Minfillia Speculation

Wonder what we have to go forth and seek? Minfilia Shards? Friendly Eikons to summon? Ascians for a purging? The distant versions of the Twelve (Azim as the Doman version of Azeyma, for example) to unify them to save the day? Adoulin?

My bet is on The Truth™.

Hopefully it'll be something revealed to us directly - because Hydaelyn really owes us an in-depth explanation instead of manipulating the WoL in a manner similar to how a Primal/Eikon manipulates their servants...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

My bet is on The Truth™.

---

She's making no friends here then...

"We're going to directly meet Hydaelyn? Finally, we can learn The Truth™!"

"Go forth and seek The Truth™!"

"..."

Damned deities and their cryptic nonsense... If I'm face to face with God, I expect some bleedin' answers, not to be told to go looking for those answers! Why do you think I'm here in the first place?!

The odd part is in the patch trailer, Hydaelyn says "blessed children, go forth and seek"

she speaks plural so... WOL and Minfilla?

WOL has the same glow as Minfilla in the patch preview

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

She's making no friends here then...

"We're going to directly meet Hydaelyn? Finally, we can learn The Truth™!"

"Go forth and seek The Truth™!"

"..."

Damned deities and their cryptic nonsense... If I'm face to face with God, I expect some bleedin' answers, not to be told to go looking for those answers! Why do you think I'm here in the first place?!

---

If you want my honest, unironic opinion, that is exactly something FFXIV would do to leave us hanging. I am expecting it to be exactly that cryptic.

At this point, we get less cryptic answers from Elidibus than we do from Hydaelyn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

At this point, we get less cryptic answers from Elidibus than we do from Hydaelyn.

---

Are you saying you don't Trust In The Light™? We have always been doing The Right Thing™, so you should just Trust In The Light™ and everything will be fine!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

Are you saying you don't Trust In The Light™? We have always been doing The Right Thing™, so you should just Trust In The Light™ and everything will be fine!

---

By following Hydaelyn's path, we've been able to prevent massive death and destruction by primals, stopped the 14th legion's attempt to take over Eorzea, and even helped to bring about a change in the Dragonsong War. Elidibus is a loose cannon, but he did call forth the Warriors of Darkness and he was behind the Archbishop's actions. Motivations are unclear, but so far, following Hydaelyn's path has done much to protect the people of Eorzea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belhi

I can kind of see the Scions moving into a kind of official opposing order representing Hydaelyn in the way the Ascians do for Zodiark, minus the immortality. Im not convinced Minfilia is a prisoner of Hydaelyn. I suspect it will turn out that she has volunteered to fill whatever role the Mothercrystal needed her for.

---

Basically Lightning and Etro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delily

Motivations are unclear, but so far, following Hydaelyn's path has done much to protect the people of Eorzea.

---

Yeah, but have you not noticed the "good guys'" alarming tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater wherever villainous motivations are concerned?

Quote:

---

"You know your belief in the Twelve isn't that different from the beast tribes' belief in their Eikons, right?"

"You are Evil™, Gaius, and everything you say is a lie! Kill, die, kill!"

---

Quote:

---

"The Crystal Tower served as the foundation of Allag's perfect society, but actually it was going to hell in a handbasket before we resurrected Xande."

"Xande built Dalamud and destroyed the world! He was Evil™! Clearly the answer is that we should use the Crystal Tower to build a perfect society and not use it for Evil™!"

---

Quote:

---

"Sure, man and dragon once lived in harmony, but ultimately that just fomented Thordan's jealousy and drove Nidhogg mad with revenge."

"Thordan was Evil™, and for that matter, Nidhogg is (tragically) Evil™, too! Man and dragon should live in harmony again and just not be Evil™!"

---

Granted we're doing a little better on the followup for that last one, but I've stopped holding my breath waiting for a proper examination.

What great speculation thread everyone.

I'd like to point out the balancing of the "force" as well. Up until 3.1, we think of the Warrior of Light as part of the Scions and he/she is the counter point of the Ascians, but with the introduction of Warrior of Darkness, we start to see how the "chessboard" is like. So far, it seems like we know, despite whatever philosophy or grey area there might be, there are these opposing forces:

Hydaelyn vs. Zodiark
The Scions vs. The Ascians
Warrior of Light vs. Warrior of Dark

Now, if you think about the Ascians, they are a powerful force. We (at least I) don't know where they got their power from. Assuming it's from the Zodiark itself, comparing to them, the Scions are nothing. Will it be far fetch to think that Minfilia is finally receiving her "power" that is equivalent to the Ascians to counter that, regardless of whatever path that got her there (ie: people has been suggesting if she volunteered or not.)

Con't...

I am not suggesting this to be a perfect black/white, good vs. evil though. As a matter of fact I really rather it isn't because the Ascian's agenda isn't completely horrible, it's more their execution that is questionable.

Well...the Ascians are powerful, yes - but we're still waiting for them to get a solid victory that doesn't involve the WoL or Cid plot device overcoming all odds and miraculously beating them back. Final Fantasy games have a long history of antagonists who absolutely thrash the main character and their allies - so we really need more of that to better paint them as a threat and because it's so much more interesting than just having them put down at every turn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

snip

---

To be fair to the Ascians, Ser Zephirin 99% certainly would have killed us if it wasn't for a certain knight. Before the Vault, Lahabrea says "It's time for the Warrior of Light to die." Which means what happened at the end of the Vault was at least partly their idea.

The set-up was perfect. We hadn't regained the full Blessing to protect us, we were taken completely off-guard and with no time to properly react (not even to draw our weapons, which would be needed to, say, pop Hallowed Ground. Also, its implied the spear was moving *much* faster then the cutscene showed). That probably would have been *it* if it wasn't for...you know...

So I guess I'm saying its not for lack of trying. Also, I'm sensing a 'solid victory' for the Ascians would = end of Hydaelyn, so...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alisa180

To be fair to the Ascians, Ser Zephirin 99% certainly would have killed us if it wasn't for a certain knight. Before the Vault, Lahabrea says "It's time for the Warrior of Light to die." Which means what happened at the end of the Vault was at least partly their idea.

The set-up was perfect. We hadn't regained the full Blessing to protect us, we were taken completely off-guard and with no time to properly react (not even to draw our weapons, which would be needed to, say, pop Hallowed Ground. Also, its implied the spear was moving *much* faster then the cutscene showed). That probably would have been *it* if it wasn't for...you know...

So I guess I'm saying its not for lack of trying. Also, I'm sensing a 'solid victory' for the Ascians would = end of Hydaelyn, so...

---

No wait, lets dont get confused here. Is more than clear that was not that . Zephirin was only tring to avoid that we catch up Thordan. Dont get confused this was not an planified assesination of some kind.

Zephirin was pretty clearly trying to kill us. If that energy spear had hit us in the back it almost certainly would have been fatal. After all it cut through a shield and right through a person. What do you think it would have done to our exposed back?

Can you just imagine how bitter and annoyed Lahabrea was after that?
His perfect plan was foiled by literal plot armor.

I imagine he was seething and sulking on his own for weeks. Hence Igeyorhm harassing you at Bismarck instead.

I wish I could have seen it.

Poor Laha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belhi

Zephirin was pretty clearly trying to kill us. If that energy spear had hit us in the back it almost certainly would have been fatal. After all it cut through a shield and right through a person. What do you think it would have done to our exposed back?

---

tring to kill us and a planified assesitation are two different things.

I dont understand why everyone is bringing this discuccion now. Wast clear what happened on the vault?

We were chasing Thordan, Zephirin tried to stop us with a deadly atack despite we have might survive ( we fighted the orthers knights ) and then Hauchefaun came to save us.

I was actually doing some thinking on this topic. I agree that we haven't really seen a decisive, long-term Ascian victory yet. It's disappointing.

I mean, you might consider the Calamity. I suppose. Maybe. But even that wasn't a complete success.

However, Lahabrea gets pretty much exactly what he wants from the 2.0 Ex primal quests. And totally-not-Elidibus is on track to be getting what he wants from Ex (and now normal) Primals in 3.X, namely, for them to be out of the picture.

Which leads me to the blatant conclusion that whenever the Ascians are using you, they are almost guaranteed to get what they want done at utmost efficiency and, therefore, should really be doing it more often. They just need to give you a bit of misinformation, so that you make a few mistakes, and, given your propensity for sucking up Hydaelyn's energy, boom! You'll end up causing the Rejoining all on your own. That's a lot less effort than trying to stop you.
Disclaimer: I actually think this is exactly what Lahabrea was doing in 3.0 and why, for the most part, he was leaving you be. He basically admits to it in ARF, saying you just cause more chaos by constantly eliminating the primals, furthering His purposes. Igeyorhm more just thinks you're a ball of contradictions, so she might not be in on it.
Elidibus also seems to have picked up on this, hence the whole WoD thing. But the WoD don't have our plot armor, so we're still more reliable.

I did some thinking with what we've seen and the patch trailer and reached another hypothesis.

Matoya: To win a war, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. To fight, to kill, and if necessary, to die.

In light of this and Minfilia apparently disappearing in meta world, in front of Hydaelyn the crystal, perhaps Hydaelyn is going to sacrifice herself to buy us more time or push back the darkness, and Minfilia is going to take her place as the "core consciousness" of the Mothercrystal, so to speak? We know Hydaelyn is rather weak, and perhaps she knows it's only a matter of time before she kicks the bucket (so to speak), but by having another take her place things will get better?

... yeah, I know, lacking a bit of SAN... but no matter what, I do not have a good feeling about this...

I don't particularly like Minfilia, admittedly, but I only want her to be sacrificed if the 'big reveal' is going to involve telling us that mortals should not be sacrificing themselves in the name of divine entities/noble causes. It shouldn't really be something to aspire to. If Hydaelyn does indeed take over Minfilia or 'absorb' her somehow then how is that any different to what the Ascians do on behalf of Zodiark? To me that simply implies that both Hydaelyn and Zodiark are parasites exploiting mortals as willing or unwilling pawns in their ongoing feud. Even if one side is better than the other...it's still a case of mortals being exploited.

Obviously I'll wait and see how it's all handled. 3.2 does excite me quite a bit - and I'm hoping they deliver on the promise of a 'darker' expansion as we push towards the finale of the Dragonsong War.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

I did some thinking with what we've seen and the patch trailer and reached another hypothesis.

Matoya: To win a war, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. To fight, to kill, and if necessary, to die.

In light of this and Minfilia apparently disappearing in meta world, in front of Hydaelyn the crystal, perhaps Hydaelyn is going to sacrifice herself to buy us more time or push back the darkness, and Minfilia is going to take her place as the "core consciousness" of the Mothercrystal, so to speak? We know Hydaelyn is rather weak, and perhaps she knows it's only a matter of time before she kicks the bucket (so to speak), but by having another take her place things will get better?

... yeah, I know, lacking a bit of SAN... but no matter what, I do not have a good feeling about this...

---

I've been considering this possibility too. It would actually make a lot of her actions and the things we have been put through lately make a lot more sense. Perhaps even the strengthening of the Blessing was to get the WoL to a point where they could stand without direct protection of Hydaelyn.

The other thing Im considering is that Zodiark doesn't actually seem to be active yet. The Ascians are trying to bring him back but I get the feeling that perhaps he is in a 'dead/dormant' state himself. Perhaps this is Hydaelyn reaching the same state and in her last moments she is giving everything she has left to her agents still in the battle. After all she really seems to be pushing for us to think for ourselves a lot. Plus there is the other translations of those lines.

Really its impossible to see anything conclusive at this point but I think its highly likely Hydaelyn will be out of the fight, at least actively, once 3.2 hits. What will be REALLY interesting is if whatever her final play is throws a spanner in the works for the Ascians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Obviously I'll wait and see how it's all handled. 3.2 does excite me quite a bit - and I'm hoping they deliver on the promise of a 'darker' expansion as we push towards the finale of the Dragonsong War.

---

To be honest HW has already been a lot darker than ARR was. We have had a lot darker themes and a lot more death in HW than we had in 2.0. Hell even the history of the Dragonsong war itself and what it has done to both societies is pretty damn dark. Just with dusk vigil we have people freezing to death, cannibalism and political manoeuvring leading to an innocent woman being thrown off a cliff as a heretic leading to her husband going mad. That's ignoring the abuse of the poor and children freezing to death on the streets. Ishgard is a pretty dark place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

I did some thinking with what we've seen and the patch trailer and reached another hypothesis.

Matoya: To win a war, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. To fight, to kill, and if necessary, to die.

---

Yep, that was my very first thought after being happy about second Best Ascian, of course. I posted it in the trailer thread. I agree. I think it is a quote with multiple meanings, referring to multiple characters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

In light of this and Minfilia apparently disappearing in meta world, in front of Hydaelyn the crystal, perhaps Hydaelyn is going to sacrifice herself to buy us more time or push back the darkness, and Minfilia is going to take her place as the "core consciousness" of the Mothercrystal, so to speak?

---

I've been thinking for a while now that it would be more in-character for Hydaelyn to sacrifice herself for us than the other way around. Either way, Minfilia needs to come back to us whole after all this or I'm liable to turn coats and ask Eldibus for tips on rewriting the laws of the universe. Barring that, the initial reveal and Thancred's stoic and tearless acceptance of her sacrifice should at least be in separate scenes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

I'm liable to turn coats and ask Eldibus for tips on rewriting the laws of the universe.

---

Wait, you mean you haven't been doing that already?

I was the only one?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

I've been thinking for a while now that it would be more in-character for Hydaelyn to sacrifice herself for us than the other way around. Either way, Minfilia needs to come back to us whole after all this or I'm liable to turn coats and ask Eldibus for tips on rewriting the laws of the universe. Barring that, the initial reveal and Thancred's stoic and tearless acceptance of her sacrifice should at least be in separate scenes.

---

From what I've seen, there are three prime possibilities:

1. Hydaelyn is speaking through Minfilia.
2. Hydaelyn has possessed Minfilia.
3. Hydaelyn is going to sacrifice herself and Minfilia is going to take her place.

If it's 1, not so bad, though I'd question why Hydaelyn is speaking to us through Minfilia when we are apparently closer to her through the Blessing.

If it's 2, I'm going full deicide mode against every deity. We're not puppets, tools, or chess pieces to be used and sacrificed when needed.

If it's 3... I'm not sure how to feel. I want to continue with the "honoring wishes" thing, but at the same time, there has to be a point where you stop making sacrifices in the name of victory. Again, this comes back to the "we're not tools" argument - Hydaelyn may sacrifice herself, but likely only because she knows Minfilia will take her place (at Hydaelyn's behest, of course). At some point, you have to rebel against your role as a tool and stop accepting sacrifices as necessary, and instead try and find a better way. We're the legendary Warrior of Light - we can slay gods and demons as morning exercise, but we can't save a single life?

EDIT
If it turns out to be 3, I will go full Lingering Will and break a lot of furniture. Or at least try out Sky, Stone, and Sea, since I can't be anyone's senpai and need to vent my frustration and rage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Wait, you mean you haven't been doing that already?

I was the only one?

---

Y'all side with Elidibus if Hydaelyn turns out Evil. I'm heading to Garlemauld and we're going to end the age of God's once and for all by compleatly destroying them FF13 style.

I may be the WoL and an Echo user, but I'll be damned if I turn into a L'cie pawn of some so called god/godess that breaks us then throws us away.

Cilia is welcome to join of course since I intend to userp the Emperor and redo their BS Hierarchy afterwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I intend to userp the Emperor and redo their BS Hierarchy afterwards.

---

Just be sure you don't kill the Emperor, unless you've already found the Jade Passage and have gathered allies to storm Pandemonium.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

Just be sure you don't kill the Emperor, unless you've already found the Jade Passage and have gathered allies to storm Pandemonium.

---

Why kill him when I can slap an Allagan Nero Link on him and make him do as I say? Conquest is to bloody when mind control is a real thing.

Removing/killing the Emperor will simply cause another power struggle that will lead to countless innocents on both sides perishing. As Varis has aptly stated the WoL and Varis' goals align rather well - they simply differ on the method used to deal with the Primal/Eikon threat. It's heavily implied that the Garleans know more than we do about their nature - which would explain their aggression and lack of tolerance. The same lack of tolerance that is often criticised by Eorzean but is displayed by Eorzeans themselves - albeit in different ways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Removing/killing the Emperor will simply cause another power struggle that will lead to countless innocents on both sides perishing. As Varis has aptly stated the WoL and Varis' goals align rather well - they simply differ on the method used to deal with the Primal/Eikon threat. It's heavily implied that the Garleans know more than we do about their nature - which would explain their aggression and lack of tolerance. The same lack of tolerance that is often criticised by Eorzean but is displayed by Eorzeans themselves - albeit in different ways.

---

The Anti-Eikon War comes first. Slapping Varis with a Nero-link to make him "Decree" that all annexed territories be treated better and abuse of Lower Ranked Citizens be under punishment of military tribunal and execution comes later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

The Anti-Eikon War comes first. Slapping Varis with a Nero-link to make him "Decree" that all annexed territories be treated better and abuse of Lower Ranked Citizens be under punishment of military tribunal and execution comes later.

---

Which is silly, given that Eorzea doesn't treat 'low ranking citizens' much better than Garlemald does. Then again so far it has been shown that a lot of the poor and destitute often only have themselves to blame so it could very well be the case in Garlemald as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Y'all side with Elidibus if Hydaelyn turns out Evil. I'm heading to Garlemauld and we're going to end the age of God's once and for all by compleatly destroying them FF13 style.

I may be the WoL and an Echo user, but I'll be damned if I turn into a L'cie pawn of some so called god/godess that breaks us then throws us away.

Cilia is welcome to join of course since I intend to userp the Emperor and redo their BS Hierarchy afterwards.

---

What's "BS" about their hierarchy? Also, how does their hierarchy make them any worse than any of the other city-states? I don't follow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

What's "BS" about their hierarchy? Also, how does their hierarchy make them any worse than any of the other city-states? I don't follow.

---

Anyone who isn't a natural born Garlen Citizen (Aka, Pure Blood Garlemald Heritage/ Not an Annexed Territory) you have few if any proper human (Mortal?) rights in the cast system. Dohma rebelled because of this and as such was burned to the ground in retaliation. Gaius van Baelsar was even frequently recognized by his subordinates for looking past blood and focusing on merits. Which to be specifically referenced by one of his Tribunes near confirms how unusual that is.

A prolonged period of Military Service (Ala The Roman Empire) can earn "Full Citizen" status for their bloodline assuming they survive. Which considering most typically treat them as cannon fodder that is extremely unlikely.

Add that to how poorly the civilians are treated as well (It is frequently suggested the military take.... inapropriate liberties.... with Civilian Women for example) then we have atrocities on all fronts.

Their Hierarchy is literally the worst parts of The Roman Imperial, Sengoku, and Third Reich Hierarchies all thrown together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

-snip-.

---

That isn't terribly different from how it is in Eorzea, though. It's also very likely to be coloured by bias by those seeking 'freedom'. Ul'dah and Ishgard are the worst culprits for outright discrimination, especially against those who are seen as poor. Many of the impoverished either turn to crime or are pushed into being conscripted for the sake of a 'better life'. Sure, they may get a 'fair' wage but they're still dying on behalf of politics. As for 'inappropriate liberties' that sort of thing is very, very likely to be the case for pretty much every major armed force present in Hydaelyn. It's an unfortunate evil in war - and FFXIV doesn't shy away from hinting at such things as taking place.

My poor FF2 reference is sad and crying in the corner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Their Hierarchy is literally the worst parts of The Roman Imperial, Sengoku, and Third Reich Hierarchies all thrown together.

---

As Theodric pointed out, it doesn't sound hugely different to the caste systems operating in Ul'dah (with respect to the refugees especially), Ishgard (with its strong religious oppression) or the rampant criminality in Vylbrand or, for that matter, the warlust of the Alamhigans. If the game had you up against any of them exclusively as antagonists, you'd no doubt have the same impression.

Personally, I rather bore of 'egalitarian' regimes in games being set up on some kind of pedestal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

My poor FF2 reference is sad and crying in the corner.

---

Sorry Fen, had to look up the FF2 reference first. FF1-4 are the only ones I've never played. >_>

And I'll make sure to have those set up for the inevitable FF6 moment where the "Control Crown" malfunctions and turns some unsuspecting vassal into an insane, pyromaniac, clown too. Better safe than sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

My poor FF2 reference is sad and crying in the corner.

---

I got it! I understood that reference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenral

My poor FF2 reference is sad and crying in the corner.

---

Don't worry, I got it. I'm one of the 5 people on the planet who loved FF2.

. ..Which also leads me to great irritation when people always say Kain was the first DRG/Highwind in the series.