that would balance out its aggressive campaigns of persecution and subjugation? The EA is likable by default with some darker undertone; Garlemald is antagonistic and unsympathetic by nature, which makes it a bit difficult to see what could be revealed to put them on an even playing field with the others. It'd take more than just some revelations.

So while I'm all for Garlemald getting presented as a little less black and white too, I doubt that will happen while their leadership still harbors imperial ambitions, and that seems like it would fall under "toning them down" that Theodric's opposed to.

(Although, I guess what they COULD do is have Garlemald make a pact with Eorzea that would halt their attempts on Aldenard but, say, allows them to retain their presence in Othard and on their home turf - so they're still a self-important Empire, just not in a way that affects *us*, and the hypocrisy of the Eorzean Alliance being generally cool with that then generates tension with the Domans. I don't think it's an especially likely twist, but it's not entirely out there, if things against the Ascians got bad enough).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

....

---

Personally, I don't like the Elementals and I think them STAYING on their death bed is a good thing. They had millineas to revel in unlimited power and it seems abused is to maintain their power. If their power wasn't directly linked to the Forest's "Wildness" that. Bahamut burning half of it down and dammaging the other half beyond recognition wouldn't have made them weaker.

Garlemauld I want to know more about their past than present. Before Emperor Soluz formed The Empire and integrated the newly discovered/invented magitec, Garlemauld was said to be a small nation. I bet they were likly poor and martially weak too. This why them turning into an empire "seemingly overnight" was so shocking.

So what actually triggered this "We need to get strong fast" mentality? And why do they hate beast tribes and "Eikons" so bad?

I'm starting to wonder if Garlemauld Proper wasn't wreaked by an Othardian Beast Tribe's "God" a few decades ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frederick22

I'm sure than on a future expansion. Once we finaly go to the deeps of the Empire ( I hope ), I'm sure we will see more about garlean culture. An empire is a dictatorship, and NO one likes as dictatorship.

---

Empires aren't necessarily dictatorships. An empire is defined as a collection of territories ruled by a central government, typically with a single individual in charge. Considering the term comes from Rome, where the head of such a government was the imperator (a military leader), that's an easy mistake to make... but an empire is, by definition, a collection of territories controlled by a central government, typically with an expansionist policy. (It's why empires are typically seen as evil in fiction, and also why while the US was never officially an empire it did have some imperial policies and tendencies in the early 20th century.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Garlemauld I want to know more about their past than present. Before Emperor Soluz formed The Empire and integrated the newly discovered/invented magitec, Garlemauld was said to be a small nation. I bet they were likly poor and martially weak too. This why them turning into an empire "seemingly overnight" was so shocking.

So what actually triggered this "We need to get strong fast" mentality? And why do they hate beast tribes and "Eikons" so bad?

---

This could easily all get retconned, but the current understanding we have is that Garlemald got onto the Magitek-industrial train, realized how strong it made them, then up and started conquering. Nothing in the backstory presented so far even suggests otherwise, and a small nation coming into power and its leader deciding to not be small anymore is frankly pretty likely. Even if it was to strike back at some now-conquered nation or was the response to some past injustice keeping them down, it's a bit hard to see how that would make their current actions more sympathetic. At best, they're tragic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I'm starting to wonder if Garlemauld Proper wasn't wreaked by an Othardian Beast Tribe's "God" a few decades ago.

---

This we actually know. They weren't. Garlemald encountered Primals for the first time after they finished conquering their home continent and decided to expand into Othard. The Primals were summoned in response to their invasion, not the other way around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

So what actually triggered this "We need to get strong fast" mentality? And why do they hate beast tribes and "Eikons" so bad?

---

I'm guessing the entire place is run from behind the scenes by some leftover Allagan will or other bent on building a global empire the "right" way, and with just enough knowledge to avoid the "problems" that ended it the first time. We know the royal blood could pass memories down over generations, and that Archmagus Noah had the means to literally live on beyond death in the body of another, but isn't that all just a little too creepy to be an isolated occurrence?

The quick rise of Garlemald and their expansionist policy reminds me alot of FF 4's Baron and FF 6's Gestahl Empire. Both cases they were a small nation that discovered technology and quickly conquered surrounding nations.

I don't think there's any meaning behind Garlemald's expansion other than greed. However, it seems as if then Emperor's (Solus) witnessing 1st-hand a Primal in Othard probably made him obsessed an anti-primal agenda. Prior to that Primal were just things of legend. They might've heard about them with all the Allagan relics they've discovered, but never thought they would encounter one.

I think Garlemald's only been an Empire for roughly 50 years? That's not a long time and I am sure there are Garleans that still remember how things were when it was still a Republic and might want things to return to it. Afterall, with the support of the citizens, Solus became a Dictator and eventually after conquering the neighboring nations turned Garlemald from a Republic and into an Empire. His only known quote is: "No lands must remain beyond our grasp. Go forth. Conquer. Rule."

That makes me curious about Hydaelyn's average life expectancy... I can't imagine it being much higher than approx 40-50 years given the basis of what ~1400s Europe? (obvious nobility outliers etc) and in that case I don't know if there would be many people from pre-Imperial Garlemald (and those who have lived so long likely did so because of favoritism toward the Empire)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rocl

That makes me curious about Hydaelyn's average life expectancy... I can't imagine it being much higher than approx 40-50 years given the basis of what ~1400s Europe? (obvious nobility outliers etc) and in that case I don't know if there would be many people from pre-Imperial Garlemald (and those who have lived so long likely did so because of favoritism toward the Empire)

---

I wouldn't think that likely. Strickly speaking our own average life expectancy in the real world used to be heavily effected by high mortality rates among children.

Further FF14 is a world with alchemy, magic and Magitech. Even prior to their rise of technology I somewhat doubt the Garleans didn't have at least a competent level of understanding of science and engineering since they are a race with no capacity for magic and a naturally higher spatial awareness. Where many nations could look to magic for ways around issue, such defence or such, the Garleans would have had to rely on practical solutions. Need for them would have driven them harder than most other races to develop faster transportation, engineering and medical science.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DE-Roxas

So...whats about him?
He is supposed to be dead but...we never actually saw him die.
And this is a Final Fantasy Game. You know whats happening if you dont see sb die.

*calculation*

Yep, he is totally coming back isnt he? :D
Maybe in the story ark regarding Ala Migho? So 4.0

Just a little speculation thrown out here :D
What do you guys think?

I honestly really like this Character, and c'mon even Nero made it out, and Nero is a total looser. :D

---

Congrats, He's back you were right !!

Well, he's probably back. I still want to know what deus ex machina saved him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

I still want to know what deus ex machina saved him.

---

To be fair, Ultima exploded while he was sitting in it. Right in his face. Then it exploded again while he was laying there on the ground. Right on his face. And then he got up and started shuffling around as the rest of the base started exploding, whereby the camera cut away while he was still standing.

cLeArLy HiS aRmOr JuSt HaS eXpLoSiOn ReSiSt

More seriously, if you look back to Futures Perfect, Alive, or A Difference of Opinion, if there is a functional airship nearby, getting brought into it from the ground can be a very swift process.

EDIT
The last time you see Nero in 2.0, you overcome him and his magitek and he flees when the Ultima Weapon starts up, cackling about how nothing can withstand its might. The next time you see him, in 2.1, he flags you down in Mor Dhona in disguise and says he recognizes you as the person who "bested the Garlean General". Not killed. Bested. For all we know Nero went back to watch his magnum opus tear the Warrior of Light a new one and, when it hit the fan, prepped a ship and grabbed Gaius on the way out. For all we know he's known the whole time.

im thinking the heart of sabik has sumthing to do with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

im thinking the heart of sabik has sumthing to do with it.

---

I can't believe I'm reply again so soon but this tickled me real good.

Can you imagine? Ostensibly a shard of Zodiark('s power) that was housed in the Ultima Weapon.

Literally deus ex machina.

I suppose, in a game where dead people can't seem to stay dead, it's fitting that two long-dead threads have been revived within two days of each other, by the power of necromancy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I can't believe I'm reply again so soon but this tickled me real good.

Can you imagine? Ostensibly a shard of Zodiark('s power) that was housed in the Ultima Weapon.

Literally deus ex machina.

---

I'm cackling in my kitchen, I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

To be fair, Ultima exploded while he was sitting in it. Right in his face. Then it exploded again while he was laying there on the ground. Right on his face. And then he got up and started shuffling around as the rest of the base started exploding, whereby the camera cut away while he was still standing.

---

This should honestly have been more suspect in retrospect. The Warrior of Light needs Hydaelyn to survive Ultima and even that burns Hydaelyn out massively. Giaus just needs whatever plating is over Ultima and what the Garleans put in their armor. Given that Lahabrea and Hydaelyn act like another Ultima blast will kill us... Yeah... I really want whatever enabled Giaus to survive that now...

Thanks Moose... I now have a mental image of Nero making sure the Eorzeans don't screw up too badly while his boss is out hunting down Ascians...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

This should honestly have been more suspect in retrospect. The Warrior of Light needs Hydaelyn to survive Ultima and even that burns Hydaelyn out massively. Giaus just needs whatever plating is over Ultima and what the Garleans put in their armor. Given that Lahabrea and Hydaelyn act like another Ultima blast will kill us... Yeah... I really want whatever enabled Giaus to survive that now...

Thanks Moose... I now have a mental image of Nero making sure the Eorzeans don't screw up too badly while his boss is out hunting down Ascians...

---

Same way Rufus survived the head on blast from weapon in FF7/advent children...

I noticed his left arm is all bandaged up, possible injury from the Praetorium explosion?
https://78.media.tumblr.com/8025b7ef...sw0uo1_500.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I can't believe I'm reply again so soon but this tickled me real good.

Can you imagine? Ostensibly a shard of Zodiark('s power) that was housed in the Ultima Weapon.

Literally deus ex machina.

---

It would provide a way to eradicate Ascians without Blade of Light or White Auracite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

It would provide a way to eradicate Ascians without Blade of Light or White Auracite.

---

This aspect is something we'd been considering.

I'd figured perhaps the Ascians reclaimed Sabik (for the Isle of Val), but the irony of killing Ascians with it is attractive, lol.

On one hand, I am all for the poetic justice of using a shard of Zodiark to kill an Ascian. Be careful what you wish for and all, except applied with glee to world-enders. It certainly should have the amount of aether required to off one, and if it is a shard of Zodiark then it also doesn't run the risk of running out of steam (any more than our crystals of light can run out of steam and kill us, but if Ysayle could transform into a primal strong enough to perma-freeze a war airship's engines with only that, then we with 6 of them have nothing to fear, or someone else with that particular Heart).



On the other hand, Gaius lacks the ability to manipulate aether. The Heart of Sabik would be nothing but a beautiful and powerful crystal power source, but he has no way to make it work by his own hand and by his own will as a weapon. Had to plug it into Ultima first, after all. And while a Garlean can be possessed by Auracite (and thus... use it? sort of? be used by it?) the Bangaa that turns into the last boss basically made a pact with the soul-form within it to release his desires as a change in physical form, which kills him with a certainty. We were able to rescue Jenomis Lexentale/Arzalam Durai though, so it might rely on the state of the "host" and thus make it 'safe' for Gaius to use provided he doesn't mind trading off his humanity for a wee bit. Garleanity. Spokenness. Whatever.

(And wouldn't that also be fun to use on an Ascian, considering that it anchors their soul there for the duration? A revenge from the 13th could be also interesting to see.)

That said: is Sabik required to -cast- Ultima? Or is it more of a "not even an Ascian has enough MP to pull off an Ultima cast without a bonus" ? Cause having something that can cast Ultima is probably something not left hanging around, considering the amount of damage that thing wreaks. Whoever has it has the Scions by the neck.

Given the sheer number of masks he's collected already, I find it unlikely that he's actually permanently eradicating Ascians as we've seen happen to Lahabrea and Nabriales. He's most likely just cutting down their borrowed bodies. Looks like he's killed Elidibus once, as well; at least, he's the only Ascian we've seen who uses a white mask.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Given the sheer number of masks he's collected already, I find it unlikely that he's actually permanently eradicating Ascians as we've seen happen to Lahabrea and Nabriales. He's most likely just cutting down their borrowed bodies. Looks like he's killed Elidibus once, as well; at least, he's the only Ascian we've seen who uses a white mask.

---

The white mask is part of Gaius' old helm... Elidibus wears a red mask and white robe

I started reading this thread not realizing it was so old. Damn. I love Lore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Okamimaru

The white mask is part of Gaius' old helm... Elidibus wears a red mask and white robe

---

Whups! Misrecalled, but yeah, that's right. Regardless, I still think that he's just been killing Ascian temporary bodies, not the Ascians themselves.